Garden Girl Posted April 10, 2018 Posted April 10, 2018 (edited) 40 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Yeah, a friend of mine was at work and in the middle of the day was told to go home immediately. He went home to find his wife passed out on the floor due to some unforeseen complications in her pregnancy. He got her to the hospital in time. Of course we could probably trade stories like this all day. So true Nehor... I have at least 4 that I consider miracles/divine intervention that happened through the years, including the still small Voice so clear in my mind and heart... and of course, numerous instances of the guidance or influence of the Spirit in answer to my daily prayers... Your comments remind me of my 85 year old father... and his home teacher, who shared this with me... So Cal was in a 100 degree July heat wave of several weeks. It was a Saturday morning and Dad's HT was doing errands early so he could get home before the afternoon heat set in. As he was driving home he got the strong prompting to "Go check on Clyde." He continued on his way, reasoning that he was going to take my Dad to Church in the morning... but as he drove the prompting came again, but stronger... finally the third time a voice nearly shouted at him to go check on Clyde. So he wheeled around and headed to Dad's. When he got no answer at the door, the HT looked in the window and he could see Dad lying on the floor. He broke into the house and called 911... Dad died in the hosp later that night... GG Edited April 10, 2018 by Garden Girl 2
mfbukowski Posted April 10, 2018 Posted April 10, 2018 8 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Yeah, a friend of mine was at work and in the middle of the day was told to go home immediately. He went home to find his wife passed out on the floor due to some unforeseen complications in her pregnancy. He got her to the hospital in time. Of course we could probably trade stories like this all day. Yes I have a few more too. We would need categories. I have a few "Return home now stories", accident avoidance stories, temple stories etc.
Avatar4321 Posted April 10, 2018 Posted April 10, 2018 I was studying the scriptures this morning and came across 3 Nephi 29:6. It seems a rather pertinent warning for our discussion
Rain Posted April 10, 2018 Posted April 10, 2018 (edited) On 4/9/2018 at 10:27 AM, rongo said: My thought? Sunday School would be eliminated. I don't think Sunday School affects much. Those who study, study; and those who don't, don't gain much from it (speaking of adults and youth). Primary would be a different story. I think the primary kids gain a lot from primary lessons --- especially where there are deficiencies in their families. Priesthood/Relief society would need to stay, if it were between that and SS. We aren't asked about Sunday school in temple recommend interviews . . . While I somewhat agree with the study part, one part I would really miss is the gospel study interaction between the men and women. You can get the social aspect through activities. You can get some through HT or ministering, but that is very limited view points. Edited April 11, 2018 by Rain 1
JLHPROF Posted April 10, 2018 Posted April 10, 2018 9 hours ago, The Nehor said: That Joseph Smith got revelation that way is not evidence that all prophets will dictate to a scribe a specific revelation word for word in the First Person of deity. That was a pattern Joseph Smith used. Brigham Young almost never used it. Neither did most of his successors. That's just not true.
The Nehor Posted April 10, 2018 Author Posted April 10, 2018 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: That's just not true. Yeah it is.
JLHPROF Posted April 10, 2018 Posted April 10, 2018 1 minute ago, The Nehor said: Yeah it is. There are dozens of revelations "word for word in the First Person of deity" to Joseph's successors up to a certain point in time. Elder Rasband just quoted one of several to John Taylor this past conference. 1
The Nehor Posted April 10, 2018 Author Posted April 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: There are dozens of revelations "word for word in the First Person of deity" to Joseph's successors up to a certain point in time. Elder Rasband just quoted one of several to John Taylor this past conference. I said “almost never”. Not “Never”. Brigham Young gave a talk about this in the JoD and those who look for “thus sayeth the Lord” clauses and the like before taking revelation seriously. 1
mfbukowski Posted April 10, 2018 Posted April 10, 2018 (edited) 20 hours ago, Exiled said: It would make christianity and mormonism false. These believe it is the other way around, that God put these ideas or truths into the mind of man. You can't even define truth or falsity but you have faith in absolute truth. Sorry that's more faith then I can muster. Since God is man you are saying that man put these ideas into that the minds of men. Yeah I can agree with that. Edited April 10, 2018 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted April 10, 2018 Posted April 10, 2018 (edited) 20 hours ago, Gray said: That's where we got it from. It's not ridiculous, that's simply where we got it. If it comes from Greek philosophy, does that make it false? No just incoherent by modern standards. Truth cannot be defined but we use the term to describe a coherent world view which improves life and predicts experiences. Our idea of the Soul in fact does not come from Greek philosophy because Greek philosophy is dualistic in regard to this question. We are not dualistic we are materialistic in believing that the spirit and the body are Unified and made of matter. We poorly describe the matter of the spirit as being more refined because that is the best our language can do with that now. I imagine it as some sort of natural energy field which in fuses all of matter. Especially living matter. But science is full of hypotheses as well. Dictated please excuse punctuation and capitalization issues. But no scripturally the soul consists of a unified body and spirit. That is not the case in Greek philosophy and describing the soul. Edited April 10, 2018 by mfbukowski
