changed Posted June 10, 2018 Author Posted June 10, 2018 (edited) 28 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said: Is it ok to strive to be an angel? Sure if that is what you aspire to be. Just as it is ok for a family member to be a school teacher and not a medical doctor. Be what you want to be. That really is the beauty of the different degrees of glory. We all get want we really want and deserve. Especially if we know ahead of time what is what and what is required. A man can not complain he was not allowed to go to medical school knowing ahead of time that hard work in undergraduate classes was required and good grades are needed. One can not just blow off college courses, get bad grades, do horrible on tests and then apply to medical school and expect to get in. Thankfully to obtain celestial glory is not nearly as hard as to get into medical school. There is no limited application pool or spots. There is no tests of knowledge and only the smarter ones get in. The dumbest people can make celestial glory. All they have to do is apply (repent and be baptized) and get past the interviews (keep the commandments and things like so they pass judgement) and they will get in. Those that did not get a shot at understanding the full plan get their shot in the spirit world. I think everything is fair and just. God sends nobody to a lower kingdom. We send ourselves in the end by our own choices. and those who have been abused, who have no family to be sealed to, who end up with anxiety and mental disorders and kill themselves because they were tried beyond their limits of endurance... the victims of war, the refugees, those not brought up in any church ... how about those who cannot be happy without being sealed to their mother/father/brother/spouse - if your family chooses outer darkness etc. will you be happy? you did not really love them anyways? how exactly does that work out? just get sealed to a stranger and forget everyone you knew in this life? just? there is nothing just or merciful in this life for many people. some get the easy route, others are tried beyond their limits of endurance. Edited June 10, 2018 by changed 1
Calm Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 1 hour ago, changed said: so.... years from now if I am not angry at g-d anymore, ... haha, I should start a poll, how many here think g-d would take the likes of me back? And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.... It does not refine - these trials - they kill you. Why wouldn't he if you desire it (loved him again)?
changed Posted June 10, 2018 Author Posted June 10, 2018 Just now, Calm said: Why wouldn't he if you desire it (loved him again)? I desire to be with my family. I do not desire to dish out tests that do not refine, I do not desire to leave children helpless and hopeless. I do not desire anyone to be in outer darkness - how could anyone be happy when they are eternally separated from their own brothers and sisters? There is no way to win here.
Calm Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 (edited) 13 hours ago, changed said: I desire to be with my family. I do not desire to dish out tests that do not refine, I do not desire to leave children helpless and hopeless. I do not desire anyone to be in outer darkness - how could anyone be happy when they are eternally separated from their own brothers and sisters? There is no way to win here. If your family desires to be together in the eternities, they will likely desire also to be with God who is the one to make that happen in the best way (arrogant assumption on my part that I am right and you are wrong in this, but it seems much more logical to me that God would structure life to promote a beautiful eternity rather than a so-so one for most while only a few getthe best). It may be impossible for some people to accept in the here and now that God is actually loving, that it is not about tests, but growth and awareness so we receive the ability to be able to truly live together as one...not exactly a quality most people in mortality can manage from what I have seen (and yes, I understand how disgusting this may sound to those who have been made to suffer by others' wickedness as well as suffering from natural causes such as cancer and birth defects and natural disasters what appears to be needlessly If God is truly omnipotent), but it being impossible now doesn't mean that when we die and our understanding of eternity opens up, we still won't be able to understand why horrible things happen to good people. There is, imo, no reason to assume eternity will be much like mortality, though it may take time for us to,adjust to making decisions based on an eternal viewpoint...unless our memories of who we were and what we went through in the preexistence are restored prior to resurrection. If that happens, death may feel like waking up from an intense, very vivid dream (I have some that have felt very realistic that were extremely traumatic and where the feelings that were created carry on into the next day until I have a strong emotional response that shifts my preoccupation with the Dream experience; I had a dream when I was about four that still troubles me when I think about it). What could you do in eternity even if you were limited like you are now if you could live forever in a perfect body? How much time does it take to learn from our mistakes? Even if ten lifetimes, wehave that long and much, much more to learn and in an environment where the wicked have no way to hurt us if we choose not to let them. Or so we are taught in the LDS faith. I choose to believe this and have this hope and trust in the Lord. I think I can understand when others can't find a way to trust God. There