juliann Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 38 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I would say that John Taylor here clearly indicates that a second husband cannot expect to remain with a wife who was sealed previously to a worthy husband. Due to polygamy past there has never been such a statement made in reverse. And look how far you had to go back to find something, anything, to maintain male privilege. Meanwhile, this was removed. Removed. It is no longer current. What is so difficult to understand about that? 2
JulieM Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 49 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I would say that John Taylor here clearly indicates that a second husband cannot expect to remain with a wife who was sealed previously to a worthy husband. And what if the wife desires to be with her second husband for eternity? She has no choice or say in this?
JLHPROF Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 58 minutes ago, juliann said: And look how far you had to go back to find something, anything, to maintain male privilege. Meanwhile, this was removed. Removed. It is no longer current. What is so difficult to understand about that? Nothing at all. I don't agree with much that is "current". Just because an administrative policy in the Church is changed is no indication that eternity has changed. 1
JLHPROF Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 50 minutes ago, JulieM said: And what if the wife desires to be with her second husband for eternity? She has no choice or say in this? Of course she does. That's one of the primary doctrines attached to the second anointing, the ordinance representing exaltation.
JulieM Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 (edited) 30 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Of course she does. That's one of the primary doctrines attached to the second anointing, the ordinance representing exaltation. Oh good. I hope that’s how it works. That makes the most sense 😊 Edited June 21, 2018 by JulieM
Calm Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 37 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Of course she does. That's one of the primary doctrines attached to the second anointing, the ordinance representing exaltation. So how does that work in the case that JT described? If the wife prefers her second husband to her first? 1
thatjimguy Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 When I was investigating the church, I found a picture fo three kingdoms. The Telestial Kingdom looked like a log cabin, followed by the Terrestrial Kingdom which was represented by a 1950's house. Finally, the Celestial Kingdom which looked like something from the Elven Kingdom from Lord of the Rings. I think, early on, people are taught they are physically separate. I tend to get that a Kingdom of Glory is simply honor. My buddy and I can be in the same room and say we were both sailors, but I was a goof and he really did well. The experience separates us in Honor, but it doesn't separate us literally. 1
JLHPROF Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 5 hours ago, thatjimguy said: When I was investigating the church, I found a picture fo three kingdoms. The Telestial Kingdom looked like a log cabin, followed by the Terrestrial Kingdom which was represented by a 1950's house. Finally, the Celestial Kingdom which looked like something from the Elven Kingdom from Lord of the Rings. I think, early on, people are taught they are physically separate. I tend to get that a Kingdom of Glory is simply honor. My buddy and I can be in the same room and say we were both sailors, but I was a goof and he really did well. The experience separates us in Honor, but it doesn't separate us literally. There are ideas that lead to both beliefs. We don't know for certain whether the "kingdoms of glory" require geographical separation. There is evidence both ways. 2
JulieM Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 10 hours ago, Calm said: So how does that work in the case that JT described? If the wife prefers her second husband to her first? Good questions! JLHProf? What are your beliefs if that happens?
juliann Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 2 hours ago, JLHPROF said: There are ideas that lead to both beliefs. We don't know for certain whether the "kingdoms of glory" require geographical separation. There is evidence both ways. I think you mean random speculative comments both ways. 😉 2
Tacenda Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 Just now, juliann said: I think you mean random speculative comments both ways. 😉 It's all speculative, which in some ways do more harm than good.
juliann Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 On 6/12/2018 at 7:57 AM, RevTestament said: Seems pretty clear to me. The terrestrial kingdom includes those who were not valiant in the testimony of Yeshua in life, but accepted the gospel fully in the spirit world. ie second chance. Those are troublesome verses because they don't line up with everything we believe in. Like God being fair and not putting one person in a nonMormon family but demanding the same results as those who were. Or considering someone who had a lifetime of knowledge in the gospel on equal ground to someone who had a couple of badly behaved missionaries at their door for 5 minutes. Not to mention that the majority of the world isn't even Christian let alone Mormon. This is Calvinism, not Mormonism. 2
JLHPROF Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 25 minutes ago, juliann said: I think you mean random speculative comments both ways. 😉 Well, scriptural interpretation both ways, but still based in scripture.
