Ex-fertility Doctor, Former Mission & Temple President Facing Lawsuit

[bluebell]

10 minutes ago, ttribe said:

And yet we operate within a culture where it has become accepted to state that God intervenes in even the smallest of things (e.g. finding car keys).  Given the level of perceived intervention by the Divine, logically, it makes sense to ask the following kinds of questions - Was God too busy to inspire leaders to remove Bishop? Was God too busy to hear our pleas for a quick end when my dad was diagnosed with cancer? Was God too busy to hear me when I plead for help with the collapse of my testimony? 

You see how that goes for the struggling member?

I do see how it goes (and i've been there myself and will be again in the future because I'm weak), but I think a lot of these issues come from irrational and immature understandings of the gospel and of God.

It's not rational to take a concept such as God can and does intervene in our lives and then become bitter and unbelieving when God does not always intervene in our lives exactly how and when we want Him to.  It's not rational to get mad or upset when God does not behave in a way that the gospel never taught He should behave.  But we all do that sometimes because we are all full of irrational and spiritually immature beliefs that we just haven't purged yet.

That hardest thing we are asked to do as followers of Christ is to believe in a God that blesses but does not always bless, that sometimes let's us have our way, but does not always let us have our way.  One of the hardest scriptures to confront (in my opinion anyway) is Job 1: 21-...The Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord. 

As long as we cannot see any purpose in suffering, we will struggle with having faith in a God that sometimes let's us suffer.

[rongo]

58 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think you are right in that these kinds of answers are unsatisfactory sometimes, usually because we are forced to confront a reality that we don't often want to confront:  If the gospel is true when horrible things are happening to someone else, then there is no reason for it to cease being true when horrible things happen to us.  We. Are. Not. Special.  

We are loved and we are blessed, but we are not immune to heartache and evil and that can be a very unsatisfactory realization because pain is never easy, nor is it usually rational.  

 

32 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think we do speak to much of worthiness and discernment without teaching (especially our youth) that the priesthood does not automatically bestow either.  

We need to teach them that some people are not honest, with themselves or their leaders. Some leaders begin their callings worthy but then sin without real repentance.  Not every member or leader has the gift of discernment (either because they have never sought it or because they don't understand that they actually need to seek it).  God will allow unrighteous people to deceive and use their agency to commit evil in order that His judgements of them will be just.  Sometimes leaders are themselves deceived or just wrong.  And, the hardest to understand, sometimes God uses the wicked to bring about a greater purpose.

More than that though, I think if we taught our youth from a young age that worthiness is between the person and God, then it is much less of a trauma when they learn that the worthiness of other people really doesn't matter.  God will deal with them.  Vengeance is His and He will repay.  When our leaders declare someone (or us) 'worthy' all they are doing is declaring that as far as the church is concerned and knows, they are good enough.  It is not an endorsement by God until or unless the Spirit confirms to us personally that such is the case.  

We have a duty to seek that confirmation, but I don't think that many of us do, rather preferring to treat a calling or an ordination itself as a confirmation. These situations (leaders abusing members) are an example of us reaping what we have sowed.  We have been lazy and left ourselves and others vulnerable.

I think almost all people accept and are fine with the "gospel being true when horrible things are happening to someone else [and] when horrible things happen to us." I don't think concerns about this is because people think that They. Are. Special.

I also don't think that the central issue with this concern is that people are sometimes dishonest with themselves or their leaders, or that some leaders begin callings worthy but sin without real repentance. Or that members either don't seek or understand the gift of discernment. Or that there is a lack of understanding that God's vengeance will take place, or that people need enough rope to hang themselves with, agency-wise. 

I think the larger issue is the belief in absolute omniscience. For those who believe this (most of the Church, I would say), all of the above is true and accepted, but it still doesn't begin to address why or how God would omnisciently call and confirm people who will go on to do horrific things --- and not inspire those who can prevent. I think most people would stop short of saying that it is God's will that a child be raped, for instance. They would say that it was not God's will, but that in the interplay of agency, fallibility, justice, etc. in his wisdom he allowed it to happen and didn't prevent it. 

I think that is also a hard pill for most to swallow, when put like that. 