Gray Posted April 10, 2018 Posted April 10, 2018 9 hours ago, The Nehor said: I actually like that some of the things in our faith smack of 'barbaric' paganism. Almost every Sunday I go to a specific building and eat the flesh and drink the blood of a dead but living God who created the sun, sends the rain, and causes the crops to grow. I go to a Temple to receive instruction in a story that holds manifold meanings for teaching the nature of reality and of God akin to the old mystery cults/religions. My scriptures suggest that the Earth itself is in some way alive and capable of communicating. I know that a simple handshake can determine the nature of angels and demons. I wear hidden symbols of the ordinances I have participated in and the covenants I have made on a daily basis. Don't get much more pagan than that. Those seemingly primitive aspects to the faith, properly understood, are a good guard against a kind of intellectual religious snobbery. Plus I think even the pagan religions were refuse of the real gospel corrupted or parts of the gospel given independently for their edification and growth. So technically we reclaimed that paganism. And of course I am sure the Good Ship Zion has a few superstition barnacles still hanging out on the hull but we can get rid of those in time. What I really want is a theology of Valhalla added to the mix. If you die playing church ball, you get to should play church ball in the hall of the gods forever. 1
CA Steve Posted April 10, 2018 Posted April 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, Gray said: What I really want is a theology of Valhalla added to the mix. If you die playing church ball, you get to should play church ball in the hall of the gods forever. Be careful what you ask for. You do realize that if you play church ball forever, you do so with church referees right? I may have just figured out what eternal torment really is. 3
stemelbow Posted April 10, 2018 Posted April 10, 2018 18 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Exactly. That last time we have record of the Lord speaking to/appearing to the prophet of his Church with instruction was a century ago. Now we have record of the prophets and apostles praying, coming to agreement, feeling at peace with their decision, and attributing that to the Lord. The added consideration here is maybe today's revelationing is no different then it was back then. They just recorded it differently. Perhaps the scriptures as we have them, from Joseph, were not any different then impressions he felt strongly about in his mind, or mind's eye, or whatever. There are a couple of things to consider if this is so: Today's soft-claimed revelations are just as powerful as Joseph's. Revelation is far more prevalent outside the Church, since impressions come to people in all walks of life in the same manner as described by our current leadership, then inside it. It's not that the Church is special in being lead by revelation, since many are so lead. But the Church is unique in that it claims to be so lead, while others see revelation as inspiration, man's wisdom, experimentation or other such things.
mfbukowski Posted April 10, 2018 Posted April 10, 2018 (edited) 39 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: There are dozens of revelations "word for word in the First Person of deity" to Joseph's successors up to a certain point in time. Elder Rasband just quoted one of several to John Taylor this past conference. This of course shows that the person uttering the words believed them to be the words of God. We can only know by testimony. If tomorrow morning the prophet said something and finished with the words "thus saith the Lord" we would still have the same opportunity to verify it for ourselves. Edited April 10, 2018 by mfbukowski 3
stemelbow Posted April 10, 2018 Posted April 10, 2018 34 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I said “almost never”. Not “Never”. Brigham Young gave a talk about this in the JoD and those who look for “thus sayeth the Lord” clauses and the like before taking revelation seriously. So are you saying that today's revelations (the 2015 policy change, or the age change for missionaries, the calling of new apostles) are just as meaningful as Joseph's "thus saith the Lord" revelations?
Gray Posted April 10, 2018 Posted April 10, 2018 19 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: No just incoherent by modern standards. Truth cannot be defined but we use the term to describe a coherent world view which improves life and predicts experiences. Our idea of the Soul in fact does not come from Greek philosophy because Greek philosophy is dualistic in regard to this question. We are not dualistic we are materialistic in believing that the spirit and the body are Unified and made of matter. We poorly describe the matter of the spirit as being more refined because that is the best our language can do with that now. I imagine it as some sort of natural energy field which in fuses all of matter. Especially living matter. But science is full of hypotheses as well. Dictated please excuse punctuation and capitalization issues. But no scripturally the soul consists of a unified body and spirit. That is not the case in Greek philosophy and describing the soul. That doesn't mean we didn't get it from the Greeks - that means the idea has mutated, as it often does, when it was transmitted to us by way of the Christians. Not unlike our notion of Godhead, which is a modification of the Trinity doctrine. Interestingly, Mormon notions of the soul (the soul being made of some kind of undefined, refined matter) are similar to what Paul believed was the final state of Jesus upon his resurrection - he was made into a life-giving spirit that was still material in some way, leaving the "seed" of his old physical body behind. But the notion of soul as anything other than the breath of life came to the Judeo-Christian tradition by way of Platonic influence. Originally soul just meant "life".
