New Revelations and the Future

[Exiled]

11 hours ago, CMZ said:

Yet it still doesn't have the convincing power of the Holy Ghost.

And there is no way to prove this.  One needs to be taught or led to believe that whatever they experience was the Holy Ghost because it is so close to simple human emotion.  As such, it is highly susceptible to being a tool of manipulation to get people to follow the David Koresh's of the world.

[CMZ]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Precedent indicates that even servants of the Lord make wrong choices.  Except when God actually speaks to them, and sometimes even then.

Okay... So we're all in the same boat.

Please remember the scripture about receiving the prophet's words in all patience and faith (patience seems to be indicated by the Lord as a requirement here) as if from the Lord's own mouth. When there is a verse in the D&C like that I am not sure that a wise course of action is to rail on about how the prophet isn't doing enough.

And from Elder Rasband's talk:

Quote

Changes in organizations and functions of the Church are not uncommon. In 1883 the Lord said to President John Taylor: “[Concerning] the management and organization of my Church and Priesthood … I will reveal unto you, from time to time, through the channels that I have appointed, everything that shall be necessary for the future development and perfection of my Church, for the adjustment and rolling forth of my kingdom.”

This suggests to me that when this revelation was received that the Church still wasn't perfected and fully developed yet. So, IMHO, when we see more development and perfection of the Church we should accept it rather than flying off the handle about how the Church isn't perfect. But everyone has their agency to respond how they want...

[CMZ]

28 minutes ago, Exiled said:

And there is no way to prove this.  One needs to be taught or led to believe that whatever they experience was the Holy Ghost because it is so close to simple human emotion.  As such, it is highly susceptible to being a tool of manipulation to get people to follow the David Koresh's of the world.

I can't remember if David Koresh told his followers to pray about whether he was a prophet or not.

And getting an independent witness from the Holy Ghost is not about making you a blind follower. It's about knowing for oneself so that you will not just have to trust another's word.

[rongo]

34 minutes ago, CMZ said:

I can't remember if David Koresh told his followers to pray about whether he was a prophet or not.

I'm pretty sure this is unique to Mormonism. Almost all other churches and religions do not encourage this as a method for knowing truth.

[Avatar4321]

20 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I'll post those quotes for you.

• Many Christians insist that the age of miracles stopped after the fourth or fifth century. Others insist that miracles have remained, but the miracles they describe after the fourth and fifth centuries pale in comparison to those described in the Primitive Church. 
• Insistence on the discontinuance of revelation comes from the realization that revelation is and has been absent. This explains the rise of explanations such as “these things are no longer needed,” or “these extraordinary things were needed as Christianity started, but are not needed now that it is well-established." --- New Witnesses for God: 1:136-137)

 Wow.  Those quotes sound just like members of the Church today.
Scary.

Strange that any would think miracles have ceased to revelation has ended 

[Exiled]

52 minutes ago, CMZ said:

I can't remember if David Koresh told his followers to pray about whether he was a prophet or not.

And getting an independent witness from the Holy Ghost is not about making you a blind follower. It's about knowing for oneself so that you will not just have to trust another's word.

Well, it is still based on trusting another or others in terms of realizing that the emotion felt was really the Holy Ghost.  When I was on my mission, this was a big area of emphasis, that of convincing the investigator that what they felt was the Holy Ghost and not just some emotion coming from within the person.  If I read this story or that story or from the Book of Mormon and get emotional each time, which is from God and which isn't or are they all from God or none from God?  It is hard to determine this without the group pushing one to believe one way or another.  This is the point of testifying about feeling the Holy Ghost, to encourage the listener to believe the emotion he/she feels is the Holy Ghost and not something else.  It seems that this should not be necessary but it is because one can feel similar emotions to what the Holy Ghost supposedly is in many areas.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, CMZ said:

And from Elder Rasband's talk:

Quote

Changes in organizations and functions of the Church are not uncommon. In 1883 the Lord said to President John Taylor: “[Concerning] the management and organization of my Church and Priesthood … I will reveal unto you, from time to time, through the channels that I have appointed, everything that shall be necessary for the future development and perfection of my Church, for the adjustment and rolling forth of my kingdom.”

 

Yeah, that's not official doctrine.  It's not canonized and therefore isn't binding on the Church.

If we accept that one there are few more revelations to John Taylor and Wilford Woodruff we ought to give a shot.

Edited April 11, 2018 by JLHPROF

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Did you say this only to make us realize the whole of scriptures aren't worth publishing and studying and interpreting?  I mean what you write is very much like the type of things found in scriptures that we are supposed to be publishing and studying and interpreting.  

There are some section of the Doctrine and Covenants and chapters in the Bible (seriously Obadiah.....get it together) that are of minimal worth. There are also many of vital importance. Fortunately the Book of Mormon has almost none of that. Probably why we are told to read it so much.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Exiled said:

And there is no way to prove this.  One needs to be taught or led to believe that whatever they experience was the Holy Ghost because it is so close to simple human emotion.  As such, it is highly susceptible to being a tool of manipulation to get people to follow the David Koresh's of the world.

Actually it is not. Or at least not for me.

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

There are some section of the Doctrine and Covenants and chapters in the Bible (seriously Obadiah.....get it together) that are of minimal worth. There are also many of vital importance. Fortunately the Book of Mormon has almost none of that. Probably why we are told to read it so much.

When you say "almost none" what do you mean?  A few?  Can you think of some examples in that sacred text?

 

[The Nehor]

10 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

When you say "almost none" what do you mean?  A few?  Can you think of some examples in that sacred text?

