Talk on Forgiveness

[mbh26]

I've been asked to give a talk on forgiveness, until 70x7 referencing Lynn Robbins in conference this past April.  I first thought it would be about our duty to forgive those who trespass against us but most of this talk was about being forgiven by God for our mistakes.  

I once asked a very intellectually gifted mission companion, "Does the atonement give us a second chance to get things right when we don't get it right the first time or does it just reward us for what we didn't accomplish because Jesus decides we tried our best?"  His response was that the atonement is something we talk a lot about but we don't really know the details of how it works.  Do we not know or perhaps we just don't agree on how it should work?  

I found the parable Elder Robbins gave of a BYU professor who let those who were dissatisfied with their performance on their first physics exam take a second modified exam to improve their score and sometimes even a third.  He likened this to the way the atonement gives us a second chance to improve our character.  I found it interesting that what the professor didn't do was just have a meeting with the student and if he agreed that the student tried his best changed his grade from a C to an A.  

But then how does this fit with the parable of the laborers.  I'm not sure because it seems like a contradiction to me.  The parable of the ten virgins says that you can't put years of fasting every first Sunday of the month, paying tithing, attending church every Sunday, having family prayers, into a deathbed confession and get the same eternal result.  Yet isn't that what the parable of the laborers says you can do? 

But then again, there are other things Jesus said that don't make complete sense to me.  One that comes to mind is saying that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery already in heart.  Does that mean you might as well go ahead an enjoy the sin and complete the deed since you're already guilty anyway?  That doesn't make sense does it?  Perhaps there is more to what Jesus is saying that we don't have?  

[ksfisher]

2 hours ago, mbh26 said:

 

But then again, there are other things Jesus said that don't make complete sense to me.  One that comes to mind is saying that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery already in heart.  Does that mean you might as well go ahead an enjoy the sin and complete the deed since you're already guilty anyway?  That doesn't make sense does it?  Perhaps there is more to what Jesus is saying that we don't have?  

Just because you’ve “committed adultery with her already in [your] heart” in no way justifies committing adultery with the rest of your body.  There is a big difference between thinking about doing something and actually doing it.  

Christ is warning us here to watch our thoughts, as thoughts are the precursers of actions.  But the two are no equivelents.  

[mbh26]

I agree that there is a big difference between thinking something and actually doing it.  To me its common sense.  But how can you draw that conclusion based only on what Jesus is quoted as saying in the scriptures?  Jesus doesn't qualify the thought as a lesser sin.  Some would argue that God looks upon all sin the same.  Any act or thought against the will of God they say is equally bad.  

[JAHS]

D&C 63: 16
"And verily I say unto you, as I have said before, he that looketh on a woman to lust after her, or if any shall commit adultery in their hearts, they shall not have the Spirit, but shall deny the faith and shall fear."

This just seems to equate the lusting as one way to lose the spirit and one's faith.  Also, many might lust in their minds without ever having the intention of actually doing it,   but lusting "in your heart" to me means
that if given the opportunity you would actually do it physically.  Regardless of which it is both require some degree of repentance. 

[mbh26]

Thank you JAHS and ksfisher.  Now how would you marry the parable of the laborers and the parable of the ten virgins?  Why didn't the ten virgins all have an equal amount of oil in their lamp just as the laborers all earned one penny?  

[Glenn101]

2 minutes ago, mbh26 said:

Thank you JAHS and ksfisher.  Now how would you marry the parable of the laborers and the parable of the ten virgins?  Why didn't the ten virgins all have an equal amount of oil in their lamp just as the laborers all earned one penny?  

I have always envisioned/interpreted the tale of the laborers mostly as being about those who do not receive the gospel until later on in life but receive it gladly and get on board with the work when they do hear it. All who are receptive and get ob board pretty much when they hear the word will all receive the same reward.

The story of the virgins is one of hearing, knowing what to do, believing, but procrastinating doing what is necessary until it is too late, again, my interpretation. I do not see a conflict there.