I think most of us know of clear-cut instances where God's discernment did stop people or prevent things. The question is why God did not do this for the ugly extremes. But, I suppose it's the same question as why God sends an angel to save Alma or try to save Laman and Lemuel, but does not to save XYZ. 

My concern in all of this big picture is that faith, trust, and confidence in discernment and prophecy might take a big hit among members, from which it may not recover or return to prior levels. I worry that the pendulum might swing too far in the other direction (as opposed to a healthy, mature understanding, like you explained). I think that there might be an insidious net result that accrues with the drip, drip, drip of these anecdotes and stories.  

[rongo]

27 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It's not rational to take a concept such as God can and does intervene in our lives and then become bitter and unbelieving when God does not always intervene in our lives exactly how and when we want Him to.  It's not rational to get mad or upset when God does not behave in a way that the gospel never taught He should behave.  But we all do that sometimes because we are all full of irrational and spiritually immature beliefs that we just haven't purged yet.

That hardest thing we are asked to do as followers of Christ is to believe in a God that blesses but does not always bless, that sometimes let's us have our way, but does not always let us have our way.  One of the hardest scriptures to confront (in my opinion anyway) is Job 1: 21-...The Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord. 

I don't think this is what those with concerns along these lines are doing. I think that almost all people accept these principles (at least "in principle"  ), and do not demand 100% happiness with no affliction or trials --- or that God always intervene. It is the extremes that are hard, such as when high church leaders are not weeded out with discernment or when they commit heinous sins while in office. I think it is things like this that give people pause. 

Doubly so if people are covered for in a good ol' boy system. I think this takes some of the "heat" off of God, though. 

Elder Albert Carrington (an apostle) committed adultery blatantly and was excommunicated, and pled on his deathbed to be able to be buried in his temple clothes. He was reinstated, without baptism, I believe. I think this sort of nepotistic "coverage" happens, especially within some prominent Church families. I hope that it doesn't happen with Joseph Bishop, if he is guilty about what Denson is claiming.

[kllindley]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

This is all very true. It really is. But take the extreme examples (a bishop who forcibly rapes children, while a bishop). If God knew he would do that, and inspired the call, and didn't inspire leaders and others to prevent it, I hope you can see why this could be a very troubling testimony shaker, and without charging those troubled by it with lack of faith in the atonement. 

It is a troubling concern. It is one I would love for the Brethren to directly address something like this in a talk some time, but it would be a very difficult talk. "We grow through affliction, agency is *that* important, the atonement heals everything, and leaders aren't infallible" --- while the best answer that can be given --- is very unsatisfactory for a lot of good people who are not looking for a pretext to rage against the Church. 

I guess I'm not really clear on what you are saying here. I don't mean to imply or suggest that people troubled by abuses of power are lacking faith in the sense of a personal weakness or failing. It seems that if anything causes one's testimony to be shaken, that would would mean it wasn't yet unshakable. My faith was certainly shaken when my Bishop made some hurtful comments and gave some terrible advice. I might have weathered the blow by relying on "leaders are imperfect." But thankfully, instead I was given the opportunity to taste of the Christ's power to heal through the atonement. It was as if Christ had personally taken full responsibility for the mistakes of His servant and was personally compensating the error in full. That was far more powerful and healing than an apology from the Bishop (which I did get) and much, much more meaningful for me than if the Bishop had been released it never called because of his bigoted views. 

[rockpond]

5 minutes ago, kllindley said:

I guess I'm not really clear on what you are saying here. I don't mean to imply or suggest that people troubled by abuses of power are lacking faith in the sense of a personal weakness or failing. It seems that if anything causes one's testimony to be shaken, that would would mean it wasn't yet unshakable. My faith was certainly shaken when my Bishop made some hurtful comments and gave some terrible advice. I might have weathered the blow by relying on "leaders are imperfect." But thankfully, instead I was given the opportunity to taste of the Christ's power to heal through the atonement. It was as if Christ had personally taken full responsibility for the mistakes of His servant and was personally compensating the error in full. That was far more powerful and healing than an apology from the Bishop (which I did get) and much, much more meaningful for me than if the Bishop had been released it never called because of his bigoted views. 

That’s a really good example of how we ought to approach these issues.