ALarson Posted April 10, 2018 Posted April 10, 2018 9 hours ago, The Nehor said: Yeah, a friend of mine was at work and in the middle of the day was told to go home immediately. He went home to find his wife passed out on the floor due to some unforeseen complications in her pregnancy. He got her to the hospital in time. Of course we could probably trade stories like this all day. Yes, we all have had them or we know of someone who has had similar experiences. I have found this really has nothing to do with whether or not someone is a member of the church. Anyone can have these experiences, IMO and be close to the spirit. It even seems to happen to those who are sinners by our standards. One can be very spiritual and not be religious at all. Being a member of an organized religion isn't what causes a person to be a spiritual person, IMO.
mfbukowski Posted April 10, 2018 Posted April 10, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Gray said: That doesn't mean we didn't get it from the Greeks - that means the idea has mutated, as it often does, when it was transmitted to us by way of the Christians. Not unlike our notion of Godhead, which is a modification of the Trinity doctrine. Interestingly, Mormon notions of the soul (the soul being made of some kind of undefined, refined matter) are similar to what Paul believed was the final state of Jesus upon his resurrection - he was made into a life-giving spirit that was still material in some way, leaving the "seed" of his old physical body behind. But the notion of soul as anything other than the breath of life came to the Judeo-Christian tradition by way of Platonic influence. Originally soul just meant "life". Oh gosh. We might as well be talking about the prime mover Yes your parents were paramecia. It just took a "few mutations" to get to you. Or wait were your parents really RNA.? Or a lightning bolt into chemical stew? What about the cloud the caused the lightning bolt? Or the cold front that caused the clouds Or Or When you start down the branch of a tree you never know if the start was in the roots or the seed or the bird who dropped the seed ad infinitum. By the way that is Hume on causality. First you said it was the Greeks and now you say it was Paul. I think we have reached the end of a fruitful discussion on this issue. Edited April 10, 2018 by mfbukowski 1
Gray Posted April 10, 2018 Posted April 10, 2018 (edited) 10 hours ago, RevTestament said: Again, I kinda agree and disagree. The Hebrew language is significantly different from English, and doesn't have near as large a vocabulary. There are fewer words to describe ideas and things. Our Genesis says God blew the breath of life into Adam, and yes it is referring to his spirit. However, there are places where a lot more than an idea of breath is being communicated. See for instance Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. The word nap̄·šî doesn't really carry with it the idea of breath, and is also translated as soul or life. While I can't claim expertise on the subject, I view my soul as where I communicate with God. It is where the spirit resides with mine, and allows communication with mine. I'm not sure what you mean by a dualistic spirit. I don't view my soul as some separate being. It is a place where God can reside within me, even as He did with Yeshua - it is the "divine" aspect of my temporal body. It stays with my body - not my spirit. If the body dies, so does the soul - until resurrection That is my best attempt to describe "soul." I agree that "Mormonism" has not shed itself of all pagan influences. Again, did we not just celebrate "Easter?" Some still use fertility Easter eggs from this pagan tradition. Christmas has many pagan influences as well. However, I do not think the LDS faith is "inseparably tied" with paganism. We do use English words which come out of pagan backgrounds - for instance the very word "God" comes from the pagan Germanic "Gaut." Similarly, in the Semitic languages "el" could be used to refer to a pagan god or power just like Elohim could. I do not share your opinions about the Tanakh. I don't think the Tanakh has experienced a vast purge of pagan gods. Deuteronomy still proclaims God as an El of Elohim. Genesis says man had become like YHWH Elohim, who refers to Himself as "Us." The idea that God is not just a single spirit is all over the OT. The fact that Canaanites referred to God as El does not mean that Hebrews adapted their God from a pagan God. It just means they shared a Semitic language with the Hebrews, and had many of the same words. i would be interested in hearing what you have to say about your so-called Greek orthodox influence on the LDS faith. As I see it, we are vastly different. There is no talk of the incarnate Christ, two natures of Christ, the consubstantial nature of Christ or even the trinity in our Church - all ideas which seem to come from Greek orthodoxy. Just because we may share a handful of traits with Greek orthodoxy doesn't mean we got these traits from Greek Orthodoxy. That's an error you seem all too willing to commit. Doesn't a certain adversarial spirit like to mix the precepts of man with the truths of God? Concluding therefore that common traits means that the LDS faith stole these ideas from another sect based a few similar traits, is not well-founded. Thomson (2008). Bodies of thought: science, religion, and the soul in the early Enlightenment. p. 42. "For mortalists the Bible did not teach the existence of a separate immaterial or immortal soul and the