RevTestament Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 4 hours ago, juliann said: Those are troublesome verses because they don't line up with everything we believe in. Like God being fair and not putting one person in a nonMormon family but demanding the same results as those who were. Or considering someone who had a lifetime of knowledge in the gospel on equal ground to someone who had a couple of badly behaved missionaries at their door for 5 minutes. Not to mention that the majority of the world isn't even Christian let alone Mormon. This is Calvinism, not Mormonism. Oh. not hardly. Calvinism would say, if you didn't get to hear the gospel in life, tough cookies, shweethearrrrt - you're going to hell forever because God predestined it that way. No second chance either. Not being valiant in the gospel in life takes into account ones circumstances. Overcoming tough circumstances is what makes one valiant. So if one has the truth, but lets circumstances change them, so that they have to re-accept the gospel in the spirit world, God did treat that person fairly. They are also being saved. So, it's more than fair. How many chances are we supposed to get in the juliann model? There are several places in the gospel where we learn this life is the time to accept and live the gospel. Once one had the gospel, and decides to turn there back on it. it is costly.
Eek! Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, juliann said: Those are troublesome verses because they don't line up with everything we believe in. Like God being fair and not putting one person in a nonMormon family but demanding the same results as those who were. Or considering someone who had a lifetime of knowledge in the gospel on equal ground to someone who had a couple of badly behaved missionaries at their door for 5 minutes. Not to mention that the majority of the world isn't even Christian let alone Mormon. This is Calvinism, not Mormonism. Totally agree. But what if part of the plan is that we have to actually "walk the walk"? Just as it would be unfair to penalize someone for not living up to an opportunity they never had, so too would it be unfair to give them an honorary degree as valid as an earned degree (though I'm sure there are born-again Christians who would disagree with me on this). So how can someone who never got a fair chance in mortality be given a fair chance to earn their degree? Imo one resolution of the conundrum would be, multiple mortal probations. That would open up the possibility of everyone truly getting a fair chance. We have been told that this earth is the Telestial world. The words "kingdom" and "world" are used interchangeably in the scriptures. Imo "being sent to the Telestial kingdom" may well mean "being sent back to this earth or to another similar world." This does not mean that everyone on a Telestial world is actually a Telestial level being. More advanced beings would come here as teachers or whatever. Edited June 21, 2018 by Eek!
juliann Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, RevTestament said: Oh. not hardly. Calvinism would say, if you didn't get to hear the gospel in life, tough cookies, shweethearrrrt - you're going to hell forever because God predestined it that way. No second chance either. Not being valiant in the gospel in life takes into account ones circumstances. Overcoming tough circumstances is what makes one valiant. So if one has the truth, but lets circumstances change them, so that they have to re-accept the gospel in the spirit world, God did treat that person fairly. They are also being saved. So, it's more than fair. How many chances are we supposed to get in the juliann model? There are several places in the gospel where we learn this life is the time to accept and live the gospel. Once one had the gospel, and decides to turn there back on it. it is costly. I don't think any parent is going to care how long it took a child to reach the goal as long as she reaches it. I recommend Elder Oaks talk, I think one of the most important he ever gave, to put this awful idea that God has favorites aside, https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2000/10/the-challenge-to-become?lang=eng. Note that he appeals to the Bible parable of the workers who all get paid the same regardless of how long each worked. So yes, it does look like God isn't that concerned about being "fair" to those who had all the advantages and blessing all along and if any of them think it is unfair, they don't belong in the CK anyway. Quote Like other parables, this one can teach several different and valuable principles. For present purposes its lesson is that the Master’s reward in the Final Judgment will not be based on how long we have labored in the vineyard. We do not obtain our heavenly reward by punching a time clock. What is essential is that our labors in the workplace of the Lord have caused us to become something. For some of us, this requires a longer time than for others. What is important in the end is what we have become by our labors. Many who come in the eleventh hour have been refined and prepared by the Lord in ways other than formal employment in the vineyard. These workers are like the prepared dry mix to which it is only necessary to “add water”—the perfecting ordinance of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. With that addition—even in the eleventh hour—these workers are in the same state of development and qualified to receive the same reward as those who have labored long in the vineyard. Eek, I think the above answers your questions. You will love Elder Oaks' explanation. Edited June 21, 2018 by juliann 3
