The Nehor Posted May 30, 2018 Posted May 30, 2018 4 hours ago, hope_for_things said: For many that are opposed to the Church being financially transparent, when things do change and the church becomes more financially transparent in the future, I expect that these same people will be in favor of that transparency. For some, its all about allegiance to the current practices of the institution. Are you implying that is a bad thing?
carbon dioxide Posted May 30, 2018 Posted May 30, 2018 4 hours ago, hope_for_things said: With annual revenue estimated in the $30B range, Where did you get this from?
rockpond Posted May 30, 2018 Posted May 30, 2018 I should add the following in case it has not been pointed out somewhere else in the thread: Looking at the list of LLC's in which the stocks are held, I have to wonder if those might be managed by Deseret Trust Company which would mean that only a portion of those stocks will ultimately belong to the church. 2
carbon dioxide Posted May 30, 2018 Posted May 30, 2018 "MormonLeaks™ has uncovered 13 LLCs that appear to have ties to the Mormon Church. All of these companies save one filed an SEC Form 13F for year ending December 31, 2017, revealing their holdings in the United States stock market. The most recent Form 13F filing for the other company — Clifton Park Capital Management, LLC (CPCM) — was filed for year ending December 31, 2015. The combined value of each company at the filing of their most recent year end 13F is approximately $32,769,914,000." So what we have is 13 LLC that have a combined value of almost 33 billion and they have TIES to the LDS Church. That does mean the LDS Church owns 100% of this money. These LLC might have ties to other organizations as well. Need more information. 1
Bernard Gui Posted May 30, 2018 Posted May 30, 2018 12 minutes ago, bluebell said: Before we can criticize the church for the amount of money it spends on humanitarian aid compared to how much money it has, we would need to know how much of it's money is actually liquid and what it's annual expenses are compared to what it 'earns' annually. Billions or millions of dollars in tithes and offerings don't mean anything if the church has billions or millions of dollars in bills. Being worth billions or millions doesn't mean anything (in regards to what the church can spend on humanitarian aid each year) if that worth isn't liquid. Also, consider that there are considerable man-hours of donated member service that have monetary value. 1
cinepro Posted May 30, 2018 Posted May 30, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said: Absolute hands-down favorite: Hasbro, makers of My Little Pony, and Lions Gate Entertainment, who did the recent My Little Pony movie. . I remember when I was younger, there were rumors the Church had invested in a grocery store chain, which obviously meant the Church had invested in stores that sold alcohol and cigarettes. That's the problem with the way investments work. Any amount of diversification quickly puts you on the path to realizing the Church might have invested tithing dollars into "John Wick*." *Which, it should be noted, was very profitable, so "yay!" Edited May 30, 2018 by cinepro
Amulek Posted May 30, 2018 Posted May 30, 2018 6 minutes ago, rockpond said: To put the numbers in perspective... $32 billion at a 6% return per year (that's conservative) would give you $1.92 billion in annual investment income. $40 million per year donated to humanitarian aid represents just 2% of only the income produced by the Church's stock market holdings. What percentage would make you happy?
rockpond Posted May 30, 2018 Posted May 30, 2018 1 minute ago, carbon dioxide said: "MormonLeaks™ has uncovered 13 LLCs that appear to have ties to the Mormon Church. All of these companies save one filed an SEC Form 13F for year ending December 31, 2017, revealing their holdings in the United States stock market. The most recent Form 13F filing for the other company — Clifton Park Capital Management, LLC (CPCM) — was filed for year ending December 31, 2015. The combined value of each company at the filing of their most recent year end 13F is approximately $32,769,914,000." So what we have is 13 LLC that have a combined value of almost 33 billion and they have TIES to the LDS Church. That does mean the LDS Church owns 100% of this money. These LLC might have ties to other organizations as well. Need more information. Yeah... I submitted a post just one minute before yours --- If we don't know how the companies are tied to the church they could be managed by DTC which would mean that all those assets do not actually belong to the church. 2
rockpond Posted May 30, 2018 Posted May 30, 2018 1 minute ago, Amulek said: What percentage would make you happy? Not sure why that is relevant. I certainly don't want the Brethren making financial decisions based on what would make me happy.