Glenn

[mbh26]

All who are receptive and get ob board pretty much when they hear the word will all receive the same reward.

 

Does it matter if an individual waits one year or 10 years after being introduced to the Church to join?  Does it make a difference if he doesn't pay tithing for the first five years but does start paying the last 5 years of his life?  

Does living the commandments for a longer period of time mold our character to be more like God than had we not lived them?  Or is the only reason to live the commandments gratitude for Jesus sacrifice?  If gratitude is the only reason, is a person considered grateful even if breaks some of the commandments after receiving the good news of the gospel?  If not, was he ever really saved in the first place?  

[mbh26]

The story of the virgins is one of hearing, knowing what to do, believing, but procrastinating doing what is necessary until it is too late, again, my interpretation. I do not see a conflict there.

If this is true, why wouldn't one be better off hearing about the gospel as late in life as possible?  

[katherine the great]

24 minutes ago, mbh26 said:

 

If this is true, why wouldn't one be better off hearing about the gospel as late in life as possible?  

Only if living the gospel is considered a burden rather than a blessing. Sure, we give a lot of things up, but I think most people in the church find that the joy received from living the gospel more than makes up for the loss of some of the more worldly endeavors they may be missing.

[mbh26]

22 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

Only if living the gospel is considered a burden rather than a blessing. Sure, we give a lot of things up, but I think most people in the church find that the joy received from living the gospel more than makes up for the loss of some of the more worldly endeavors they may be missing.

Honestly Katherine since I went inactive from the Church, I've had some of the happiest times in my life.  I probably would never have gone back had I not had a huge fight with my parents who think I'm going to hell for not continuing.  I'm not sure why they would ever ask someone like me to speak other than they don't know who I really am, the questions I have or the way I feel about some things.  Needless to say I won't get into this tomorrow.  But I find no satisfaction nor peace in any of the answers I've gotten so far.  I guess, I just need to hide it and try to avoid the topic if at all possible.  

[CV75]

8 hours ago, mbh26 said:

I've been asked to give a talk on forgiveness, until 70x7 referencing Lynn Robbins in conference this past April.  I first thought it would be about our duty to forgive those who trespass against us but most of this talk was about being forgiven by God for our mistakes.  

I once asked a very intellectually gifted mission companion, "Does the atonement give us a second chance to get things right when we don't get it right the first time or does it just reward us for what we didn't accomplish because Jesus decides we tried our best?"  His response was that the atonement is something we talk a lot about but we don't really know the details of how it works.  Do we not know or perhaps we just don't agree on how it should work?  

I found the parable Elder Robbins gave of a BYU professor who let those who were dissatisfied with their performance on their first physics exam take a second modified exam to improve their score and sometimes even a third.  He likened this to the way the atonement gives us a second chance to improve our character.  I found it interesting that what the professor didn't do was just have a meeting with the student and if he agreed that the student tried his best changed his grade from a C to an A.  

But then how does this fit with the parable of the laborers.  I'm not sure because it seems like a contradiction to me.  The parable of the ten virgins says that you can't put years of fasting every first Sunday of the month, paying tithing, attending church every Sunday, having family prayers, into a deathbed confession and get the same eternal result.  Yet isn't that what the parable of the laborers says you can do? 

But then again, there are other things Jesus said that don't make complete sense to me.  One that comes to mind is saying that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery already in heart.  Does that mean you might as well go ahead an enjoy the sin and complete the deed since you're already guilty anyway?  That doesn't make sense does it?  Perhaps there is more to what Jesus is saying that we don't have?  

Regarding your comments on the Atonement of Christ, I think D&C 93:18-20 ties both concepts together: “And it shall come to pass, that if you are faithful you shall receive the fulness of the record of John. I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness. For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace.” His atonement a) allows us to improve (the parable of the professor) and b) receive the fulness through grace (the parable of the laborers).