Calm Posted June 22, 2018 Posted June 22, 2018 (edited) On 6/20/2018 at 11:05 PM, Calm said: So how does that work in the case that JT described? If the wife prefers her second husband to her first? So I take it my question isn't going to get answered? Because I am confused as to how both can be true...a wife has to stay with her first sealed husband instead of going with another man because she can't be "stolen" and a wife can choose who she will be with eternally, if any at all. If there is some way of resolving that outside of God will alter her feelings so she will want to stay with her first husband no matter how much happier she was with the second, I would be very interested in hearing it. Edited June 22, 2018 by Calm 1
Eek! Posted June 22, 2018 Posted June 22, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Calm said: I am confused as to how both can be true...a wife has to stay with her first sealed husband instead of going with another man because she can't be "stolen" and a wife can choose who she will be with eternally, if any at all. If there is some way of resolving that outside of God will alter her feelings so she will want to stay with her first husband no matter how much happier she was with the second, I would be very interested in hearing it. The following is just my opinion of course... In the higher worlds, a higher law is probably in play. Down here the laws that are in play are based on who formally agreed to what. Sometimes what we agree to is not authentic. Up there, the law that governs our associations might be called "the law of affinity". No relationships or associations are imposed on anyone against their will. The Lord's house is a house of order, but it is a natural order, not an imposed one. As far as sealings go, remember that they are of no effect after this life if not ratified by the Holy Spirit of Promise. Imo the Holy Spirit of Promise is a gate-keeper who saves us from being eternally bound by anything that violates the law of affinity. That being said, it's hard to predict what relationships might look like in a higher world where jealousy does not exist, where time does not exist, and where everyone you love is just a thought away. And maybe at some point, down the path a ways from where we are now, we all draw our circles of love so big that each of us includes every single other person. Edited June 22, 2018 by Eek!
Calm Posted June 22, 2018 Posted June 22, 2018 1 hour ago, Eek! said: The following is just my opinion of course... In the higher worlds, a higher law is probably in play. Down here the laws that are in play are based on who formally agreed to what. Sometimes what we agree to is not authentic. Up there, the law that governs our associations might be called "the law of affinity". No relationships or associations are imposed on anyone against their will. The Lord's house is a house of order, but it is a natural order, not an imposed one. As far as sealings go, remember that they are of no effect after this life if not ratified by the Holy Spirit of Promise. Imo the Holy Spirit of Promise is a gate-keeper who saves us from being eternally bound by anything that violates the law of affinity. That being said, it's hard to predict what relationships might look like in a higher world where jealousy does not exist, where time does not exist, and where everyone you love is just a thought away. And maybe at some point, down the path a ways from where we are now, we all draw our circles of love so big that each of us includes every single other person. But that is not a reconciliation with John Taylor's belief though it works well with mine. 1
Stargazer Posted June 22, 2018 Posted June 22, 2018 On 6/21/2018 at 4:32 AM, JulieM said: And what if the wife desires to be with her second husband for eternity? She has no choice or say in this? I've wondered about this, myself. My new wife was sealed to her late husband and they were together for 27 years before he died. I do not expect to be with her after this life, because he was a faithful brother and will certainly be counted worthy in the end. I'd gladly be with her in eternity, however, at least if my own late wife would agree -- which I'm sure she would. In fact, my new wife has told me that she wishes she had met me when she was young -- and I get the impression that she feels closer to me than her late husband. What will happen in the end? I have no idea. I expect that things will fall out properly in the end, however they fall out. But I would never attempt to convince her to have her existing sealing cancelled so that I could steal her from him. I think that would be dishonorable. What ends up being confirmed by the Holy Spirit of Promise is all that I want. How much choice in this does my wife have? I don't know, but I trust that Father will make things come out right.
