bluebell Posted April 10, 2018 Posted April 10, 2018 (edited) 32 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: Your use of the word "bestow" reminded me of my ordination as bishop. During that ordination I was specifically bestowed with the gift of discernment. I remember because I was a little surprised by the wording. I wasn't "blessed" with the gift contingent on my worthiness. I wasn't counseled to "seek" the gift. It was "bestowed". I believed that meant that I now possessed that gift. I think it was reasonable for me to view it that way. Also, anyone who was present could reasonably have taken it that way. So IF I possessed this extremely important gift, it becomes more problematic when I don't seem to have great spiritual discernment. I agree, I think it was very reasonable for you and anyone else present to assume that's how it works. But, we know from Elder Nelson's GC talk (when he spoke of how seasoned members don't really even understand the difference between giving someone a blessing and saying a nice prayer with their hands on their heads), that culturally we often need a shift in our thinking when it comes to blessing people in church or setting them apart. I just chose to use the word 'bestow' at random because it fit the cadence of the sentence, but hopefully the words of a blessing, like when someone is being set apart, are not chosen at random or just because they sound good. Our scriptures teach that discernment is one of the gifts of the spirit. I suppose it could be bestowed but in my understanding, gifts of the spirit need to be sought after and cultivated. Quote I also think its hard to teach youth (or anyone) that worthiness is only between the person and God when the message is emphatically taught that a person must be worthy to attend the temple, hold certain callings, receive priesthood ordinations etc. As long as youth are being interviewed for worthiness at least a couple of time per year, it's going to be hard sell explaining that their worthiness is between them and God. I think it would be amazing if the church returned to the concepts of personal worthiness through relationship with God and the ability of the individual to commune with God instead of relying on the arm of the flesh (others who claim to have communed with God on our behalf). I think that when people are taught what it means when a bishop implies worthiness it will help them to understand worthiness better. Just like how a bishop does not actually forgive sins (Christ does that) but still can declare that someone is forgiven when the formal repentance process is over as far as the church is concerned and his calling as a judge in Israel, worthiness interviews do not actually pronounce anyone worthy (that's between them and God). What worthiness interviews do is proclaim that as far as the church is concerned, the person's conduct and beliefs--as they have been proclaimed--are suitable to do or receive whatever blessing is being sought. Youth need to better understand what a judge in Israel is and what he does and doesn't do. That would solve a lot of the problems right there. Edited April 10, 2018 by bluebell 4
HappyJackWagon Posted April 10, 2018 Posted April 10, 2018 15 minutes ago, bluebell said: I agree, I think it was very reasonable for you and anyone else present to assume that's how it works. But, we know from Elder Nelson's GC talk (when he spoke of how seasoned members don't really even understand the difference between giving someone a blessing and saying a nice prayer with their hands on their heads), that culturally we often need a shift in our thinking when it comes to blessing people in church or setting them apart. I just chose to use the word 'bestow' at random because it fit the cadence of the sentence, but hopefully the words of a blessing, like when someone is being set apart, are not chosen at random or just because they sound good. Our scriptures teach that discernment is one of the gifts of the spirit. I suppose it could be bestowed but in my understanding, gifts of the spirit need to be sought after and cultivated. I think that when people are taught what it means when a bishop implies worthiness it will help them to understand worthiness better. Just like how a bishop does not actually forgive sins (Christ does that) but still can declare that someone is forgiven when the formal repentance process is over as far as the church is concerned and his calling as a judge in Israel, worthiness interviews do not actually pronounce anyone worthy (that's between them and God). What worthiness interviews do is proclaim that as far as the church is concerned, the person's conduct and beliefs--as they have been proclaimed--are suitable to do or receive whatever blessing is being sought. Youth need to better understand what a judge in Israel is and what he does and doesn't do. That would solve a lot of the problems right there. This is a great point. I think there is often a conflation between church and God. I think that conflation is harmful and manifests in many ways, including the one you are mentioning here. 2