The events of the last two weeks of March have certainly shaken the faith of many members.  And rightfully so as church leaders never should have sought to cover up the abuses   I pray that we can all feel the healing power of Christ through this tough time.

 

[Thinking]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

It's not rational to take a concept such as God can and does intervene in our lives and then become bitter and unbelieving when God does not always intervene in our lives exactly how and when we want Him to.  It's not rational to get mad or upset when God does not behave in a way that the gospel never taught He should behave.  But we all do that sometimes because we are all full of irrational and spiritually immature beliefs that we just haven't purged yet.

That hardest thing we are asked to do as followers of Christ is to believe in a God that blesses but does not always bless, that sometimes let's us have our way, but does not always let us have our way.  One of the hardest scriptures to confront (in my opinion anyway) is Job 1: 21-...The Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord. 

As long as we cannot see any purpose in suffering, we will struggle with having faith in a God that sometimes let's us suffer.

Perhaps general authorities should refrain from making promises over the pulpit.

Quote

I promise you, if you will heed the voice of warning of the Holy Ghost and will follow His direction, you will be blessed with the ministering of angels, which will add wisdom, knowledge, power, and glory to your life. Remember, the Lord is bound by solemn covenant to bless our lives according to our faithfulness. L. Tom Perry

 

[ttribe]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I do see how it goes (and i've been there myself and will be again in the future because I'm weak), but I think a lot of these issues come from irrational and immature understandings of the gospel and of God.

It's not rational to take a concept such as God can and does intervene in our lives and then become bitter and unbelieving when God does not always intervene in our lives exactly how and when we want Him to.  It's not rational to get mad or upset when God does not behave in a way that the gospel never taught He should behave.  But we all do that sometimes because we are all full of irrational and spiritually immature beliefs that we just haven't purged yet.

That hardest thing we are asked to do as followers of Christ is to believe in a God that blesses but does not always bless, that sometimes let's us have our way, but does not always let us have our way.  One of the hardest scriptures to confront (in my opinion anyway) is Job 1: 21-...The Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord. 

As long as we cannot see any purpose in suffering, we will struggle with having faith in a God that sometimes let's us suffer.

One, I don't think I said anything about ALWAYS being happy or ALWAYS getting what we want out of prayer. I'm talking about getting a positive result from prayer when it absolutely matters the most.  Two, I don't think referring to someone's struggles with the effectiveness of prayer (in this case, mine are sprinkled in there) as coming from "irrational and immature understandings of the gospel and of God" is either universally accurate or helpful.  I can assure you, at least in my case, that I did everything I could over a 40 year period to build a strong foundation of understanding and applying rational thought. 

ETA: I can speak only for myself, but when I felt like the heavens were closed to me in several crucial instances of my life, I reached one of the lowest points I've ever been and went to some very dark areas of my mind.  None of that strengthened my faith; quite the opposite, actually.

Edited April 9, 2018 by ttribe

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

I don't think this is what those with concerns along these lines are doing. I think that almost all people accept these principles (at least "in principle"  ), and do not demand 100% happiness with no affliction or trials --- or that God always intervene. It is the extremes that are hard, such as when high church leaders are not weeded out with discernment or when they commit heinous sins while in office. I think it is things like this that give people pause. 

Doubly so if people are covered for in a good ol' boy system. I think this takes some of the "heat" off of God, though. 

Elder Albert Carrington (an apostle) committed adultery blatantly and was excommunicated, and pled on his deathbed to be able to be buried in his temple clothes. He was reinstated, without baptism, I believe. I think this sort of nepotistic "coverage" happens, especially within some prominent Church families. I hope that it doesn't happen with Joseph Bishop, if he is guilty about what Denson is claiming.

They accept it in theory, but not in practice, and in practice is what I'm talking about.  

Like I said earlier, most Christians don't struggle to believe that God is real and the gospel (however they define it) is true when other people are suffering, other children are being burned, other wives and daughters are being raped or tortured, etc. That's not to say that they don't mourn with other people who mourn or struggle with the question of evil when there is so much sadness in the world, but typically, those kinds of situations don't cause them to doubt their own testimonies. But when they or their loved ones suffer those afflictions, then the doubts arise.  Why?  Theoretical testimonies are spiritually immature and can be irrational.