are ways that I lost my ability to trust my parents in that it became obvious to me they found it impossible to relate to me as an individual, without the self imposed filter of interpretation of what to expect from me and why I chose to act certain ways. I experienced real despair for a time when I came to realize there would never be anyone in the world who would be able to truly understand me rather than seeing mostly a reflection of themselves (and I would be doing the same to them). I try to imagine what it would be like if I expanded that distrust into my complete relationship with them and then try to imagine applying that distrust to God. I don't know if this comes even close or if it is more like chronic severe anxiety compared to temporary worry about something going wrong, where the experience is not just more intense, but of a fundamental ly different quality. Either way, I don't assume people are sinful if they don't trust or love or even believe in God. Edited June 10, 2018 by Calm 3
RevTestament Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 1 hour ago, changed said: and those who have been abused, who have no family to be sealed to, who end up with anxiety and mental disorders and kill themselves because they were tried beyond their limits of endurance... the victims of war, the refugees, those not brought up in any church ... how about those who cannot be happy without being sealed to their mother/father/brother/spouse - if your family chooses outer darkness etc. will you be happy? you did not really love them anyways? how exactly does that work out? just get sealed to a stranger and forget everyone you knew in this life? just? there is nothing just or merciful in this life for many people. some get the easy route, others are tried beyond their limits of endurance. 1 Corinthians 10:13 13 There hath no temptation ataken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be btempted above that ye are able; but will with the ctemptation also make a way to descape, that ye may be able to ebear it.
Popular Post california boy Posted June 10, 2018 Popular Post Posted June 10, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, changed said: so.... years from now if I am not angry at g-d anymore, ... haha, I should start a poll, how many here think g-d would take the likes of me back? And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.... It does not refine - these trials - they kill you. There is a scene in a movie that I really like. A young missionary is trying to help someone who is struggling very much like you. He tells her that when he was a kid, he used to look at the comics with a magnifying glass. It looked like it was all just a bunch of dots that had no rhyme or reason to them. But when you step back, you see a picture. All those dots suddenly made sense. God's perspective is not our perspective. I am going to make a prediction. One day, you will be able to step back and see that what you are going through is making you the person you now are and will become. And this is the most difficult part to now accept. One day, you will thank God. What I can't predict is how that change will happen. But it will. Maybe what you are struggling against so hard is not what you should be struggling for. Maybe who you now think you should be will change. Maybe what you think you should be doing will change. Maybe you will not feel like you have to be who others tell you that you must be. Maybe you will find peace in who you are and who you are becoming. Peace comes in many forms and from many directions. And maybe some day, you will be reaching out to hug another who has suffered. It gets better. Trust God. Trust yourself. Edited June 10, 2018 by california boy 8
RevTestament Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 12 hours ago, changed said: I desire to be with my family. I do not desire to dish out tests that do not refine, I do not desire to leave children helpless and hopeless. I do not desire anyone to be in outer darkness - how could anyone be happy when they are eternally separated from their own brothers and sisters? There is no way to win here. Yeshua came to earth from Heaven didn't He? He is our spiritual brother isn't He? Being perfect yet able to visit with those who are not perfect, to know them, and to have friends. I don't think inheriting a different kingdom means you will never see your family again nor live with them. I kinda think it has more to do with authority. You may have more authority in a higher kingdom. One in a higher kingdom may be more of a blessing to family members in a lower kingdom, as they can help them understand God better. If Yeshua can see everybody, I see no reason why someone in the celestial kingdom cannot. One in the telestial kingdom may not be able to visit everybody, but I believe it is different vice versa. I don't envision the kingdoms as being places where we go to be separated from everyone else. I actually view these kingdoms as having almost infinite sub-levels. We each receive according to our works, and in the house of the Father are many rooms - not just three. That obviously would not mean that we are eternally separated from everyone else. We derive most of our happiness from our relationships - God doesn't seek to eternally sever those relationships, but to bless those who have chosen to follow Him. 1
