Different Degrees of Glory.

[Calm]

23 minutes ago, Eek! said:

I don't really expect you to tell me, but can't help wondering how you came to that conclusion.

Anyway, I agree with you.   Solid mass, or even better truly oneness, with each person the center of the sphere, and each person in intimate relationship with every other, is a vastly better description than "big web", which implies "closer to some than to others".   Like a superbrain whose superneurons have so many axons and dentrites that each superneuron directly connects to every other superneuron.   Or maybe like a field in which distance and time do not exist (see D&C 130:6-11).  Imo the web metaphor illustrates an aspect of the re-union event, which in its mature condition is that oneness.  I think that at some point there will be no degrees of separation between any of us, and "we" will no longer be in the kingdom of man, but will be in the next one up.  And I can see how Brigham could have had trouble describing that. 

It is the emphasis on becoming one in the Scriptures, with God and each other.

Then we have how the Spirit speaks to us even in our extremely blinkered mortal state.  If that kind of intimacy can be achieved within our current limits, how much more will be achieved when we have all of eternity and God's resources behind us to develop our ability to communicate with each other?

What if we are able to direct 'hear' each others' thoughts and feel what others feel...we will be able to experience their lives with them.  Full transparency with each other...we will no longer see through a glass darkly, but know ourselves and know others as ourselves and love will be able to flourish in that level of relationship.

I don't know if there will be those who treasure too deeply separation---as if that somehow promotes their individuality---that they refuse to share themselves, I think it is possible (I think individuality will be most promoted by understanding who we are and who the 'other' truly is because then we can provide what each needs to fulfill their potential).  I also think it may be possible that given eternity everyone will be able to see that ultimate personal growth comes by relating to others and therefore choose that.

[cinepro]

5 hours ago, changed said:

 

Some believe getting sealed in the temple will allow them to be with their family for eternity... for me, the temple has torn my family apart.  

Is it ok to strive to be a guardian angel rather than... ↑↑↑?   The imperfect people I know and love are all imperfect guardian angels (not temple-recommend carrying saints)...  It is just a small little flock up there, and I would be kidding myself to think I was strong enough for all of that.  The kinds of tests that are dished out on this earth, I would never do that to anyone.  I hate all of the divisions and hierarchies on earth - heaven is going to be divided too? I just don't understand how anyone could ever be happy or strive for a "heavenly" hierarchy?  It just does not sound like heaven to me... 

I know everyone is going to jump on the free-will bandwagon, but I don't know anyone who is not interested in being loved and giving love - in a perfect educational system everyone could be taught to attain the same level of joy - to me it is not about free will, it is about providing correct educational experiences to everyone.  

thoughts? comments?  

I do not have a temple recommend over this.  I do not have a testimony that this system brings joy to everyone, or that this system binds families together.  

Honestly, I don't think the LDS conception of the degrees of glory and families being "together forever" holds up to much scrutiny.  I'm surprised it's lasted this long. 

Even in the LDS plan, people in the different kingdoms get to be "together forever."  So if a husband and wife (Bob and Cathy) die and both end up in the Telestial Kingdom, they'll still be together forever.  According to LDS teachings, they'll still recognize each other and remember their earth life together, and they'll have 100% operational bodies.  So Bob and Cathy can still hang out and play checkers and probably even have sex (their bodies are fully operational according to Alma 40.)

Apparently what Bob and Cathy can't do is have "eternal increase", which appears to be a euphemism for "spirit babies."  But there are lots of married couples on Earth who don't seem to want children, or are happy with the three or four they already have.  So these people might be happier not having billions of spirit babies to watch over and answer their prayers.

This makes the message a little more muddled.  If the trick isn't to reach the Celestial Kingdom, but instead we just need to end up in the same Kingdom, then it's more of a strategic plan than an all-out race to the top. 