[rongo]

5 minutes ago, ttribe said:

One, I don't think I said anything about ALWAYS being happy or ALWAYS getting what we want out of prayer. I'm talking about getting a positive result from prayer when it absolutely matters the most.  Two, I don't think referring to someone's struggles with the effectiveness of prayer (in this case, mine are sprinkled in there) as coming from "irrational and immature understandings of the gospel and of God" is either universally accurate or helpful.  I can assure you, at least in my case, that I did everything I could over a 40 year period to build a strong foundation of understanding and applying rational thought. 

ETA: I can speak only for myself, but when I felt like the heavens were closed to me in several crucial instances of my life, I reached one of the lowest points I've ever been and went to some very dark areas of my mind.  None of that strengthened my faith; quite the opposite, actually.

You said this a lot better than I was able to. While people don't expect God to always answer prayers or to always protect and make things right (I don't think anyone actually believes that), if there is no perceived benefit from prayer, the gospel, belief, etc. "when it absolutely matters the most," then I can absolutely empathize with that. That hasn't been my experience (quite the opposite), but I'm sure that if it were my experience, I would feel differently. And that gets to that core question of why God "comes through" for some people at crucial times, and doesn't for others. Intellectually, we know that the answer is "for some wise purpose, in his wisdom," but that isn't terribly helpful when you're the one he didn't come through for. 

Again. This is the single toughest issue to help people with, next to which all others pale in comparison. 

[rongo]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

They accept it in theory, but not in practice, and in practice is what I'm talking about.  

Like I said earlier, most Christians don't struggle to believe that God is real and the gospel (however they define it) is true when other people are suffering, other children are being burned, other wives and daughters are being raped or tortured, etc. That's not to say that they don't mourn with other people who mourn or struggle with the question of evil when there is so much sadness in the world, but typically, those kinds of situations don't cause them to doubt their own testimonies. But when they or their loved ones suffer those afflictions, then the doubts arise.  Why?  Theoretical testimonies are spiritually immature and can be irrational.

And ttribe eloquently discussed the flip side: when it doesn't work in practice, even though you know the answers in theory. 

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, ttribe said:

One, I don't think I said anything about ALWAYS being happy or ALWAYS getting what we want out of prayer. I'm talking about getting a positive result from prayer when it absolutely matters the most. 

But that just means that you only want to have faith or believe that God is involved with your life when God agrees with you about what matters most, or behaves how you want Him to in important matters.  Is believing that you should always get your way 'when it absolutely matters' really any different than believing that you should always get your way? (To clarify, i'm not saying that in a snarky or judgmental manner).

Quote

Two, I don't think referring to someone's struggles with the effectiveness of prayer (in this case, mine are sprinkled in there) as coming from "irrational and immature understandings of the gospel and of God" is either universally accurate or helpful.  I can assure you, at least in my case, that I did everything I could over a 40 year period to build a strong foundation of understanding and applying rational thought. 

I referred to my own struggles that way as well.  All of us are spiritually immature and irrational at times.  We are weak and flawed humans, prone to emotional responses, with a very very limited understanding of God or the universe.  

Quote

ETA: I can speak only for myself, but when I felt like the heavens were closed to me in several crucial instances of my life, I reached one of the lowest points I've ever been and went to some very dark areas of my mind.  None of that strengthened my faith; quite the opposite, actually.

I've had some similar experiences.  They are horrible.  I really want to believe that I won't ever have them again but I seriously doubt that will be the case.  I hope that you are doing better.  

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, rongo said:

And ttribe eloquently discussed the flip side: when it doesn't work in practice, even though you know the answers in theory. 

I've never known anyone who 1) had a testimony of the Gospel, or 2) declared faith in Christ, who had never had prayer work in practice.  Do you know some people like that?

Edit-In my experience, most people have had practical experience with prayer working, but when it doesn't work at a time when they really wanted it to, they they doubt the validity of their previous experiences.  (and again, I'm not saying this in a judgmental way or meaning to be critical.  I feel like i need to keep saying that because I want the tone of these posts to be clear.)