Bernard Gui Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 On 5/28/2018 at 5:40 PM, cinepro said: Honestly, I don't think the LDS conception of the degrees of glory and families being "together forever" holds up to much scrutiny. I'm surprised it's lasted this long. Even in the LDS plan, people in the different kingdoms get to be "together forever." So if a husband and wife (Bob and Cathy) die and both end up in the Telestial Kingdom, they'll still be together forever. According to LDS teachings, they'll still recognize each other and remember their earth life together, and they'll have 100% operational bodies. So Bob and Cathy can still hang out and play checkers and probably even have sex (their bodies are fully operational according to Alma 40.) Apparently what Bob and Cathy can't do is have "eternal increase", which appears to be a euphemism for "spirit babies." But there are lots of married couples on Earth who don't seem to want children, or are happy with the three or four they already have. So these people might be happier not having billions of spirit babies to watch over and answer their prayers. This makes the message a little more muddled. If the trick isn't to reach the Celestial Kingdom, but instead we just need to end up in the same Kingdom, then it's more of a strategic plan than an all-out race to the top. I don’t remember you expressing this deep of a level of cynicism before. Makes me very sad. Given our limited knowledge of what our eternal nature will be and what eternal increase means, your description of eternity is more a caricature, a tawdry one even. This has more of the ring of truth to me.... Quote Man is the child of God, formed in the divine image and endowed with divine attributes, and even as the infant son of an earthly father and mother is capable in due time of becoming a man, so the undeveloped offspring of celestial parentage is capable, by experience through ages and aeons, of evolving into a God. https://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/02/the-origin-of-man?lang=eng
Bernard Gui Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 (edited) I’m surprised no one has mentioned Elder Uchtdorf’s “poof” talk...I know......the “poofs” were edited out. I felt they made his words more endearing, but that is irrelevant. I take great hope and courage in this and also from my reading of Alma 7....not only as relief from my sorrows but also from the sorrows I have caused others. We should not make the error of believing “Christ’s atonement is for everyone but me.” Quote So, when you are encompassed by sorrows and grief, behold the Man. When you feel lost or forgotten, behold the Man. When you are despairing, deserted, doubting, damaged, or defeated, behold the Man. He will comfort you. He will heal you and give meaning to your journey. He will pour out His Spirit and fill your heart with exceeding joy. He gives “power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength.” When we truly behold the Man, we learn of Him and seek to align our lives with Him. We repent and strive to refine our natures and daily grow a little closer to Him. We trust Him. We show our love for Him by keeping His commandments and by living up to our sacred covenants. In other words, we become His disciples. His refining light saturates our souls. His grace uplifts us. Our burdens are lightened, our peace deepened. When we truly behold the Man, we have the promise of a blessed future that inspires and upholds us through the bends and bumps in life’s journey. Looking back, we will recognize that there is a divine pattern, that the dots really connect. As you accept His sacrifice, become His disciple, and finally reach the end of your earthly journey, what will become of the sorrows you have endured in this life? [Poof!] They will be gone. The disappointments, betrayals, persecutions you have faced? [Poof!] Gone. The suffering, heartache, guilt, shame, and anguish you have passed through? [Poof!] Gone. [Poof!] Forgotten. Is it any wonder that “we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ … that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins”? Quote Alma 7:11 And he shall go forth, suffering pains and afflictions and temptations of every kind; and this that the word might be fulfilled which saith he will take upon him the pains and the sicknesses of his people. 12 And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities. 13 Now the Spirit knoweth all things; nevertheless the Son of God suffereth according to the flesh that he might take upon him the sins of his people, that he might blot out their transgressions according to the power of his deliverance; and now behold, this is the testimony which is in me. Edited June 10, 2018 by Bernard Gui 1
cinepro Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 28 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: I don’t remember you expressing this deep of a level of cynicism before. Makes me very sad. Given our limited knowledge of what our eternal nature will be and what eternal increase means, your description of eternity is more a caricature, a tawdry one even. This has more of the ring of truth to me.... I understand that the LDS theory of the afterlife sounds better when couched in oratory and euphemism. But I don't accept that using plain language is "cynicism." I also disagree that we have "limited knowledge of what our eternal nature will be." The Church makes tons of claims about what our "eternal nature will be" and what we need to do to optimize it. If we have limited knowledge, then the Church needs to come clean and admit it, starting with the missionary discussions and Temple prep courses. 1
Calm Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 (edited) Even if the Church knows a thousand things about eternal life, fuller knowledge about eternity is more in line with a million, so to speak. So the Church leaders can know many, many things, but it is still a drop in the bucket, especially since I doubt we can conceive of perfected existence is like...al in my opinion I know. Edited June 10, 2018 by Calm 2
