New Revelations and the Future

[Exiled]

Just now, CMZ said:

Good news: "Our Savior and Redeemer, Jesus Christ, will perform some of His mightiest works between now and when He comes again. We will see miraculous indications that God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, preside over this Church in majesty and glory."

Or magician's tricks by his chosen ones? I can't decide. 

So, what are these works? Also, why doesn't he just appear and let us know difinitively who he is and what he is about? I think appearing and communicating to us would be pretty miraculous and convincing.

[JLHPROF]

18 minutes ago, Exiled said:

Or magician's tricks by his chosen ones? I can't decide. 

So, what are these works? Also, why doesn't he just appear and let us know difinitively who he is and what he is about? I think appearing and communicating to us would be pretty miraculous and convincing.

He already did that.  Several times.

But not to the general public so it requires taking someone else's word.

And not recorded on social media so a small amount of faith is still required that it happened.

[The Nehor]

11 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Who said anything about critique?

We read, investigate, study, and are blessed by the recorded revelations of the scriptures every day.  The Church spends countless hours teachings us from the recorded revelation and constantly admonishes us to study them.  The body of recorded revelation is held up as the measuring stick by which all other teachings, practices, and doctrines of the Church are judged.
Moroni 10:4 is quoted ad nauseum as the litmus test for the revelation known as the Book of Mormon.

But no, recorded revelation has been presented for anything revealed or implemented by Church leaders in decades.  Perhaps their "revelations" are too spiritual to be treated as scripture.  When the recent administrative change to the priesthood quorums was made, an uncanonized revelation to John Taylor was used as backing.  Yet no record of God's opinion on the change exists.  Same for almost every change made in the Church in the last century.

And if there was a revelation that read something like:

"Thus saith the Lord your redeemer to the Priesthood of His Church. The office of High Priest shall from henceforth only be active when serving in that capacity and High Priests not acting in such a capacity shall function as Elders in the Elder's Quorum in all respects. I am Alpha and Omega. Amen."

Would that be worth publishing and studying and interpreting?

[CMZ]

46 minutes ago, Exiled said:

Or magician's tricks by his chosen ones? I can't decide. 

So, what are these works? Also, why doesn't he just appear and let us know difinitively who he is and what he is about? I think appearing and communicating to us would be pretty miraculous and convincing.

Yet it still doesn't have the convincing power of the Holy Ghost.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Exiled said:

Or magician's tricks by his chosen ones? I can't decide. 

So, what are these works? Also, why doesn't he just appear and let us know difinitively who he is and what he is about? I think appearing and communicating to us would be pretty miraculous and convincing.

You would think so but probably not.

[JLHPROF]

25 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

And if there was a revelation that read something like:

"Thus saith the Lord your redeemer to the Priesthood of His Church. The office of High Priest shall from henceforth only be active when serving in that capacity and High Priests not acting in such a capacity shall function as Elders in the Elder's Quorum in all respects. I am Alpha and Omega. Amen."

Would that be worth publishing and studying and interpreting?

You say this to mock me but yes. You say this to imply that I am a pedantic little man with the spirituality of a rock, but it's still true. 

It would be a statement that the Lord directs his Church, that whatever difficulty this change may bring is worth overcoming, that someone with more insight and knowledge than a theocratic bureacracy is setting the targets, and that our leaders are not doing these things because they think it's better, but because God thinks it's better.

[The Nehor]

13 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

You say this to mock me but yes. You say this to imply that I am a pedantic little man with the spirituality of a rock, but it's still true. 

It would be a statement that the Lord directs his Church, that whatever difficulty this change may bring is worth overcoming, that someone with more insight and knowledge than a theocratic bureacracy is setting the targets, and that our leaders are not doing these things because they think it's better, but because God thinks it's better.

It seems a silly distinction to me. If you do not trust the leaders who say they are led by revelation why would you trust a written revelation that they would publish?

[CMZ]

17 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

You say this to mock me but yes. You say this to imply that I am a pedantic little man with the spirituality of a rock, but it's still true. 

It would be a statement that the Lord directs his Church, that whatever difficulty this change may bring is worth overcoming, that someone with more insight and knowledge than a theocratic bureacracy is setting the targets, and that our leaders are not doing these things because they think it's better, but because God thinks it's better.

I guess all their statements about calling on the Lord's wisdom don't mean much.

[JLHPROF]

13 minutes ago, CMZ said:

I guess all their statements about calling on the Lord's wisdom don't mean much.

 Not if all their decisions are based on their feelings about an issue, whether they believe them to come from the spirit or not.