Edited April 9, 2018 by bluebell

[ttribe]

4 minutes ago, rongo said:

You said this a lot better than I was able to. While people don't expect God to always answer prayers or to always protect and make things right (I don't think anyone actually believes that), if there is no perceived benefit from prayer, the gospel, belief, etc. "when it absolutely matters the most," then I can absolutely empathize with that. That hasn't been my experience (quite the opposite), but I'm sure that if it were my experience, I would feel differently. And that gets to that core question of why God "comes through" for some people at crucial times, and doesn't for others. Intellectually, we know that the answer is "for some wise purpose, in his wisdom," but that isn't terribly helpful when you're the one he didn't come through for. 

Again. This is the single toughest issue to help people with, next to which all others pale in comparison. 

The bolded portion - In my case, four separate instances spread out over a number of years, and the last one almost sent me over an irreversible edge.

[rongo]

Just now, bluebell said:

I've never known anyone who 1) had a testimony of the Gospel, or 2) declared faith in Christ, who had never had prayer work in practice.  Do you know some people like that?

Yes, but I wouldn't say "never had prayer work in practice." For them, prayer "worked" for things that comparatively were insignificant, but didn't "when the chips were down." 

It's easy to judge people from our vantage point of God "coming through" for us, but I know some good people who didn't set out to have monumental faith crises who have really had their faith tested. 

You are right that it is ultimately a test of Job for all of us.

[ttribe]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

But that just means that you only want to have faith or believe that God is involved with your life when God agrees with you about what matters most, or behaves how you want Him to in important matters.  Is believing that you should always get your way 'when it absolutely matters' really any different than believing that you should always get your way? (To clarify, i'm not saying that in a snarky or judgmental manner).

I don't know. Does it matter that three people died horrible deaths when they really didn't need to?  Does it matter that I desperately needed to have my testimony reaffirmed and couldn't get it?  Does it matter that I can no longer justify belief in a system I cherished for most of my life?  Does it matter that my family is falling apart because of these things?

No, I'm not doing better.  At all.

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I've never known anyone who 1) had a testimony of the Gospel, or 2) declared faith in Christ, who had never had prayer work in practice.  Do you know some people like that?

Hi, there! 

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, ttribe said:

I don't know. Does it matter that three people died horrible deaths when they really didn't need to?  Does it matter that I desperately needed to have my testimony reaffirmed and couldn't get it?  Does it matter that I can no longer justify belief in a system I cherished for most of my life?  Does it matter that my family is falling apart because of these things?

No, I'm not doing better.  At all.

Hi, there! 

So why did you have faith in God in the first place if you'd never had any experiences with Him or the Spirit?  

Edited April 9, 2018 by bluebell

[ttribe]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

So why did you have faith in God in the first place if you'd never had any experiences with Him or the Spirit?  

Well, without getting into too much personal detail - I reevaluated my past experiences in light of new information and experiences.

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, ttribe said:

I don't know. Does it matter that three people died horrible deaths when they really didn't need to?  Does it matter that I desperately needed to have my testimony reaffirmed and couldn't get it?  Does it matter that I can no longer justify belief in a system I cherished for most of my life?  Does it matter that my family is falling apart because of these things?

No, I'm not doing better.  At all.

Hi, there! 

I'm so sorry.  That is so hard.

Of course those things matter.  I'm not asking if our suffering (or the suffering of others) matter, or if it matters when heaven is silent.  I'm asking, is our faith tied to being saved from really suffering?  Are we only willing to believe when we get the answer that matters most to us?  It's a personal question and is between us and God.  I know that there are some things that could happen in my life that would make it incredibly difficult to answer that in the affirmative for me.  There are some pains that I cannot imagine suffering and not having my anger at God consume any faith I had in Him.  My faith is weak. 

[bluebell]

19 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Well, without getting into too much personal detail - I reevaluated my past experiences in light of new information and experiences.

It sounds like what happened to you is what I edited and added to my previous post to Rongo.

"Edit-In my experience, most people have had practical experience with prayer working, but when it doesn't work at a time when they really wanted it to, they they doubt the validity of their previous experiences." I totally get that.

[Calm]

24 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Well, without getting into too much personal detail - I reevaluated my past experiences in light of new information and experiences.