Bernard Gui Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 (edited) 54 minutes ago, cinepro said: I understand that the LDS theory of the afterlife sounds better when couched in oratory and euphemism. But I don't accept that using plain language is "cynicism." I also disagree that we have "limited knowledge of what our eternal nature will be." The Church makes tons of claims about what our "eternal nature will be" and what we need to do to optimize it. If we have limited knowledge, then the Church needs to come clean and admit it, starting with the missionary discussions and Temple prep courses. Like I said, this cynical caricature makes me very sad. Edited June 10, 2018 by Bernard Gui
SteveO Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 I’m not understanding the onus being on God to make everything tailor made for each individual person to ensure everyone gets what they want in the hereafter... The commandments aren’t enforced with the threat of hellfire—I think that’s a immature way of understanding them. Anymore, I see the commandments as a way of drawing closer to God and an opportunity to sacrifice the natural man for the potential of being like Him. 1
ALarson Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said: I’m surprised no one has mentioned Elder Uchtdorf’s “poof” talk...I know......the “poofs” were edited out. I thought they made the thoughts more endearing, but that is irrelevant. I take great hope and courage in this and also from my reading of Alma 7....not only as relief from my sorrows but also from the sorrows I have caused others. We should not make the error of believing “Christ’s atonement is for everyone but me.” I loved this talk. Thanks for posting it so I could read some of it again... Also, these promises of course are not just meant for members of the church (as I'm sure you know ....great reminder) 1
ALarson Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 25 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Like I said, this cynical caricature makes me very sad. I have asked members how they think things will be different for those not sealed vs. those who are. Any thoughts? Will we not be able to talk to or see those we're not sealed to? Will we live in some type of commune with those we're sealed to and not be with others? Also, as my kids grow up and marry....they want to be with their spouse through the eternities (not living with Mom and Dad). So how will their relationship be different with their parents vs. those in the same kingdom as their parents who aren't sealed? For me, it just makes a whole lot more sense to believe that God will not force or prevent us from being with those we love if they also want to be with us. There will be so many who love and who are not sealed together....I believe it won't be much different for them being together vs. those who are sealed. I respect that others believe differently. But I have prayed about this and have received the answer that God will not keep us from those we love if we desire to be together. 2
SteveO Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 16 hours ago, Calm said: There is, imo, no reason to assume eternity will be much like mortality, though it may take time for us to,adjust to making decisions based on an eternal viewpoint...unless our memories of who we were and what we went through in the preexistence are restored prior to resurrection. If that happens, death may feel like waking up from an intense, very vivid dream I like this. I had a very insightful grandfather who once remarked that it would be agonizing if we could be made to glimpse the kind of individuals we were before this life. 1
Bernard Gui Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 (edited) 17 minutes ago, ALarson said: I have asked members how they think things will be different for those not sealed vs. those who are. Any thoughts? Will we not be able to talk to or see those we're not sealed to? Will we live in some type of commune with those we're sealed to and not be with others? Also, as my kids grow up and marry....they want to be with their spouse through the eternities (not living with Mom and Dad). So how will their relationship be different with their parents vs. those in the same kingdom as their parents who aren't sealed? For me, it just makes a whole lot more sense to believe that God will not force or prevent us from being with those we love if they also want to be with us. There will be so many who love and who are not sealed together....I believe it won't be much different for them being together vs. those who are sealed. I respect that others believe differently. But I have prayed about this and have received the answer that God will not keep us from those we love if we desire to be together. Our rewards will be determined by the combined interplay of knowledge, faith, justice, mercy, compassion, repentance, forgiveness, desires, actions, trust, covenants, ordinances, and more; however, God will not force anything on us. Every knee shall bend and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ, but that confession will be freely given through pure love and gratitude. Whatever bounds he puts on us will be just and merciful. Edited June 10, 2018 by Bernard Gui
Bernard Gui Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, SteveO said: I like this. I had a very insightful grandfather who once remarked that it would be agonizing if we could be made to glimpse the kind of individuals we were before this life. And so much more the expectation that all the crud we face here will be washed clean, and we find ourselves infinitely better off than we were before it all happened! Edited June 10, 2018 by Bernard Gui 1