[JLHPROF]

17 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

It seems a silly distinction to me. If you do not trust the leaders who say they are led by revelation why would you trust a written revelation that they would publish?

Who said I don't trust them.  I  trust they are doing what they feel is right and best.  But I  trust God more.

[CMZ]

7 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Who said I don't trust them.  I  trust they are doing what they feel is right and best.  But I  trust God more.

So, the whole issue here is really about trusting or not trusting if they are truly the Lord's servants. I guess you feel they are halfway are. And that is your right. Others don't have the same dilemma.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

My Machiavellian interpretation of the new reporting requirements is that now the onus is entirely on the Presidencies. Their job is to interview. Before there was some distance between the Presidencies and the reporting numbers. Now they are directly responsible for the actions that get reported. This encourages those interviews and if you are being interviewed you have more of an impetus to know something about your families so you have something to say.

Note that I do not believe the reporting requirements are the main reason for the change. I think loosening the restrictions on a worldwide level is a big help. For example in Japan where members often work 12 hours a day and can barely see their families Home Teaching was impractical but electronic contact is good. In some of the larger wards where it takes an hour or more to get from one end to the other this is also a help.

The higher law is that we have flexibility. People who do not want home visits do not have to have them. It avoids the 30th/31st deadlines that too often motivated visits. Now a text works. It is more likely we will have weekly contact as opposed to monthly contact. It also places the impetus on the member to know how to proceed with each family. It requires revelation as opposed to one phone call to set up the appointment and reading from a magazine.

If we fail at this and Home and Visiting Teaching come back then we then know for sure it was a lesser law so stay tuned.

We were supposed to be doing ppi's anyway, so really no change.

Call em out during class for a few minutes. No biggie, you have 4 weeks, just do 25 % per week

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

We were supposed to be doing ppi's anyway, so really no change.

Call em out during class for a few minutes. No biggie, you have 4 weeks, just do 25 % per week

It's actually one per quarter. And companions are supposed to be together if possible.

[Marginal Gains]

13 hours ago, Stargazer said:

That's very amusing.

Confirmation bias doesn't usually speak to you in words. What do you think the still, small voice is, anyway?  You don't hear it with your ears, but you hear it.  Sometimes it's not words, but a distinct feeling that one recognizes as confirmation through the spirit.  I once had the "stupor of thought" that is also mentioned in the scriptures.  I had decided to take a particular course of action, and decided to get confirmation in prayer. So I prayed, and as I prayed and came to the matter at hand, I suddenly couldn't speak.  I could not even think of the words I needed to ask what I wanted to ask.  It was as if I went suddenly aphasic.  I knew what I wanted to ask, but couldn't express it.  And then, when I realized what that meant, speech returned to me and I thanked the Lord for correcting me.

You might want to call that "uncomfirmation bias", I suppose.  But I wouldn't.

Why do you suppose that stupor of thought didn’t come to the General Authority who appointed Joseph L Bishop to the MTC Presidents job? Or to the Bishop that called the Primary teacher in Texas who went on and abused children over a period of years?

I used the words ‘reliably’ and ‘objectively’ in my question deliberately. The fact remains, it is impossible to reliably and objectively differentiate between what people call ‘the spirit’ and confirmation bias etc.

[Marginal Gains]

On 10/04/2018 at 5:48 AM, CMZ said:

D&C 10:37 But as you cannot always judge the righteous, or as you cannot always tell the wicked from the righteous, therefore I say unto you, hold your peace until I shall see fit to make all things known unto the world concerning the matter.

I don't think it's correct to say the home teaching program failed. Many stories have been told in the Church of successful and helpful home teaching ministering over the decades. Without knowing it would be done away the next day I finished my home teaching for the month of March 2018 on the 31st (with the other two people on my list having been contacted earlier in the month) and was able to give a blessing to a home teachee in January which helped her overcome a grave illness. Changing it to "ministering" doesn't prove that home teaching "failed" and even with the new program we will still have people who have trouble doing their duty. I'm sure I may even struggle with it at times, as before. Human failings don't prove a revelation failed.

Individual Home Teachers didn’t fail, but the program as a whole clearly did, because it’s being re-labelled to match what members actually do.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Marginal Gains

[Marginal Gains]

On 10/04/2018 at 3:39 AM, The Nehor said:

Externally to a spiritually dead person, not much unless the Spirit is so strong people start weeping. As someone who has been in meetings and councils where the will of the Holy Ghost is powerfully made manifest and have also had the experience of reaching consensus in a corporate management meeting the two are nothing alike.