[strappinglad]

What is the purpose of order? I am going to present an analogy and stretch it some. Suppose you have 50 pairs of shoes of different colors and types and purpose. They are scattered willy- nilly on the bedroom floor. You wish to impose some order on the shoes so you pile them all on the bed. Well , you have cleared the floor.That's better but not much so you buy some of those special shoe holding hangers and put 2 shoes in each holder. You do it at random without concern for pairing at all. Better, but still chaotic. You go back to the closet and pair up the shoes properly. Much better. Now if there was a way to be able to choose a pair even in the dark. OCD is starting to kick in. Organize left to right, top to bottom, by style etc. Because I like them all equally, I don't order by preference.

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, changed said:

 

Some believe getting sealed in the temple will allow them to be with their family for eternity... for me, the temple has torn my family apart.  

Is it ok to strive to be a guardian angel rather than... ↑↑↑?   The imperfect people I know and love are all imperfect guardian angels (not temple-recommend carrying saints)...  It is just a small little flock up there, and I would be kidding myself to think I was strong enough for all of that.  The kinds of tests that are dished out on this earth, I would never do that to anyone.  I hate all of the divisions and hierarchies on earth - heaven is going to be divided too? I just don't understand how anyone could ever be happy or strive for a "heavenly" hierarchy?  It just does not sound like heaven to me... 

I know everyone is going to jump on the free-will bandwagon, but I don't know anyone who is not interested in being loved and giving love - in a perfect educational system everyone could be taught to attain the same level of joy - to me it is not about free will, it is about providing correct educational experiences to everyone.  

thoughts? comments?  

I do not have a temple recommend over this.  I do not have a testimony that this system brings joy to everyone, or that this system binds families together.  

That "perfect educational system" is provided in our doctrine in our belief in work for the dead.

We believe that when we awake in the spirit world, preaching about the afterlife will naturally be much easier than it is here.

So our doctrine covers that "problem".

 

 

[Eek!]

43 minutes ago, Calm said:

It is the emphasis on becoming one in the Scriptures, with God and each other.

There are some big concepts hidden in plain sight.  Lots of people have read the same scriptures and not seen what you have.

43 minutes ago, Calm said:

Then we have how the Spirit speaks to us even in our extremely blinkered mortal state.  If that kind of intimacy can be achieved within our current limits, how much more will be achieved when we have all of eternity and God's resources behind us to develop our ability to communicate with each other?

What a beautiful example of discovering truths that are not explicitly spelled out in scripture, but are woven into the world around us, again hidden in plain sight!

43 minutes ago, Calm said:

What if we are able to direct 'hear' each others' thoughts and feel what others feel...we will be able to experience their lives with them.  Full transparency with each other...we will no longer see through a glass darkly, but know ourselves and know others as ourselves and love will be able to flourish in that level of relationship.

I've come across a few examples of what you describe here in accounts of near-death experiences. 

43 minutes ago, Calm said:

I don't know if there will be those who treasure too deeply separation---as if that somehow promotes their individuality---that they refuse to share themselves, I think it is possible (I think individuality will be most promoted by understanding who we are and who the 'other' truly is because then we can provide what each needs to fulfill their potential).  I also think it may be possible that given eternity everyone will be able to see that ultimate personal growth comes by relating to others and therefore choose that.

My guess is that the experience of knowing and being known will probably make anything separation has to offer pale in comparison, but I don't yet know of course. 

Edited May 29, 2018 by Eek!

[strappinglad]

24 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Even in the LDS plan, people in the different kingdoms get to be "together forever."  So if a husband and wife (Bob and Cathy) die and both end up in the Telestial Kingdom, they'll still be together forever

Not as husband and wife. Maybe I missed the memo. Where does it say they will be going home together ?

[Eek!]

3 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

What is the purpose of order? I am going to present an analogy and stretch it some. Suppose you have 50 pairs of shoes of different colors and types and purpose....  Organize left to right, top to bottom, by style etc. Because I like them all equally, I don't order by preference.

Excellent analogy!  That is "order" in the sense of "the opposite of confusion".  

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, changed said:

 

Thank you for that - how many Mormons believe this?  vs. eternal separation?  