ALarson Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Our rewards will be determined by the combined interplay of knowledge, faith, justice, mercy, compassion, repentance, forgiveness, desires, actions, trust, covenants, ordinances, and more; however, God will not force anything on us. Every knee shall bend and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ, but that confession will be freely given through pure love and gratitude. Whatever bounds he puts on us will be just and merciful. I agree. I believe all of that applies to members of the church as well as those who are not members.....sealed or not sealed together. If parents of children are together in a kingdom, their love will bind them and they will be able to be together is what I believe. If not, how weird would that be (parents seeing their children but not being allowed to speak to them or be with them?). Same with brothers, sisters, grandparents, cousins, friends.....and so on.... Edited June 10, 2018 by ALarson 1
mfbukowski Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 18 hours ago, changed said: and those who have been abused, who have no family to be sealed to, who end up with anxiety and mental disorders and kill themselves because they were tried beyond their limits of endurance... the victims of war, the refugees, those not brought up in any church ... how about those who cannot be happy without being sealed to their mother/father/brother/spouse - if your family chooses outer darkness etc. will you be happy? you did not really love them anyways? how exactly does that work out? just get sealed to a stranger and forget everyone you knew in this life? just? there is nothing just or merciful in this life for many people. some get the easy route, others are tried beyond their limits of endurance. How about losing your whole family in the holocaust and being imprisoned in a concentration camp and there finding your meaning in life? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man's_Search_for_Meaning https://edisciplinas.usp.br/pluginfile.php/3403095/mod_resource/content/1/56ViktorFrankl_Mans Search.pdf
Popular Post USU78 Posted June 11, 2018 Popular Post Posted June 11, 2018 On 5/28/2018 at 8:28 PM, changed said: The biggest one: Do you consider yourself worthy in every way to enter the temple and participate in temple ordinances? I have failed a few tests,G-d showed me my limits by testing me beyond my strength, put me in my correct place - which was not the top tier... You shortchange yourself. Every failure teaches a lesson, and your next test you do better. Trajectory is far more interesting than status quo. G-d's plan for you is not the same as His plan for me. Question: Cutting yourself off from the Temple helps you how, exactly? 5
Calm Posted June 11, 2018 Posted June 11, 2018 (edited) For those who say how can they not want to be with family, how do you reconcile a lack of desire to be with God since he is certainly family to each and every one of us...assuming LDS belief (if you don't assume LDS belief, then no need to discuss which of the kingdoms you wish to end up in)? It just doesn't sound consistent to me. If it is family that is the ultimate driver of one's desires, then why is the Father and one's Brother and Mother not considered an intimate part of that as well? Edited June 11, 2018 by Calm
Tacenda Posted June 11, 2018 Posted June 11, 2018 8 hours ago, ALarson said: I agree. I believe all of that applies to members of the church as well as those who are not members.....sealed or not sealed together. If parents of children are together in a kingdom, their love will bind them and they will be able to be together is what I believe. If not, how weird would that be (parents seeing their children but not being allowed to speak to them or be with them?). Same with brothers, sisters, grandparents, cousins, friends.....and so on.... This is where I believe the church that claims families can be together is very deceptive, IMO.
Calm Posted June 11, 2018 Posted June 11, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Tacenda said: This is where I believe the church that claims families can be together is very deceptive, IMO. I know of families where there are members who can't stand to be with each other. Would you force them to be together to satisfy the desires of other members of their family to be together. Would you, if possible, force one of your adult children to live next door, attend all the family reunions and holidays, put their own desires on hold for the needs of the group if they did not desire to be there? Would you be deceptive to claim you made it possible for your family to be together if you gave that family member every chance to be there with the others, but they refused? Edited June 11, 2018 by Calm 2
california boy Posted June 11, 2018 Posted June 11, 2018 2 hours ago, Calm said: I know of families where there are members who can't stand to be with each other. Would you force them to be together to satisfy the desires of other members of their family to be together. Would you, if possible, force one of your adult children to live next door, attend all the family reunions and holidays, put their own desires on hold for the needs of the group if they did not desire to be there? Would you be deceptive to claim you made it possible for your family to be together if you gave that family member every chance to be there with the others, but they refused? Maybe deceptive is the wrong word. The church makes such. a big deal out of "being sealed". But what is the big deal? What can a person do who is sealed to his parents that a person who is not sealed to his parents do?
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