JLHPROF Posted May 30, 2018 Posted May 30, 2018 5 hours ago, FearlessFixxer said: Personally, It matters not to me how much the church has in the stock market, but I think their tithe payers have a right to know. No, they don't. God's command to us is to pay tithes. Once we do that our part is finished. We have been obedient to the relevant laws. Beyond that is not our concern. God's command to his representatives concerning tithing use is for them to obey. And he will hold them accountable for it. We all have our stewardships. Going beyond them never works out well. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted May 30, 2018 Posted May 30, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, Analytics said: That argument only makes sense when one thinks taxes are theft rather than legitimate dues we owe to our democratic society in order to finance the common good. When an organization receives the benefits of society (e.g. paved roads, police protection, fire protection, a functioning legal system, military protection, etc.) but doesn't pay the taxes that are required to pay for them, it sure as heck is being subsidized. That is because the rest of us have to pay more to make up for the fact that they are getting a free ride. Such reasoning as the above is simplistic because it fails to account for other factors. In the case of churches, they are allowed tax exemptions because of the axiomatic assumption that they benefit society in non-quantifiable, intangible ways. They provide for the poor and needy, thereby reducing the burden on government. They motivate people to give volunteer service. They encourage decency and morality among their memberships and generally promote good citizenship. They fill a fundamental need that many people have in their lives that government cannot or will not meet. These are factors that hostile secularists will be loathe to admit but are valid considerations nonetheless. Edited May 30, 2018 by Scott Lloyd 2
strappinglad Posted May 30, 2018 Posted May 30, 2018 Are fast offerings not counted as money used for the poor and needy? If 1 million families in the developed countries give $40 per month FO , there's 40 million per month right there. 1
carbon dioxide Posted May 30, 2018 Posted May 30, 2018 11 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: No, they don't. God's command to us is to pay tithes. Once we do that our part is finished. We have been obedient to the relevant laws. Beyond that is not our concern. God's command to his representatives concerning tithing use is for them to obey. And he will hold them accountable for it. We all have our stewardships. Going beyond them never works out well. I think the majority don't care and I would be included in that. Tithes and offerings are given by our choice with the faith that the funds will be used wisely and correctly to build the kingdom. We don't know all the needs of the Church through the world and the church should not have to waste its time attempting to appease every tith payer out there. The Church would never be able to make everyone happy as we all have our preferences of where we would like to see the Church use its money. Some might say give more people to the poor. Others might say give more money to build temples. Others might say they want more money allocated to ward budgets. No matter what the Church does, someone is not going to be happy so better just do as the Church does.
strappinglad Posted May 30, 2018 Posted May 30, 2018 Did you all just see what the Church spent on Conference ? Unbelievable.... Oh wait...my bad... I misread... http://thefederalist.com/2018/05/24/andrew-mccabe-spent-70000-table-fbi-hid-congress/
bluebell Posted May 30, 2018 Posted May 30, 2018 16 minutes ago, strappinglad said: Are fast offerings not counted as money used for the poor and needy? If 1 million families in the developed countries give $40 per month FO , there's 40 million per month right there. It looks like the church sees fast offerings as separate from donations to humanitarian aid.
RevTestament Posted May 30, 2018 Posted May 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Storm Rider said: You have lost me - who demands "disclosure of membership earnings"? I have been a member for decades and not a single person has ever demanded to know what I made....ever. The Church can make assumptions about what people make, they cannot "know" anything. If I wanted to make some assumptions about the Church's finances there is nothing stopping me. Your logic is off on this point. In the past the Church has asked financial disclosure from some of its tithe payers - probably usually the more affluent. This practice was stopped, and bishops are instructed not to do this. However, since tithe paying is a law applying to members and not the church body as a whole, I don't see a reciprocal requirement of disclosure on behalf of the Church, although it sounds fair. i believe if the Church body wishes it, it has a right to know. otherwise there is no such "right."
Bernard Gui Posted May 30, 2018 Posted May 30, 2018 16 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Such reasoning as the above is simplistic because it fails to account for other factors. In the case of churches, they are allowed tax exemptions because of the axiomatic assumption that they benefit society in non-quantifiable, intangible ways. They provide for the poor and needy, thereby reducing the burden in government. They motivate people to give volunteer service. They encourage decency and morality among their memberships and generally promote good citizenship. They fill a fundamental need that many people have in their lives that government cannot or will not meet. These are factors that hostile secularists will be loathe to admit but are valid considerations nonetheless. A friend is the pastor of music at a local church....a paid position....in addition to the pastor and his wife and assistants, youth pastors, praise band, organist, office staff, etc. A substantial portion of the Church budget (funded by donations and some commercial activities) goes to salaries and retirement. The Church does a great deal of good in the community and sends people on mission trips. As a musician, I have been paid by numerous local churches for my services. Given the LDS practice of having volunteer leaders that cover those areas, I would assume the percentage of money’s to paid LDS Church ecclesiastical and support personnel is considerably less than that of other comparable charitable organizations.
