ksfisher Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 24 minutes ago, Duncan said: we want the truth!!! isn't he in that business?last time I checked the scriptures "Latter-day Saints do not expect God to simply hand down information. He expects us to wrestle with the complications of life through prayerful searching and sound thinking." https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormon-and-modern 2
Duncan Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 4 minutes ago, smac97 said: He very well may. That's an interesting imponderable. What God does or does not do is sometimes that way, particularly if it is predicated on human beings presuming to pass moral judgments on Him. He is omnipotent and omniscient. And He loves us. And He is the "God of Truth." The scope of his knowledge and understanding, and His goodness, far surpasses ours. He may. Or He may not. I have found this quote from Joseph Smith to be helpful: God may or may not provide public guidance on this issue. On balance, I'd say "probably not." Those who have stewardship and responsibilities may receive inspiration, but for the rest of us, I think not. Thanks, -Smac If Bishop's leaders or whoever has or had stewardship over him and haven't sought guidance then they or the Church deserve everything that they get. Iit could have been avoided but either they sought revelation but God figures, this isn't worth it to give guidance about(what does that say about God then?) or no one has sought his guidance about this and we are stewing about it. This isn't exactley a little matter like the color of Kolob
Exiled Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 3 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Probably not. Conclusions seem to align with ideological positions. Bias is always a possibility. So what do you make of Bishop saying he molested someone? That seems like a tough one to overcome, regardless of ideology.
ksfisher Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 7 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I could see the Holy Ghost gluing him in. I'd pay to see that! 1
Duncan Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 Just now, ksfisher said: "Latter-day Saints do not expect God to simply hand down information. He expects us to wrestle with the complications of life through prayerful searching and sound thinking." https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormon-and-modern sounds like they've been dealing with this since the 1980's, what is God waiting for? can Bishop all of a sudden become lucid. If God expects us to figure it all out, then what good is the Holy Ghost? Why do we need him then? if we got it all figured out, who needs him then
Exiled Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 28 minutes ago, smac97 said: How do you know? There is also no evidence of rape other than what you wish to believe. The difference here is that I am applying a presumption of innocence. You are not. I don't know the man. I had never heard of him before this story came out. I am not defending him. I am declining to judge or condemn him based on highly suspect evidence. Thanks, -Smac Ive said it looks like he did something with the woman. Also, she says no penetration so no rape.
jkwilliams Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 Just now, Exiled said: Bias is always a possibility. So what do you make of Bishop saying he molested someone? That seems like a tough one to overcome, regardless of ideology. My guess is that there’s something to it, but I can’t discount being biased because, as everyone knows, my hatred for the church knows no bounds. 😉
Bernard Gui Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 2 hours ago, rockpond said: I also prefer reading. But in this case, I think of lot of information is lost in just reading it. There is a lot of emotion and inflection that is relevant. Emotion can be deceptive, especially when it is angry, vindictive, confused, defensive, shocked, possibly drug or mental illness induced.
Hamba Tuhan Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 3 minutes ago, Duncan said: If God expects us to figure it all out, then what good is the Holy Ghost? Why do we need him then? if we got it all figured out, who needs him then For what it may be worth, I strongly suspect that answers to these and similar questions will never come from any source external to your own personal familiarity with God. 1
Exiled Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 46 minutes ago, Danzo said: Wouldn't there be a companion to the girl at the MTC? Should could be interviewed to corroborate Bishop at the MTC, and possibly to the girl's state of mind after the alleged incident. (of course the 30+years time laps would make her memories unreliable). This is why we have a statute of limitations, to get the trial when the evidence is fresh. The most disturbing thing to me is the the idea that this girl is experienced with accusing men falsely of this particular crime. If that were true, then all credibility of the accuser would be lost and there would be no hope of prosecuting the case unless a more credible witness were to appear. There are a lot of if's that certainly warrant more investigation and obviously that would be more difficult today, but not impossible. Historians, lawyers, and prosecutors do this kind of thing all the time.
Jeanne Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 I am not a judge..nor a jury...but as a citizen and former mormon..I stand all amazed at the hoops people go through.. 2
Bernard Gui Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 3 hours ago, The Nehor said: To be fair this board’s conclusions do not matter. Absolutely. We should be aware that a lot more people read what we say than participate in the dialogue.