word 'soul' simply meant 'life'; the doctrine of a separate soul was said to be a Platonic importation." What I meant by Greek and orthodoxy was that Greek philosophy influenced what came to be Christian orthodoxy, and some of that filtered into doctrine as well. The Godhead theology is a modification of the trinity, for instance. First century Christians didn't believe in the trinity or in our Godhead. There was God, and there was Jesus, who God raised and vindicated and made divine. Regarding the Canaanite pantheon, if you go back far enough Hebrews are just Canaanites. They shared many of the same gods before the monotheistic reforms - there are even echoes of this in the Bible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Council#Hebrew And of course Yahweh/Jehovah is a God borrowed from trading partners of the ancient Hebrews, and adopted into the pantheon, before finally being conflated with El. We have taken that and separated the two out again, and we've created our own divine council of gods - it's us! Homo sapiens, I mean. Edited April 10, 2018 by Gray
Gray Posted April 10, 2018 Posted April 10, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Oh gosh. We might as well be talking about the prime mover Yes your parents were paramecia. It just took a "few mutations" to get to you. Or wait were your parents really RNA.? Or a lightning bolt into chemical stew? What about the cloud the caused the lightning bolt? Or the cold front that caused the clouds Or Or When you start down the branch of a tree you never know if the start was in the roots or the seed or the bird who dropped the seed ad infinitum. By the way that is Hume on causality. The difference between Mormon concept of soul and orthodox Christian concept of soul is mainly semantics. It operates in the same way regardless. Can float around disembodied, has cognition independent of the body, can inhabit a body, cannot be destroyed. Very Platonic. Quote First you said it was the Greeks and now you say it was Paul. I think we have reached the end of a fruitful discussion on this issue. That's not actually what I said at all. If you read carefully I was pointing out an interesting congruence, as a side note. That's all. Oh well. Edited April 10, 2018 by Gray
JLHPROF Posted April 10, 2018 Posted April 10, 2018 (edited) 28 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: This of course shows that the person uttering the words believed them to be the words of God. We can only know by testimony. If tomorrow morning the prophet said something and finished with the words "thus saith the Lord" we would still have the same opportunity to verify it for ourselves. I am less concerned with the things the prophet isn't giving as the words of God, than I am with the assumptions made by members that the words of the prophets always represent the word of God when God has said nothing on the record in a century. I'd be perfectly fine if God never gave another revelation in words if people would quit assuming every choice made by the Church came by revelation when there are no revelations to investigate. Edited April 10, 2018 by JLHPROF 1
Glenn101 Posted April 10, 2018 Posted April 10, 2018 8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I am less concerned with the things the prophet isn't giving as the words of God, than I am with the assumptions made by members that the words of the prophets always represent the word of God when God has said nothing on the record in a century. I'd be perfectly fine if God never gave another revelation in words if people would quit assuming every choice made by the Church came by revelation when there are no revelations to investigate. Of course then there are the members that assumes that no revelation was given even when the prophet avers that such and such announcement came by the way of revelation..... 1
mfbukowski Posted April 10, 2018 Posted April 10, 2018 46 minutes ago, Gray said: The difference between Mormon concept of soul and orthodox Christian concept of soul is mainly semantics. It operates in the same way regardless. Can float around disembodied, has cognition independent of the body, can inhabit a body, cannot be destroyed. Very Platonic. That's not actually what I said at all. If you read carefully I was pointing out an interesting congruence, as a side note. That's all. Oh well. Dc 88 15 And the spirit and the body are the soul of man. 2
Popular Post The Nehor Posted April 10, 2018 Author Popular Post Posted April 10, 2018 1 hour ago, stemelbow said: So are you saying that today's revelations (the 2015 policy change, or the age change for missionaries, the calling of new apostles) are just as meaningful as Joseph's "thus saith the Lord" revelations? I am not sure if meaningful is the best word. I think that depends on the content. I am saying they are as authentic and sure. 5
The Nehor Posted April 10, 2018 Author Posted April 10, 2018 1 hour ago, ALarson said: Yes, we all have had them or we know of someone who has had similar experiences. I have found this really has nothing to do with whether or not someone is a member of the church. Anyone can have these experiences, IMO and be close to the spirit. It even seems to happen to those who are sinners by our standards. One can be very spiritual and not be religious at all. Being a member of an organized religion isn't what causes a person to be a spiritual person, IMO. And? My faith does not claim to have a monopoly on revelation or miracles.
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