Benjamin Seeker Posted May 30, 2018 Posted May 30, 2018 (edited) In this discussion of whether the church should be transparent or not, it’s worth considering Malachi 3:8-10: 8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. 9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. 10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. These verses get quoted pretty often, but rarely do we hear the context that these passages were directed at the priests who hadn’t properly handled tithes/offerings. While the church may be within its rights to keep their finances private, in doing so it may ask for more trust than should be given, considering the fallibility of organizations and individuals. Edited May 30, 2018 by Benjamin Seeker 3
Bernard Gui Posted May 30, 2018 Posted May 30, 2018 (edited) 19 minutes ago, bluebell said: It looks like the church sees fast offerings as separate from donations to humanitarian aid. I am out of the bishopric loop, but during the many years I was in, fast offerings were zeroed out every month. At the end of the month, if there was a surplus it went to the stake to cover wards that might have a deficit. The same thing happened at the stake level. No FO funds were used for administrative purposes. Current leaders on this board can update this information now that all donations go directly to a SLC. I would not be surprised that the Church bolsters the FO fund from other sources because while the disbursements are to be used wisely there is no set FO budget. The cash flow depends on the local needs and probably fluctuates widely depending on Church-wide needs. As a bishop, I greatly loved and appreciated the FO system. It allowed me to focus the entire resources of the Church, as it were, on one family or individual. FO assistance should be a factor in determining the total amount of LDS Church charitable giving. Edited May 30, 2018 by Bernard Gui 2
Exiled Posted May 30, 2018 Posted May 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Storm Rider said: You have lost me - who demands "disclosure of membership earnings"? I have been a member for decades and not a single person has ever demanded to know what I made....ever. The Church can make assumptions about what people make, they cannot "know" anything. If I wanted to make some assumptions about the Church's finances there is nothing stopping me. Your logic is off on this point. The church requires 10% as tithes. There might be some discrepancy between gross or net but from that the church can know within a reasonable degree of certainty what the member earns per year. I think most are honest with the 10% figure regardless of whether they are gross or net. So, it seems that the church knows what the members make through the tithing disclosure. There is no similar mechanism for the member. I don't expect you to understand the logic.
Marginal Gains Posted May 30, 2018 Posted May 30, 2018 $32,000,000,000 would fund 800 years humanitarian spending (at current rates).
Bernard Gui Posted May 30, 2018 Posted May 30, 2018 4 minutes ago, Benjamin Seeker said: While the church may be within its rights to keep their finances private, in doing so it may ask for more trust than perhaps should be given, considering the fallibility of organizations and individuals. As a bishop and ward clerk, it was made clear that any monkey business with funds would result in loss of membership and maybe prosecution. We were audited regularly. Do you have any evidence higher officials or our business entities are treated any differently? 2
Bernard Gui Posted May 30, 2018 Posted May 30, 2018 4 minutes ago, Exiled said: The church requires 10% as tithes. There might be some discrepancy between gross or net but from that the church can know within a reasonable degree of certainty what the member earns per year. I think most are honest with the 10% figure regardless of whether they are gross or net. So, it seems that the church knows what the members make through the tithing disclosure. There is no similar mechanism for the member. I don't expect you to understand the logic. What would be the Church’s interest in what members earn? Why would the Church care? Who would want or need that information? At what level would it be needed? How would it be used? 3
Bernard Gui Posted May 30, 2018 Posted May 30, 2018 4 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said: $32,000,000,000 would fund 800 years humanitarian spending (at current rates). Or fewer if things get really bad.
Bernard Gui Posted May 30, 2018 Posted May 30, 2018 (edited) 26 minutes ago, RevTestament said: In the past the Church has asked financial disclosure from some of its tithe payers - probably usually the more affluent. This practice was stopped, and bishops are instructed not to do this. However, since tithe paying is a law applying to members and not the church body as a whole, I don't see a reciprocal requirement of disclosure on behalf of the Church, although it sounds fair. i believe if the Church body wishes it, it has a right to know. otherwise there is no such "right." When was this? Not when I have been in bishoprics....since 1975. Edited May 30, 2018 by Bernard Gui
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