Exiled Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 4 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: My guess is that there’s something to it, but I can’t discount being biased because, as everyone knows, my hatred for the church knows no bounds. 😉 I do feel the darkness in you at times
rockpond Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said: Emotion can be deceptive, especially when it is angry, vindictive, confused, defensive, shocked, possibly drug or mental illness induced. And you should apply reasonable judgment. But the audio does add to our understanding of what took place.
Exiled Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said: Absolutely. We should be aware that a lot more people read what we say than participate in the dialogue. But it is fun to discuss these things, right?
rockpond Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Jeanne said: I am not a judge..nor a jury...but as a citizen and former mormon..I stand all amazed at the hoops people go through.. It's interesting to me that so many people will assume he is innocent and just suffering from dementia (which IS a possible conclusion) but they won't give the same benefit of the doubt to the woman and accept that her version of events could be true. Edited March 21, 2018 by rockpond 3
smac97 Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 3 minutes ago, rockpond said: It's interesting to me that so many people will assume he is innocent and just suffering from dementia (which IS a possible conclusion) but they won't give the same benefit of the doubt to the woman and accept that her version of events could be true. She's not being accused on misconduct. She is doing the accusing against another person. All other things being equal, as between a "benefit of the doubt" for the accused and a "benefit of the doubt" for the accuser, the former has to predominate. It has to. Put yourself in the crosshairs, Rockpond. Suppose someone made unsubstantiated accusations of rape against you. Or a loved one. Wouldn't you want that "benefit of the doubt?" Thanks, -Smac
CV75 Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 12 minutes ago, rockpond said: It's interesting to me that so many people will assume he is innocent and just suffering from dementia (which IS a possible conclusion) but they won't give the same benefit of the doubt to the woman and accept that her version of events could be true. Absolutely. It's interesting to me that the MTC had a DVD player in 1984. 2
bluebell Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 32 minutes ago, rockpond said: I think you are correct to consider him innocent until proven guilty. But we also need to apply that same courtesy to the woman. We must also be open to the possibility that she was telling the truth and is innocent of the accusations being placed on her. In that case, I think the possibility that she is an innocent victim and that her account of events is accurate, should also give us pause. Even if I doubt the accusation, I don’t necessarily think she has to be lying then. Like I said earlier, she sounds like she’s had a rough life with trauma at a young age. I also heard that she is a recovering alcoholic (which I’m not saying is true or not but just factoring in the possibility). Confabulation *could* explain something like this with no wrongdoing on her part.
smac97 Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 4 minutes ago, CV75 said: Absolutely. It's interesting to me that the MTC had a DVD player in 1984. I noticed that. I assumed it was a slip on her part, as she immediately corrects herself by saying "VHS player." Let's not make her an "offender for a word." Or anyone else, for that matter. Thanks, -Smac 2
Exiled Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 1 minute ago, bluebell said: Even if I doubt the accusation, I don’t necessarily think she has to be lying then. Like I said earlier, she sounds like she’s had a rough life with trauma at a young age. I also heard that she is a recovering alcoholic (which I’m not saying is true or not but just factoring in the possibility). Confabulation *could* explain something like this with no wrongdoing on her part. So, delusional accuses dementia and we've all had a good time discussing the issues .....
Jeanne Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, bluebell said: Even if I doubt the accusation, I don’t necessarily think she has to be lying then. Like I said earlier, she sounds like she’s had a rough life with trauma at a young age. I also heard that she is a recovering alcoholic (which I’m not saying is true or not but just factoring in the possibility). Confabulation *could* explain something like this with no wrongdoing on her part. Just my own experience with family members and friends...the most truthful people you will ever meet..are recovering alcoholics..they live by it...or they will die by it.
Duncan Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 7 minutes ago, CV75 said: Absolutely. It's interesting to me that the MTC had a DVD player in 1984. "Small Wonder" came out in 1985, so a DVD player in 1984, ah sure!
Bernard Gui Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Exiled said: But it is fun to discuss these things, right? Um, no. I was on the receiving end of serious false accusations that became public. It was terrifying. Whenever this stuff comes up, I can easily conger up those feelings. Edited March 21, 2018 by Bernard Gui
bluebell Posted March 21, 2018 Posted March 21, 2018 5 minutes ago, Exiled said: So, delusional accuses dementia and we've all had a good time discussing the issues ..... People are so incredibly complex, and mental, emotional, and physical trauma can create such unique and seemingly bizarre outcomes, that I don’t personally think it’s smart to come at this as if these two people are a typical man and woman. I don’t believe that any scenario is true, but I’m leaving open the possibilities that time, circumstances, and trauma could be impacting the credibility of the recorded interview. 1
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