To clarify, does this mean you previously thought you had answers to prayer that you believe now were not?  (trying to understand what you are saying, not be critical at all...my daughter says she never experienced the spirit, I have no reason not to believe her even if it appeared to me when she was younger that the way she described her experiences was the spirit because she says that was just her doing what she saw as appropriate given what we had taught her).

add-on:  Bluebell posted while I was writing this, but I am going to let it stand.

Edited April 9, 2018 by Calm

[ttribe]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

To clarify, does this mean you previously thought you had answers to prayer that you believe now were not?  (trying to understand what you are saying, not be critical at all...my daughter says she never experienced the spirit, I have no reason not to believe her even if it appeared to me when she was younger that the way she described her experiences was the spirit because she says that was just her doing what she saw as appropriate given what we had taught her).

add-on:  Bluebell posted while I was writing this, but I am going to let it stand.

 The answer to your opening question is yes.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Thinking said:

Perhaps general authorities should refrain from making promises over the pulpit.

 

They definitely shouldn't refrain from doing that.  What members need to do is to stop interpreting those promises as 'being blessed means that God will never allow me or my loved ones to ever really suffer."

[Bernard Gui]

18 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

But here’s the thing. And please correct me if I’m reading your posts wrong. You seem to be saying that the lack of marriage equality in the past was a ‘problem’, but the expansion of marriage equality in the present is a ‘problem’. Your disapproval of marriage equality now does not imply your disapproval of marriage equality in the past.

Do I have that about right?

No, you have nothing right. I fully subscribe to the Proclamation  on the Family. Therefore I think it is odd that two women can get together, do something they call marriage, and then take turns being the mommy by being AI’d by unknown (or even known men). No one is taking turns being daddy. This is an odd “family arangement.” Maybe not to you. I don’t think adoption is odd. In fact, it’s a great blessing.

“THE FAMILY is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ.“

You brought up the past by suggesting that I want to go back to the days of slavery, subjugation of women, blood letting(seriously?), the Priesthood restriction, whatever other past thing you can off-load on me. I’m surprised you did not include burning witches at the stake, since that’s what Bernardo Gui would have suggested. 

Edited April 10, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Kenngo1969]

I recognize that much of what I have experienced, many of you would scoff at and say dismissively (and rightly so, in my view), "Hmph!  He considers that a trial?  He should walk a mile in my shoes! Then, he'd know what real trials are!"  Touché!  I get it, totally.  I really do.  But I can only speak to what I know.  For me, on some subjects, The Heavens Are Absolute, Pure Brass ... perhaps Brilliantly-Polished Brass, mind you, but still Absolute, Pure Brass, nonetheless.  Honestly, I have absolutely no idea why.  Perhaps I really am not nearly good enough.  Or perhaps it's simply part of my personalized, individualized trial.  Or perhaps it's simply a result of living in a fallen world.  Or perhaps it's a combination of these reasons, along with others too numerous to mention.

Anyone who has violated a sacred trust likely will not look forward to standing in front of Our Maker trying to concoct plausible reasons for the violation, but his standing before God is between God and him, and my standing before God is between God and me.  The latter is more than enough for me to worry about.  Speaking solely of my personal situation and not of anyone else's circumstances, I might be led to ask, "Why has [x] happened?" Or, if it's an earnestly-sought-after, righteous desire, "Why hasn't [x] happened?"

And yet, other times, I've had absolute peace spoken to my very soul, such as the experiences I've related which have occurred as I've lain on an operating table waiting to be put under.  The only answers I really have are: (1) God isn't Santa Claus, who gives "presents" to His "good" children and "lumps of coal" to His "bad" children; and (2) Essentially, God has told me, in light of the earlier "did-I-not-speak-peace-to-your-mind" experiences I've had with Him (see Doctrine and Covenants 6:22-23), "Yes, Ken.  Sure.  If you choose, you can discount the 'Did-I-not-speak-peace-to-your-mind' experiences we've had together.  If you choose, you can accord much greater weight to the 'Brass-Heavens' experiences.  But that's your choice, and it's one only you can make.  Or, you can choose, as I've told you before, to not forget how you felt on January 24 and February 14, 1984, and on June 7, 1985, and on other, similar occasions."