Don't worry about how many believe it, this is not doctrine by majority rule. 

Pray and receive your own confirmation of the truth 

[mfbukowski]

Error

Edited May 29, 2018 by mfbukowski

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, cinepro said:

Honestly, I don't think the LDS conception of the degrees of glory and families being "together forever" holds up to much scrutiny.  I'm surprised it's lasted this long. 

Even in the LDS plan, people in the different kingdoms get to be "together forever."  So if a husband and wife (Bob and Cathy) die and both end up in the Telestial Kingdom, they'll still be together forever.  According to LDS teachings, they'll still recognize each other and remember their earth life together, and they'll have 100% operational bodies.  So Bob and Cathy can still hang out and play checkers and probably even have sex (their bodies are fully operational according to Alma 40.)

Apparently what Bob and Cathy can't do is have "eternal increase", which appears to be a euphemism for "spirit babies."  But there are lots of married couples on Earth who don't seem to want children, or are happy with the three or four they already have.  So these people might be happier not having billions of spirit babies to watch over and answer their prayers.

This makes the message a little more muddled.  If the trick isn't to reach the Celestial Kingdom, but instead we just need to end up in the same Kingdom, then it's more of a strategic plan than an all-out race to the top. 

Yes, but if, like me, you are power-mad and want to rule the Universe there is only one kingdom where you can do that.

[changed]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

Which question are you unable to answer so as to have a recommend?

The biggest one:

Do you consider yourself worthy in every way to enter the temple and participate in temple ordinances?

I have failed a few tests,G-d showed me my limits by testing me beyond my strength, put me in my correct place - which was not the top tier... 

 

[changed]

1 hour ago, cinepro said:

This makes the message a little more muddled.  If the trick isn't to reach the Celestial Kingdom, but instead we just need to end up in the same Kingdom, then it's more of a strategic plan than an all-out race to the top. 

 

Yes, my spouse does not hold a temple recommend either... I think we are both at about the same level - we were sealed together at one point, and I did feel the spirit - but we are both fallen angels... we are a good for one another, but not good for much else ... if a "good" parent is the type of parent who allows the horrors on this earth to "test and refine", sorry, but I would never allow that as a parent. 

I guess I disagree with the parenting and teaching techniques that are used on this earth... 

Edited May 29, 2018 by changed

[strappinglad]

1 hour ago, changed said:

 

 

I guess I disagree with the parenting and teaching techniques that are used on this earth...  

Parenting is tricky. If you are 'helicopter parents' be advised, that doesn't work out well for the child. Note the latest internet 'hero' , the 30 year old manchild . Mission impossible: your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to do your best to raise a productive , caring, independent member of society. Good luck!

[carbon dioxide]

9 hours ago, changed said:

 

Some believe getting sealed in the temple will allow them to be with their family for eternity... for me, the temple has torn my family apart.  

Is it ok to strive to be a guardian angel rather than... ↑↑↑?   The imperfect people I know and love are all imperfect guardian angels (not temple-recommend carrying saints)...  It is just a small little flock up there, and I would be kidding myself to think I was strong enough for all of that.  The kinds of tests that are dished out on this earth, I would never do that to anyone.  I hate all of the divisions and hierarchies on earth - heaven is going to be divided too? I just don't understand how anyone could ever be happy or strive for a "heavenly" hierarchy?  It just does not sound like heaven to me... 

I know everyone is going to jump on the free-will bandwagon, but I don't know anyone who is not interested in being loved and giving love - in a perfect educational system everyone could be taught to attain the same level of joy - to me it is not about free will, it is about providing correct educational experiences to everyone.  

thoughts? comments?   

We have a very small understanding of things beyond this mortal life.  However I do believe we had an almost perfect understand of things before we came to this earth.  We understood as spirits the purpose of life and the eternities and how things are done.  Nobody was forced to come here.  We all exercised our agency to come here knowing the struggles, rewards, and costs but we all came.  So I would suggest that though it may seem hard, unfair, ect, if you could remember everything that you forgot before you came, your perspective would instantly change.  How you believe things might be at this moment and how they really will be may not match very well. 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, changed said:

The biggest one:

Do you consider yourself worthy in every way to enter the temple and participate in temple ordinances?