I attended such a meeting. A General Authority was teaching how the Lord protects the righteous etc and, quite literally people, grown men with leadership responsibility, were weeping with the spirit so moved they were by the General Authorities words. I’ve never seen that kind of an outpouring in a Corporate setting, I guess that’s an example of what you mean.

[Gray]

18 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

The first I suppose.
Canonization is meaningless and always has been.  Things not from God have been canonized.  Things from God have never been considered (that we know of) for canonization.

 

Well, for all we know Joseph Smith got "impressions" too and chose to translate those into a first-person format.

In my mind the bigger issue is lack of canonization. More and more I've come to see that as a problem for the church. Lack of canonization provides an easy loophole when policies go wrong (anything assumed a priori to be revelation can be easily downgraded to mere bureaucratic convenience later) but it leaves members in limbo. The only standard becomes, did a living church leader say so? If that's the case why bother to study scriptures at all? Why learn how to interpret and make judgements? Why study where current attitudes originated? I think it sets a bad precedent.

[Gray]

20 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Dc 88

15 And the spirit and the body are the soul of man.

Soul and spirit are often used interchangeably.

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

We were supposed to be doing ppi's anyway, so really no change.

Call em out during class for a few minutes. No biggie, you have 4 weeks, just do 25 % per week

 

Now they are reported. Also, it is quarterly interviews, not monthly.

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

Individual Home Teachers didn’t fail, but the program as a whole clearly did, because it’s being re-labelled to match what members actually do.

Uhhhhhhh.......no.

[JLHPROF]

8 hours ago, CMZ said:

So, the whole issue here is really about trusting or not trusting if they are truly the Lord's servants. I guess you feel they are halfway are. And that is your right. Others don't have the same dilemma.

Precedent indicates that even servants of the Lord make wrong choices.  Except when God actually speaks to them, and sometimes even then.

[RevTestament]

8 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

Why do you suppose that stupor of thought didn’t come to the General Authority who appointed Joseph L Bishop to the MTC Presidents job? Or to the Bishop that called the Primary teacher in Texas who went on and abused children over a period of years?

I used the words ‘reliably’ and ‘objectively’ in my question deliberately. The fact remains, it is impossible to reliably and objectively differentiate between what people call ‘the spirit’ and confirmation bias etc.

History indicates the Lord works with our present selves - not our potential future sinning selves. 

The Lord called Judas as an apostle, and later we find He knows Judas is betraying Him. So why did He call a betrayer?

In this Church betrayers were also called, and given appointments - only to betray the Lord's trust.

Yeshua really has no choice but to call sinners, since we are all sinners, and we all at times resist His will. 

Yet, the Lord sees great potential in us, and hopes we will learn to make right choices. 

[stemelbow]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

And if there was a revelation that read something like:

"Thus saith the Lord your redeemer to the Priesthood of His Church. The office of High Priest shall from henceforth only be active when serving in that capacity and High Priests not acting in such a capacity shall function as Elders in the Elder's Quorum in all respects. I am Alpha and Omega. Amen."

Would that be worth publishing and studying and interpreting?

Did you say this only to make us realize the whole of scriptures aren't worth publishing and studying and interpreting?  I mean what you write is very much like the type of things found in scriptures that we are supposed to be publishing and studying and interpreting.  

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Now they are reported. Also, it is quarterly interviews, not monthly.

That makes it easier to cover everyone in a quarter. Just check em off the list til next time around.

 

[Exiled]

12 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

He already did that.  Several times.

But not to the general public so it requires taking someone else's word.

And not recorded on social media so a small amount of faith is still required that it happened.

I guess that's the rub.  It just seems wrong to not be able to have more proof when supposedly so much is riding this stuff.  I guess I just don't understand the demand for faith that should make someone suspicious in the real world.  Also, a lack of faith is treated as sin. 

If I came to you and said that I had some documents written by God in my locked briefcase and that belief on these documents was required to make it to the best place in the hereafter, I would guess that you would want to see them and would doubt me prior to seeing them.  If I said further that you are forbidden from seeing them and just have to trust me to explain to you what these documents say, I don't think you would automatically believe and I wouldn't expect you to.  Then, I say to you that you should pray and that if you get a good feeling, at some point, that the good feeling is God telling you to trust me.  There is your answer.  You don't get to see the documents but just have to trust me.  Oh, and by the way, you must sustain me as your leader, give me 10% of your money and clean our buildings periodically.  Sounds like a deal, right?