No holds barred and no punches pulled?  Honestly, there are times when a big part of me wants to "curse God, and die" (and, frankly, even in a literal sense), as Job's wife told him he should do (see Job 2:9).  Because, honestly, sometimes I wonder, what in the world is the point to my continued existence when a big part of the last quarter-century feels, for me, like Groundhog Day writ large: "Yep!  Been here, done this!"  No, I'm not going to do anything drastic, but it's not because I'm all aquiver with anticipation about what's around the next bend ("Tomorrow!  That's the day I'll finally get my big break!"  ), but, rather, simply because I hope (and believe) that the Apostle Paul was right when he wrote the Romans, "All things [not just the "good" stuff and not just the things we understand, but all things] work together for the good of them that love God" (Romans 8:28).

As much as I might want to "go away," however, just as many of Christ's disciples "went back, and walked no more with Him" after hearing His "hard sayings," when Christ asks me, "Will ye also go away?"  I hope to answer as Peter did: "Lord, to whom shall (I) go?  thou hast the words of Eternal Life."  (See John 6:66-69).

Edited April 10, 2018 by Kenngo1969

[HappyJackWagon]

17 hours ago, bluebell said:

I think we do speak to much of worthiness and discernment without teaching (especially our youth) that the priesthood does not automatically bestow either.  

We need to teach them that some people are not honest, with themselves or their leaders. Some leaders begin their callings worthy but then sin without real repentance.  Not every member or leader has the gift of discernment (either because they have never sought it or because they don't understand that they actually need to seek it).  God will allow unrighteous people to deceive and use their agency to commit evil in order that His judgements of them will be just.  Sometimes leaders are themselves deceived or just wrong.  And, the hardest to understand, sometimes God uses the wicked to bring about a greater purpose.

More than that though, I think if we taught our youth from a young age that worthiness is between the person and God, then it is much less of a trauma when they learn that the worthiness of other people really doesn't matter.  God will deal with them.  Vengeance is His and He will repay.  When our leaders declare someone (or us) 'worthy' all they are doing is declaring that as far as the church is concerned and knows, they are good enough.  It is not an endorsement by God until or unless the Spirit confirms to us personally that such is the case.  

We have a duty to seek that confirmation, but I don't think that many of us do, rather preferring to treat a calling or an ordination itself as a confirmation. These situations (leaders abusing members) are an example of us reaping what we have sowed.  We have been lazy and left ourselves and others vulnerable.

 

Your use of the word "bestow" reminded me of my ordination as bishop. During that ordination I was specifically bestowed with the gift of discernment. I remember because I was a little surprised by the wording. I wasn't "blessed" with the gift contingent on my worthiness. I wasn't counseled to "seek" the gift. It was "bestowed". I believed that meant that I now possessed that gift. I think it was reasonable for me to view it that way. Also, anyone who was present could reasonably have taken it that way. So IF I possessed this extremely important gift, it becomes more problematic when I don't seem to have great spiritual discernment.

I don't know if the bestowal of the gift of discernment is part of the required language of the ordination (I suspect not) but I do know it's fairly common as I've heard other bishop ordinations and have talked to other bishops about it. Bishops are blessed with the gift of discernment and there doesn't typically seem to be any strings attached to it since it is for the benefit of the people in the ward, not the bishop himself. I have to think that if bishops are given this gift of discernment, then individuals in higher callings, from SP up to the 70, Q12, FP, would all be granted this gift as well. So if they are given this gift, presumably from God for the blessing of the people, then I have to wonder where the break down is when there is an obvious lack of discernment. Sure, we can blame the individual who possesses the gift of rejecting it or failing to utilize the gift, but in most cases I believe the individual seeks and works hard to exercise the gift. I believe they trust in the gift only to have it fail.

I mention that to suggest that it's a hard thing to one hand talk about this gift of discernment as a great blessing to the church but then discount it when it fails.

I also think its hard to teach youth (or anyone) that worthiness is only between the person and God when the message is emphatically taught that a person must be worthy to attend the temple, hold certain callings, receive priesthood ordinations etc. As long as youth are being interviewed for worthiness at least a couple of time per year, it's going to be  hard sell explaining that their worthiness is between them and God. I think it would be amazing if the church returned to the concepts of personal worthiness through relationship with God and the ability of the individual to commune with God instead of relying on the arm of the flesh (others who claim to have communed with God on our behalf).