I have failed a few tests,G-d showed me my limits by testing me beyond my strength, put me in my correct place - which was not the top tier... 

 

I think you misunderstand the tiers if you think failing a trial disqualifies you.

[Exiled]

3 hours ago, Garden Girl said:

CFR that there is a "contentious election going on right now up there over the LGBT issue"... and that Eloheim "has a hard time communicating his word up there..."

Seriously?

GG

CFR? I thought everyone knew I periodically get access to celestial news. 😎

I know, only serious humor allowed here ....

[Robert F. Smith]

10 hours ago, Exiled said:

To me, it didn't make much sense having the entire family together in the first place.  Kids grow up, leave the nest and go out on their own with their own families.  Maybe together forever means having celestial holidays together?  I wonder if at celestial thanksgiving, there will be fights over celestial kingdom elections like there were re Trump v. Clinton?  I hear there is a contentious election going on right now up there over the LGTB issue.  Some are for letting them into the celestial kingdom (they point to spiritual biology and fairness) and some are against as it being a violation of tradition and what Elohim intended.  Although there is some speculation as to what Elohim really meant.  He has a hard time communicating his word up there as he does down here at times.

Humans often create God in their own image, with all the typical human foibles.  Are all three degrees of glory as fraught with human frailties as we experience in this life?  Are we actually doomed to continue in our present state? Is that what St Paul said?

[Robert F. Smith]

10 hours ago, changed said:

 

Some believe getting sealed in the temple will allow them to be with their family for eternity... for me, the temple has torn my family apart.  

Is it ok to strive to be a guardian angel rather than... ...........

Sure, why not? I think that angels are quite happy and satisfied.  After all, they are where they are supposed to be, and they know it.  Same applies to those who strive to be in any other glory.

10 hours ago, changed said:

 a "heavenly" hierarchy?  It just does not sound like heaven to me... 

I know everyone is going to jump on the free-will bandwagon,

What has free will got to do with it?  A great winnowing takes place and everyone is placed comfortably just where he belongs.  No more death,, no more suffering.  Just glory.  What's not to like?

10 hours ago, changed said:

but I don't know anyone who is not interested in being loved and giving love - in a perfect educational system everyone could be taught to attain the same level of joy - to me it is not about free will, it is about providing correct educational experiences to everyone.  ...............

I do not have a temple recommend over this.  ....................

You don't need a temple recommend.  Your work will be done for you by proxy anyhow, and you will choose to accept what seems O.K. to you.  However, the temple sealers I have talked to about this make it sound rather universalist -- that most of all of humanity will accept the Gospel and temple ordinances on the other side of the veil, with only a few rare holdouts.  LDS theology is very nearly universalist, and even humanist at base.  God's plan gets most of us back to Him in one piece.

[Calm]

8 hours ago, strappinglad said:

As much as we might want it to be different, I believe that God's " house of order " implies organization which implies rank or hierarchy . Abraham tells of there being various levels of intelligence and God being the most intelligent of them all. The D&C suggests that intelligence or light and truth can be gained. It doesn't say everyone will/must gain it. That is one of the battles we currently fight here and now. Equality of opportunity vs. equality of outcome  . The battle is as old as the war in Heaven.

Otoh, God also promises we will be given all that he has, so would that not include intelligence?  How can a hierarchy exist if we are truly one?  Crystals are very ordered, but also no hierarchy, so it is very possible to be organized without hierarchy, even if as mortals we have trouble with that.

Now "being one" may be an analogy, but I see it as a real possibility that such things that create a hierarchy dissolve as unnecessary in eternity when we will know what the Will of God is and make that our own.  We only really need a hierarchy imo for decision making (once pride and greed is dispensed with) and if perfected beings will make the same decision when need requires, then there is no need to turn to anyone to make decisions for us.  It will not be anarchy, but order.