Stargazer Posted June 22, 2018 Posted June 22, 2018 On 6/12/2018 at 3:57 PM, RevTestament said: Seems pretty clear to me. The terrestrial kingdom includes those who were not valiant in the testimony of Yeshua in life, but accepted the gospel fully in the spirit world. ie second chance. The way I see it is that those who hear the gospel in either this life and/or the next, but reject it, must pay for their own sins, and are worthy of the tK. those who hear the gospel in this life, reject it here, but accept it in the spirit world, are worthy of the TK. those who hear the gospel in this life or in the spirit world, accept it but are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus, are worthy of the TK those who hear the gospel in this life and/or the next, accept it and are valiant of the testimony of Jesus, are worthy of the CK. for those who die before the age of accountability are either already reckoned as worthy for the CK in the preexistence and will inherit it automatically and/or will come forth again during the Millennium to complete their mortal probation In the above, tK is Telestial Kingdom, and TK is Terrestrial Kingdom. I'm not sure about the accountability issue, but I think it is unreasonable to assume that every single child dying before becoming accountable gets a free ride to the CK. And I could be wrong, of course.
RevTestament Posted June 22, 2018 Posted June 22, 2018 2 hours ago, Stargazer said: The way I see it is that those who hear the gospel in this life, reject it here, but accept it in the spirit world, are worthy of the TK. those who hear the gospel in this life or in the spirit world, accept it but are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus, are worthy of the TK those who hear the gospel in this life and/or the next, accept it and are valiant of the testimony of Jesus, are worthy of the CK. for those who die before the age of accountability are either already reckoned as worthy for the CK in the preexistence and will inherit it automatically and/or will come forth again during the Millennium to complete their mortal probation In the above, tK is Telestial Kingdom, and TK is Terrestrial Kingdom. I'm not sure about the accountability issue, but I think it is unreasonable to assume that every single child dying before becoming accountable gets a free ride to the CK. And I could be wrong, of course. Here are 4 categories for the Terr Kingdom: 72 Behold, these are they who died without law; 73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh; 74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it. 75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men. *** 79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; This last verse indicates to me those who heard the gospel, and kinda lived it, but are judged not valiant enough for the CK. So I agree with your above categories except the last in which you say for those who die before the age of accountability are either and/or will come forth again during the Millennium to complete their mortal probation With the latter I must disagree. The only scriptural place I know of dealing with the subject is Hebrews which indicates we get one mortal probation in this world. No one comes forth again as an infant if that is what you are saying. That is reincarnation, which is false doctrine of the adversary. If you are saying they will reappear in their resurrected form, I make no claim about your statement, but I personally strongly doubt it. Quote those who hear the gospel in either this life and/or the next, but reject it, must pay for their own sins, and are worthy of the tK. Yep. Even those who end up in the Terrestrial Kingdom apparently get to experience a little hell ie pay for their sins. My personal take is those in the Tel kingdom don't accept the gospel in their third estate, but I believe they do repent in their resurrection, thus do not become sons of perdition.
Eek! Posted June 22, 2018 Posted June 22, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, Calm said: But that is not a reconciliation with John Taylor's belief... You're right, I did not reconcile the irreconcilable. edit: maybe this: In the higher worlds, a person cannot "steal" another's husband or wife, in the sense of violating someone's will. Down here our wills are at war with one another's, and love is a scarce commodity for which we compete with a vengeance. Presumably things are different up there. But remember that if the Holy Spirit of Promise didn't sign off on it, the sealing is of no effect in the next life. That part gets left out all the time. Edited June 22, 2018 by Eek!
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