The parable of the ten virgins fits in nicely in that all ten were given the opportunity to improve their time and prepare, and the five that did what they could to prepare received a fulness (see D&C 45:57-59). From these verses, we see that just because the Bridegroom arrived does not mean the five wise virgins were perfected; there is more to the Gospel than this snapshot conveys.

Committing adultery in the heart is different than committing adultery in the flesh; it is breaking the higher law Jesus was teaching us to keep (see the Beatitudes, Matthew 5-7). Of course there are greater/higher and lesser/lower consequences to both, and the Lord will judge who committed what and how badly according to the light they have (Matthew 5:14-16; 6:22-23).

[katherine the great]

48 minutes ago, mbh26 said:

Honestly Katherine since I went inactive from the Church, I've had some of the happiest times in my life.  I probably would never have gone back had I not had a huge fight with my parents who think I'm going to hell for not continuing.  I'm not sure why they would ever ask someone like me to speak other than they don't know who I really am, the questions I have or the way I feel about some things.  Needless to say I won't get into this tomorrow.  But I find no satisfaction nor peace in any of the answers I've gotten so far.  I guess, I just need to hide it and try to avoid the topic if at all possible.  

Well, if this is the case I would just focus on the forgiveness aspect of the talk and not all the other stuff. The heart of it is that we unburden ourselves when we can forgive and that frees us. Other than the scriptural examples maybe talk a bit about Viktor Frankl?

[Stargazer]

12 hours ago, mbh26 said:

I've been asked to give a talk on forgiveness, until 70x7 referencing Lynn Robbins in conference this past April.  I first thought it would be about our duty to forgive those who trespass against us but most of this talk was about being forgiven by God for our mistakes.  

I once asked a very intellectually gifted mission companion, "Does the atonement give us a second chance to get things right when we don't get it right the first time or does it just reward us for what we didn't accomplish because Jesus decides we tried our best?"  His response was that the atonement is something we talk a lot about but we don't really know the details of how it works.  Do we not know or perhaps we just don't agree on how it should work?  

The Thing about the atonement is that it is not rocket science or quantum physics.  Your missionary companion was right that we don't really know the details about how it works, but the mechanism isn't important. What is important is the results and that we know how to reach them.

When we were born into this world we were innocent and able to return to the presence of the Father without any intervention.  As we got older, however, we became capable of transgressing the law which God has laid down.  The first time we did so we made ourselves ineligible to return to the Father, except for judgement, which in any case has been delegated to the Son.  So we were sunk.  The important thing to realize is that no one is any worse off than any other -- whether you committed just one sin or a million you are just as cut off from the Father for one as for a million.  And no amount of repentance can change this.  Were this the end of the story, then at the Judgement you would pay the price, in pain and suffering, that your disobedience and justice demands of you.  And once you had paid the price, you would still not be fit to stand in the presence of either the Father or the Son.  End of story, and so enjoy the Telestial Kingdom, for you are worthy of nothing better.  Except for those who died in infancy, we would ALL be destined for this.

Some might say, cannot God the Father give us a break, and because we are really sorry we screwed up, simply forgive us?  The answer to this is found in Alma 42: 25:

What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.

Justice MUST be fulfilled; there's no way out.  Except that the Father has provided a Way.

Enter the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.  From the beginning He was commissioned to come to Earth to redeem all who would be redeemed, and this redemption gave Him power to resurrect us all ("For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." 1 Corinthians 15:22).  So we are resurrected prior to the Judgement, and what happens at that point depends upon our repentance.  If we have repented of our sins, and have accepted Christ, obeyed Him in faith, were baptized, and received the Holy Ghost, then we do not go in for the Judgement, and do not pay the price for sin.  This is because, as Nephi wrote in 2 Nephi 9:7, Christ wrought an Infinite Atonement, and it is infinite by virtue of the fact that He paid the price for sin, even though no sin was in Him.  This can be modelled mathematically, by the way.