Duncan Posted April 10, 2018 Posted April 10, 2018 42 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: Your use of the word "bestow" reminded me of my ordination as bishop. During that ordination I was specifically bestowed with the gift of discernment. I remember because I was a little surprised by the wording. I wasn't "blessed" with the gift contingent on my worthiness. I wasn't counseled to "seek" the gift. It was "bestowed". I believed that meant that I now possessed that gift. I think it was reasonable for me to view it that way. Also, anyone who was present could reasonably have taken it that way. So IF I possessed this extremely important gift, it becomes more problematic when I don't seem to have great spiritual discernment. I don't know if the bestowal of the gift of discernment is part of the required language of the ordination (I suspect not) but I do know it's fairly common as I've heard other bishop ordinations and have talked to other bishops about it. Bishops are blessed with the gift of discernment and there doesn't typically seem to be any strings attached to it since it is for the benefit of the people in the ward, not the bishop himself. I have to think that if bishops are given this gift of discernment, then individuals in higher callings, from SP up to the 70, Q12, FP, would all be granted this gift as well. So if they are given this gift, presumably from God for the blessing of the people, then I have to wonder where the break down is when there is an obvious lack of discernment. Sure, we can blame the individual who possesses the gift of rejecting it or failing to utilize the gift, but in most cases I believe the individual seeks and works hard to exercise the gift. I believe they trust in the gift only to have it fail. I mention that to suggest that it's a hard thing to one hand talk about this gift of discernment as a great blessing to the church but then discount it when it fails. I also think its hard to teach youth (or anyone) that worthiness is only between the person and God when the message is emphatically taught that a person must be worthy to attend the temple, hold certain callings, receive priesthood ordinations etc. As long as youth are being interviewed for worthiness at least a couple of time per year, it's going to be hard sell explaining that their worthiness is between them and God. I think it would be amazing if the church returned to the concepts of personal worthiness through relationship with God and the ability of the individual to commune with God instead of relying on the arm of the flesh (others who claim to have communed with God on our behalf). I think i've said this before but my Mom has this gift of discerning, even though I don't think she has had hands laid on her head and given it. she just can tell when people are lying or deceiving, as she calls them "greasy" or slick, like you are being sold something that is a load of hud. She's always had it. On a related note I remember growing up and hearing people say when they got released from their mission they literally felt "the mantle" leave them, as in it was some physical sensation. So, when I was sitting in the SP office and he told me to take of my name tag, I was fully expecting this sensation of the mantle leaving but I felt nothing. I didn't feel any different going in as I was going out. I figure I never had it or it never left me 4
Jeanne Posted April 10, 2018 Posted April 10, 2018 5 hours ago, Duncan said: I think i've said this before but my Mom has this gift of discerning, even though I don't think she has had hands laid on her head and given it. she just can tell when people are lying or deceiving, as she calls them "greasy" or slick, like you are being sold something that is a load of hud. She's always had it. On a related note I remember growing up and hearing people say when they got released from their mission they literally felt "the mantle" leave them, as in it was some physical sensation. So, when I was sitting in the SP office and he told me to take of my name tag, I was fully expecting this sensation of the mantle leaving but I felt nothing. I didn't feel any different going in as I was going out. I figure I never had it or it never left me I wonder if this depends on the kind of mission experience one has... 1
katherine the great Posted April 10, 2018 Posted April 10, 2018 5 hours ago, Duncan said: I remember growing up and hearing people say when they got released from their mission they literally felt "the mantle" leave them, as in it was some physical sensation. So, when I was sitting in the SP office and he told me to take of my name tag, I was fully expecting this sensation of the mantle leaving but I felt nothing. I didn't feel any different going in as I was going out. I figure I never had it or it never left me I've noticed three basic types of people who have shared this experience (simply from my own experiences and observations): 1. People who take their responsibilities very seriously who are also keenly spiritual (and I believe them). 2. People who normally are just "the person next door" who on occasion have a profound spiritual experience (I believe them too) and 3. Narcissists who are basically just lying. 4
Duncan Posted April 10, 2018 Posted April 10, 2018 57 minutes ago, katherine the great said: I've noticed three basic types of people who have shared this experience (simply from my own experiences and observations): 1. People who take their responsibilities very seriously who are also keenly spiritual (and I believe them). 2. People who normally are just "the person next door" who on occasion have a profound spiritual experience (I believe them too) and 3. Narcissists who are basically just lying. I agree with all that! I haven't heard it in quite awhile. I just chalk it up to people keeping to themselves-seriously!!!!!!! hahahahaha!
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