 

For example I have my doubts that the listing of weights of gold and silver have great edifying or practical value.

[ksfisher]

8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

For example I have my doubts that the listing of weights of gold and silver have great edifying or practical value.

That passage from Alma is interesting.  Interesting because Mormon felt it important to include.  I'm assuming that engraving on the plates took a little bit more time than, say, me typing on my computer right now.  Yet Mormon felt that the time needed to list all of those weights and their values was time well spent.  Listing them does help us to understand that the offered bribe was of considerable value, but it seems like that could have been accomplished in a much more concise manner.  I wish we could understand why Mormon felt it was important.

Edited April 11, 2018 by ksfisher

[stemelbow]

8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

For example I have my doubts that the listing of weights of gold and silver have great edifying or practical value.

Ok.  So I guess we can conclude then the new revelation has no edifying or practical value.

[rongo]

Just now, ksfisher said:

That passage from Alma is interesting.  Interesting because Mormon felt it important to include.  I'm assuming that engraving on the plates took a little bit more time than, say, me typing on my computer right now.  Yet Mormon felt that the time needed to list all of those weights and their values was time well spent.  I wish we could understand why.

1) It represents a system of weights that has been described as the most efficient possible. That's interesting.

2) The system has been described as matching one in place in Mesoamerica [citation needed]

3) Mormon includes it as background to explain just how lucrative of a bribe Zeezrom was offering.

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, stemelbow said:

Ok.  So I guess we can conclude then the new revelation has no edifying or practical value.

You can if you want but I am not going to reach that conclusion. I simply do not see a need for a first person written declaration from God.  The content was thrilling and exciting and I cried when it was revealed and explained.

[ksfisher]

Just now, rongo said:

It represents a system of weights that has been described as the most efficient possible. That's interesting.

Interesting, but not really much more than that without a greater understanding of why Mormon felt it important.

 

2 minutes ago, rongo said:

The system has been described as matching one in place in Mesoamerica [citation needed]

Why would Mormon feel it necessary to teach us this?

2 minutes ago, rongo said:

Mormon includes it as background to explain just how lucrative of a bribe Zeezrom was offering.

I edited my original comment to reflect this as you were writing.  This to me is the only reason, but it takes up a lot of room compared to a simple statement like "this was X days earnings for the average Nephite."

[Jeanne]

15 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

That passage from Alma is interesting.  Interesting because Mormon felt it important to include.  I'm assuming that engraving on the plates took a little bit more time than, say, me typing on my computer right now.  Yet Mormon felt that the time needed to list all of those weights and their values was time well spent.  Listing them does help us to understand that the offered bribe was of considerable value, but it seems like that could have been accomplished in a much more concise manner.  I wish we could understand why Mormon felt it was important.

Yet all that engraving ...and all that hard work and effort to bring it all to future generations..was really never seen..maybe felt as they say...but all interpretation went came from a dark hat and stone.  Why?  To me, God has some explaining to do to all those who spent may days and hours writing for this generation. 

[ksfisher]

3 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Yet all that engraving ...and all that hard work and effort to bring it all to future generations..was really never seen..maybe felt as they say...but all interpretation went came from a dark hat and stone.  Why?  To me, God has some explaining to do to all those who spent may days and hours writing for this generation. 

But Joseph saw them.  And I believe he knew that what he was translating "through the gift and power of the Holy Ghost" was from the plates.  The witnesses saw the plates and the engraving as well and we have their testimony of what they saw.

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Exiled said:

I guess that's the rub.  It just seems wrong to not be able to have more proof when supposedly so much is riding this stuff.  I guess I just don't understand the demand for faith that should make someone suspicious in the real world. 

"Seems wrong".

Is that the best you can do to justify your moral beliefs?

Welcome to the club.  To me it seems right so neener neener.  Your world is as real as you make it and so is mine.

You can string together as many "shoulds" and "rights" or "wrongs" as you like and none of them are based on objective evidence.

Both worlds require faith, yours as much as mine.

Edited April 11, 2018 by mfbukowski

[Jeanne]

11 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

But Joseph saw them.  And I believe he knew that what he was translating "through the gift and power of the Holy Ghost" was from the plates.  The witnesses saw the plates and the engraving as well and we have their testimony of what they saw.

I have been on this board for many years..and i have always mentioned  that I have problems with the witnesses..I am sorry...but I do.

[mfbukowski]

16 hours ago, Exiled said:

Or magician's tricks by his chosen ones? I can't decide. 

So, what are these works? Also, why doesn't he just appear and let us know difinitively who he is and what he is about? I think appearing and communicating to us would be pretty miraculous and convincing.

That is precisely the problem with it.

I think that is what you are not getting.   Your inner values are as subjective as anyone else's and are faith based as well.

Is global warming "Wrong" to the earth?  Does the earth care what species live or die?  Do you care?  Why?

Why was the holocaust wrong?   After all it reduced world population.

[JLHPROF]

25 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

You can if you want but I am not going to reach that conclusion. I simply do not see a need for a first person written declaration from God.  The content was thrilling and exciting and I cried when it was revealed and explained.

There were probably tears of joy the first time the Nicene Creed was read to people.

[JLHPROF]

4 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I have been on this board for many years..and i have always mentioned  that I have problems with the witnesses..I am sorry...but I do.

Such as?

[Jeanne]

5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Such as?

I can't pin point any exact thing...it has always been with me that somehow..they were coerced.

[The Nehor]

11 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

There were probably tears of joy the first time the Nicene Creed was read to people.

I am guessing there were tears but I am guessing they were not of joy. It was a big compromise. People do not generally weep tears of joy at the enactment of a compromise.