N.B.: A note for the mathematically astute: this is "divine math" (or so I construe it), not mortal, so spare me your tut-tutting in regards to dividing by zero! 🙂 

As you may remember from your math classes in school, if you divide any number by zero, the result is called "undefined".  However, calculus shows us that the result trends to infinity.  So putting the payment for sin in the numerator, and the amount of sin committed (and remember one sin is as good as a million) in the denominator, if you pay for your own sin the calculation goes like this:

This means that when you pay the price for your own sin, justice is satisfied and you owe nothing more -- but you are still a sinner (just like a reformed alcoholic says he is still an alcoholic) and are not worthy to stand in the presence of the Father or the Son.

But when Jesus pays the price for sin (starting from the Garden of Gethsemane until on the cross he said "It is finished"), for sin that He did not commit, the calculation goes like this:

 

The act of paying for the sin that He did not owe to Justice placed Justice in debt to Jesus Christ, and to an infinite depth, and He became its Master.  As such, He can dispense Mercy as He sees fit -- this is the thing that Paul calls "Grace", by the way -- or permit Justice to take its course.  Christ does not invoke his Grace upon everyone without condition, but he exercises it upon condition of Repentance.  And thus sincere repentance is rewarded by our Lord permitting us to pass by Him, without tasting of Justice, and without having to endure the awful torture that He himself willingly suffered, for our sake:

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; (DC 19:16,17)

This is Forgiveness, and those who have been forgiven are accorded the blessing of being allowed to dwell in the Terrestrial Kingdom.  But as for the Celestial, still more is required.  Which is a subject for another time.

Quote

I found the parable Elder Robbins gave of a BYU professor who let those who were dissatisfied with their performance on their first physics exam take a second modified exam to improve their score and sometimes even a third.  He likened this to the way the atonement gives us a second chance to improve our character.  I found it interesting that what the professor didn't do was just have a meeting with the student and if he agreed that the student tried his best changed his grade from a C to an A.  

There are many ways to explain the Atonement.  None of them can fully explain it, and some are more accurate than others.  This one is one of the less accurate, but some people are going to "get it" better with this example than with others. Such as the one I offered above.  Ultimately, the Atonement is NOT like a chance to better your grade.  

Quote

But then how does this fit with the parable of the laborers.  I'm not sure because it seems like a contradiction to me.  The parable of the ten virgins says that you can't put years of fasting every first Sunday of the month, paying tithing, attending church every Sunday, having family prayers, into a deathbed confession and get the same eternal result.  Yet isn't that what the parable of the laborers says you can do? 

The BYU professor example doesn't fit in with the parable of the laborers. This parable is actually closer to the true nature of the Atonement -- the single denarius that the workers are offered in exchange for their labor signifies the forgiveness of sin.  Some have committed egregious sins which were difficult to repent of, while others have committed much lesser sins, for which repentance was comparatively easier.  But regardless of how hard you had to work to satisfy the demands of repentance, your reward is the same, which is forgiveness of your sins, and avoidance of atoning for your own sins.

Quote

But then again, there are other things Jesus said that don't make complete sense to me.  One that comes to mind is saying that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery already in heart.  Does that mean you might as well go ahead an enjoy the sin and complete the deed since you're already guilty anyway?  That doesn't make sense does it?  Perhaps there is more to what Jesus is saying that we don't have?  

Jesus was asking for a higher level of obedience.  The law says don't commit adultery, but Jesus says get your mind out of the gutter and stop objectifying women.  This does not mean that you are guilty of adultery if you lust after a woman.  But since it is the first step on that path, well, you'd best not get on the path in the first place.  King David was surely tempted by seeing Bathsheba, but if he had slapped himself upside the head and walked away, he wouldn't have become one of our best examples of how not to keep the law of chastity.

===========================

This next bit is a PostScript.