How that will be achieved while we remain fully individual is a mystery in mortality, we are one and yet infinity at the same time, which to us is a paradox (and why I know some currently find exaltation as unappealing because they see it as losing who they are rather than becoming who they are), so I am open to being completely wrong about it...but I don't see value to God to create such diversity in order to arrive at ultimate conformity where all individual differences disappear, so I believe individuality will be of prime importance even in our state of oneness.

Edited May 29, 2018 by Calm

[Exiled]

33 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Humans often create God in their own image, with all the typical human foibles.  Are all three degrees of glory as fraught with human frailties as we experience in this life?  Are we actually doomed to continue in our present state? Is that what St Paul said?

I thought JS said the same sociality that exists here will exist there. D&C 130:2. So, I don't think its too far off to imagine healthy disagreement among individuals, even when they are supposedly perfected. 

[Robert F. Smith]

12 minutes ago, Exiled said:

I thought JS said the same sociality that exists here will exist there. D&C 130:2. So, I don't think its too far off to imagine healthy disagreement among individuals, even when they are supposedly perfected. 

Well, yes, and then there was the infamous War in Heaven.  Is there any hope for some improvement beyond that?  Or do you see us all doomed to squabble forever?  Sounds more like Hell than heaven.

[Garden Girl]

3 hours ago, Exiled said:

CFR? I thought everyone knew I periodically get access to celestial news. 😎

I know, only serious humor allowed here ....

Oh, you actually were kidding... Sorry, with all the crazy things I hear said in today's world, I took you at your words....

GG

[Glenn101]

4 hours ago, Exiled said:

I thought JS said the same sociality that exists here will exist there. D&C 130:2. So, I don't think its too far off to imagine healthy disagreement among individuals, even when they are supposedly perfected. 

Do you think one can be perfect and not perfectly in tune? I personally think that what the Lord has in store for us will be so great that those who attain a Celestial glory will see the total plan in all of its perfection that there will be no desire to dissent. I realize that in our current state we cannot understand or contemplate people being on the same page all of the time. I expect that the same sociality will exist, but not the egos, jealousies, and other human foibles that currently hold us back from being in tune with each other and God.

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Well, yes, and then there was the infamous War in Heaven.  Is there any hope for some improvement beyond that?  Or do you see us all doomed to squabble forever?  Sounds more like Hell than heaven.

I really believe there is hope. I believe that when we are one, as is the Father and son and Holy Ghost, all of that will be a thing of the past. Without that hope I would see little point in remaining LDS or a part of any other religion.

Glenn

[changed]

16 hours ago, Exiled said:

I think the church covers this issue with the baptism for the dead idea.  There is a second chance for a proper education in the future worlds if one isn't obtained here.  However, I agree that it doesn't make sense and that it would be a lot easier if God just appeared to masses of people at a time so there wasn't any confusion as to what we are supposed to do.  It would be a lot easier still if God wrote down his words himself instead of playing a telephone game with his prophets, and stop already with the communication through feelings.  Feelings are so subject to error and confusion that it makes a rather poor way to communicate.  It seems to be why there is so much confusion over religion.

 

Is the point of this life a test, rather than education?  Sort of a deep-down, find out who you really are?  Perhaps it is nota "follow the leader" kind of thing, but instead... when left to yourself, to follow your own mind, sort of thing?  Separation gives everyone room to find and follow their own ways?

[changed]

8 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Parenting is tricky. If you are 'helicopter parents' be advised, that doesn't work out well for the child. Note the latest internet 'hero' , the 30 year old manchild . Mission impossible: your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to do your best to raise a productive , caring, independent member of society. Good luck!

I'm no helicopter parent - work more than full time, so the kids had to learn to take care of themselves - they cook their own food, do their own laundry, don't get help with their hw etc.  and in return, I don't judge them harshly when they fall short... they actually don't fall short.. they are amazing kids and I feel badly I can't be there to support them more.