When I say the atonement is not quantum physics, I am tempted to provide you with the Abstract of a paper submitted by a Canadian physics student I know of who achieved his Masters degree in Physics thereby.  See if you can figure out what is going on:

A new quantization condition for parity-violating three-dimensional gravity

Abstract: (2+1)-dimensional gravity with a negative cosmological constant is a topological theory with no local degrees of freedom. When confined to compact universes which are topologically genus g Riemann surfaces times time, its classical phase space is the cotangent bundle of the moduli space of Riemann surfaces. We consider the quantization of moduli space itself, emerging as the zero-momentum slice of this phase space. When a parity-violating Chern-Simons term is added to the gravitational action, a nontrivial symplectic form is induced on this slice which is a multiple of the Weil-Petersson Kähler form. By demanding that this symplectic form integrate to 2πħ times an integer on every nontrivial two-cycle in moduli space – which is a necessary condition for the system to be quantizable – we find a new quantization condition on the Chern-Simons coupling kʹ. Our result strongly suggests that kʹ must be an integer multiple of 24 in order to define a self-consistent theory of quantum gravity.

Can you understand this?  Do you even know what he's talking about, or in other words, what the hell is quantum gravity?

Well, it's like the Atonement in that you don't need to understand what this Abstract is on about in order to know that if you jump off a high enough cliff you will kill yourself.

Edited April 29, 2018 by Stargazer

[Glenn101]

6 hours ago, mbh26 said:

 

If this is true, why wouldn't one be better off hearing about the gospel as late in life as possible?  

Because the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not about what one can do for themselves, but what they can do for others. There would be so many missed opportunities in such a life.

Moreover, the later in life one hears the gospel, the more opportunities to make some drastic mistakes by not having that guiding influence. Mistakes that just might harden a person to the point that he or she would not care to hear the Good News.

Just two off the top of my head.

Glenn

[mfbukowski]

10 hours ago, mbh26 said:

I agree that there is a big difference between thinking something and actually doing it.  To me its common sense.  But how can you draw that conclusion based only on what Jesus is quoted as saying in the scriptures?  Jesus doesn't qualify the thought as a lesser sin.  Some would argue that God looks upon all sin the same.  Any act or thought against the will of God they say is equally bad.  

Sin is about alienation from God and misplacing worship.  It is about seeking one's own prideful will vs God's will.   President Benson said that pride is really the ONE sin- putting our will ahead of God's will.

If you have committed adultery/idolatry mentally, you have already put your will to do what you want ahead of God's will for you.  Obviously we are all tempted, but the goal is to put temptation out of your head and not dwell on it because dwelling on it is what separates you from God's will for you.

You have already given the temptation power over your thoughts and consciousness and time with thoughts that bring you willfully farther from God than closer.   So the second time around the block checking out the "babe" kind of shows dedication to the temptation rather than what God would have you being occupied with.  You are worshiping the temptation instead of God

Obviously there is a continuum of seriousness here- and obviously as you point out, taking action is a whole different level.

"Faith is a principle of action" and is "hope for things unseen" which you are to take ACTION on to prove the hope.  Alma 32 tells us to "experiment" on faith to prove it "true".  The proof of faith is in the pudding - in the results.

So even without taking action you are showing "faith" in the false "idol" of the temptation by dwelling mentally on it.  You are hoping to "experiment" further on that which the temptation presents so in a sense it can be said that you are showing faith in the false God

That is why dwelling on the thought is so serious and is a "denial of faith" in God by putting the object of temptation above faith in God.  Taking action obviously is more complete "worship" in that one has fulfilled the experiment as Alma would see it, and now you experience the "fruits" of the sin which are not positive.

And that is why porn is bad even if no "action" is taken on it- (masturbation) but worse if that action is taken.

Anyway that is how I see it.   In no way do I want to imply this is only "book learning"- I have learned what I know the hard way just like everyone else.  I know this by my own sad experience.

[mbh26]

Because the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not about what one can do for themselves, but what they can do for others. 

55 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

Because the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not about what one can do for themselves, but what they can do for others. There would be so many missed opportunities in such a life. 

Moreover, the later in life one hears the gospel, the more opportunities to make some drastic mistakes by not having that guiding influence. Mistakes that just might harden a person to the point that he or she would not care to hear the Good News.

Just two off the top of my head.

Glenn

 

Glenn if there are missed opportunities in such a life than how is the reward the same for everyone regardless?  

[mbh26]

This parable is actually closer to the true nature of the Atonement -- the single denarius that the workers are offered in exchange for their labor signifies the forgiveness of sin.

Thank you very much Stargazer.  That was brilliant. 

But regardless of how hard you had to work to satisfy the demands of repentance, your reward is the same, which is forgiveness of your sins, and avoidance of atoning for your own sins.

But is there more to becoming like God than just not sinning?  I'm not sure I believe this life is just about proving whether we will do what's right or not.  I think a spirit can actually strengthen himself, learn and improve his character while going through this test.  Taking the exams was a learning process in itself, not just a measure what level of knowledge a person had achieved.  I'd subscribe to the idea that individuals like Job progressed further than others who led lives with fewer afflictions.  Otherwise Job was just unlucky to have been picked out by God to win a bet with Satan.  How will Christ make things right with Job?  

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Can you understand this?  Do you even know what he's talking about, or in other words, what the hell is quantum gravity?

Would you say that most learning is just vocabulary? Can one experience what the paper was about? Learning the vocabulary of the Atonement is not the same as experiencing the Atonement.

Edited April 29, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

53 minutes ago, mbh26 said:

But is there more to becoming like God than just not sinning?  I'm not sure I believe this life is just about proving whether we will do what's right or not.  I think a spirit can actually strengthen himself, learn and improve his character while going through this test.  Taking the exams was a learning process in itself, not just a measure what level of knowledge a person had achieved.  I'd subscribe to the idea that individuals like Job progressed further than others who led lives with fewer afflictions.  Otherwise Job was just unlucky to have been picked out by God to win a bet with Satan.  How will Christ make things right with Job?  

I have found these words of President Dallin Oaks from October 1995 Conference very helpful:

 

Quote

Another powerful idea we should teach one another is that mortal life has a purpose and that mortal death is not the end but only a transition to the next phase of an existence that is immortal. President Brigham Young taught that “our existence here is for the sole purpose of exaltation and restoration to the presence of our Father and God." The idea of eternal progress is one of the most powerful ideas in our theology. It gives us hope when we falter and challenge when we soar. Surely this is one of the great “solemnities of eternity” that we are commanded to let “rest upon [our] minds” (D&C 43:34).

Another idea that is powerful to lift us from discouragement is that the work of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, “to bring to pass the … eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39), is an eternal work. Not all problems are overcome and not all needed relationships are fixed in mortality. The work of salvation goes on beyond the veil of death, and we should not be too apprehensive about incompleteness within the limits of mortality.

 

[Glenn101]

14 hours ago, mbh26 said:

Glenn if there are missed opportunities in such a life than how is the reward the same for everyone regardless?  

The point of the parable, as I understand it, is that no one will be held back because they were not able to receive the gospel at an earlier point in life through no fault of their own. I still believe that they will be somewhat at a disadvantage because of the things they will have to learn before they can attain exaltation.

D&C:130:18 Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.
19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.

Sort of like a person that is raised for part of his/her life out in the hinterlands and does not get any schooling til say he/she is ten years old. Such an one could still attain success, but would be way behind most people his/her age.

Glenn

[Stargazer]

15 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Would you say that most learning is just vocabulary?

Maybe sometimes.  Depends upon the subject matter.  

In the abstract I presented, there were a lot of technical terms that presumably could be defined and then understood.  But the use of them may not be just an exercise in vocabulary.  There are concepts presented that are described in words there, but they are to be understood (if at all) in mathematical, not verbal, terms.

From the same author (for your entertainment, if nothing else):

 

15 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

 

Can one experience what the paper was about? 

See the video above -- I think that's the best you're gonna get!  I bet God understands the underlying concepts, and so will you.  Eventually!

15 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Learning the vocabulary of the Atonement is not the same as experiencing the Atonement.

Oh, absolutely!   

Learning the vocabulary of anything is not the same as experiencing it.  

[mbh26]

7 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

The point of the parable, as I understand it, is that no one will be held back because they were not able to receive the gospel at an earlier point in life through no fault of their own. I still believe that they will be somewhat at a disadvantage because of the things they will have to learn before they can attain exaltation. 

D&C:130:18 Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.
19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.

Sort of like a person that is raised for part of his/her life out in the hinterlands and does not get any schooling til say he/she is ten years old. Such an one could still attain success, but would be way behind most people his/her age.

Glenn

This is how I see it Glenn.  This is how I was raised in the Church.  I left the Church for a time because I allowed other members to tell me this wasn't so.  I was told I was selfish for interpreting the parable this way.  I never could accept that and I felt like I didn't belong in this Church.  

Elder Robbins talk really fit for me. It actually went pretty well today.  I didn't get into anything controversial.  I didn't have to.  Everything controversial I had to say was right in Elder Robbins talk and I just read parts of it word for word.  

As important as this life is, I don't believe it's the end of our opportunities, certainly not for all of us.  I think everyone has had or will have these opportunities.  But I can't accept that Christ forces some to work out their salvation with fear and trembling over arduous and painful decades while doling it out to others with no similar efforts on their part.  That's not the kind of being I would want to worship.  It's certainly not the Jesus I was taught about in primary when I made my baptismal covenants.  

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, mbh26 said:

As important as this life is, I don't believe it's the end of our opportunities, certainly not for all of us.  I think everyone has had or will have these opportunities.  But I can't accept that Christ forces some to work out their salvation with fear and trembling over arduous and painful decades while doling it out to others with no similar efforts on their part.  That's not the kind of being I would want to worship.  It's certainly not the Jesus I was taught about in primary when I made my baptismal covenants.  

Totally agree.  That is what I mean when I speak about "completing the Restoration".  It got buried by Protestant hellfire culture and we need to resurrect it.    What you quote sounds more like Calvinism that the gospel.  You can't blame the church I think because of the rapid growth with all those former Protestants bringing their culture with them and their social customs and child rearing ideas.

Child rearing practices also had a big part in my opinion.  Authoritarian child rearing based on "giving whuppins" make for a harsh conception of our loving Father.

You can't beat love into a child! 

You can't understand love unless you have been raised by it.  And denial of love for a child can be a horrible punishment - even worse that a "whupping".   It should not be used either, but certainly "timeout" and being denied association with the family is really about the worst punishment available to loving parents.

I see "spirit prison" as kind of like that- being on timeout until we figure out what we did wrong and repenting of it!  

But after that being shown "afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;. 44 That he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of death. " DC 121

 

Edited April 30, 2018 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

On 4/28/2018 at 1:07 PM, katherine the great said:

Well, if this is the case I would just focus on the forgiveness aspect of the talk and not all the other stuff. The heart of it is that we unburden ourselves when we can forgive and that frees us. Other than the scriptural examples maybe talk a bit about Viktor Frankl?

I am ALWAYS ready for a little Viktor Frankl!

What an amazing person he was!

[Rain]

On 4/28/2018 at 5:10 PM, Stargazer said:

The Thing about the atonement is that it is not rocket science or quantum physics.  Your missionary companion was right that we don't really know the details about how it works, but the mechanism isn't important. What is important is the results and that we know how to reach them.

I think it IS those things (well similar) and is important, but it isn't for this thread topic. I do like your wording though and may have to use it when trying to discuss it with others because I have been unsuccessful with most in trying to make my question about it understood. Thanks!