Prohibition, Yea or Nay

[pogi]

I didn't want to derail the end times thread further, so I thought I'd start a new thread about prohibition.  The argument was made that porn should be illegal.  I thought that the prohibition of porn was a bad idea given the net negative consequences that the prohibition of alcohol had on America.  Hamba posted the following link as evidence of prohibition's success:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1470475/

Any thoughts on Hamba's thread or my following response is welcome.  

Thanks for the link.  I read it, but am not convinced. It is looking at prohibition through a very narrow lens.

Yes, we did see a decline in cirrhosis rates because of prohibition, but this article fails to mention that we also saw an increase in acute alcoholism.  Bootleggers started making their own, often tainted beverages, with a much higher alcoholic content - this combination led to death - lots of death.

Quote

The trade in unregulated alcohol had serious consequences for public health. As the trade in illegal alcohol became more lucrative, the quality of alcohol on the black market declined. On average, 1000 Americans died every year during the Prohibition from the effects of drinking tainted liquor.

The economic consequences were devastating.

The consequences on legal systems were also devastating with an overflowing of prisons and an overburdened legal system.

Quote

The growth of the illegal liquor trade under Prohibition made criminals of millions of Americans. As the decade progressed, court rooms and jails overflowed, and the legal system failed to keep up. Many defendants in prohibition cases waited over a year to be brought to trial. As the backlog of cases increased, the judicial system turned to the "plea bargain" to clear hundreds of cases at a time, making a it common practice in American jurisprudence for the first time.

And of course the consequences of prohibition on organized crime is unquestionable. 

Quote

This great demand for and simultaneous illegalization of alcohol opened up a new illegal market for the gangster to develop and monopolize. As Al Capone put it, "All I do is to supply a public demand … somebody had to throw some liquor on that thirst. Why not me?" (Sullivan, 111).

Some good links on how prohibition affected organized crime:

http://www.umich.edu/~eng217/student_projects/nkazmers/organizedcrime2.html

http://prohibition.themobmuseum.org/the-history/the-rise-of-organized-crime/the-mob-during-prohibition/

Quote

its unintended consequences were far more far reaching than its few benefits.

http://www.pbs.org/kenburns/prohibition/unintended-consequences/

I don't deny that cirrhosis rates declined significantly with prohibition.  But if you compare today's cirrhosis rates with those of prohibition, cirrhosis rates are lower now then they were during prohibition, yet alcohol is legal.

https://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh27-3/209-219.htm

Why did the rates drop ater the 70's? 

Quote

Other studies of the relationship between cirrhosis mortality rates and aggregate, or population, levels of treatment and AA membership rates support the hypothesis that increases in treatment and AA membership helped reduce cirrhosis mortality rates, both in the United States and elsewhere. Several studies (for a review, see Smart and Mann 2000) have found an association between reductions in cirrhosis morbidity and mortality and increased levels of treatment and AA membership in Canada (Mann et al. 1988b), the United States (Mann et al. 1991), and Sweden (Leifman and Romelsjš 1997; Romelsjš 1987). Examining monthly cirrhosis mortality data from North Carolina, Holder and Parker (1992) found that alcohol abuse treatment had a significant short–term lagged relationship with cirrhosis mortality, with an increase in treatment being followed 3 months later by a decline in cirrhosis mortality. Finally, Smart and colleagues (1996) found that increased funding for alcoholism treatment was associated with cirrhosis mortality reductions across the United States. Thus, the data so far provide strong support for the proposition that if a large enough portion of the population participates, AA membership and alcohol abuse treatment can influence cirrhosis morbidity and mortality rates at the population level.

So it appears that effective treatment for addiction is just as effective, if not more effective then any prohibition, without the negative consequences.

If pornography became illegal, I don't even want to imagine what would happen and the desperate measures that people would take to get their fix, nor the horrific measures that would be taken to supply the demand. 

It appears from our lessons with cirrhosis and prohibition, the more effective route is investing in treatment rather then giving our money to organized crime. 

Edited March 17, 2018 by pogi

[SamuelTheLamanite]

Comparing porn with alcohol is not a good idea because pornography is much worst. Pornography is more comparable to cocaine because it is highly destructive.

Pornography  consequences are the exact opposite of the blessings we get in the church. If you read the testimonies of Mormons online or if you simply listen to the testimonies in sacrament meeting you will realize the church is a blessing in our lives. You can read extraordinary miracle stories of how the church has been a great blessing.

If you go to a porn addiction recovery forum or meeting  you will read or listen to sad stories. There are many stories of how negatively porn has destructively affected the lives of many. There is no doubt in my mind pornography is the exact opposite of the church because is only causes misery and it makes the spirit go away.

Reading so many stories makes me come to the conclusion that pornography is very destructive and should be illegal. The law should punish the people who produce pornography. Like cocaine we cannot tolerate it. 

Edited March 17, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite

[carbon dioxide]

I say nay.  If we believe in agency, then people should have the agency to choose whatever they want and reap the consequence of that choice.  It seems many members believe in agency but when it comes to it being actually followed in mortality, they are fairly quick to deny agency by prohibiting stuff.  As long as it directly does not affect the safety of others, we should go on the side of agency. 

Edited March 17, 2018 by carbon dioxide

[pogi]

20 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Comparing porn with alcohol is not a good idea because pornography is much worst. Pornography is more comparable to cocaine because it is highly destructive.

Pornography  consequences are the exact opposite of the blessings we get in the church. If you read the testimonies of Mormons online or if you simply listen to the testimonies in sacrament meeting you will realize the church is a blessing in our lives. You can read extraordinary miracle stories of how the church has been a great blessing.

If you go to a porn addiction recovery forum or meeting  you will read or listen to sad stories. There are many stories of how negatively porn has destructively affected the lives of many. There is no doubt in my mind pornography is the exact opposite of the church because is only causes misery and it makes the spirit go away.

Reading so many stories makes me come to the conclusion that pornography is very destructive and should be illegal. The law should punish the people who produce pornography. Like cocaine we cannot tolerate it. 

I am not trying to argue that porn is good.  I am arguing that prohibition is bad for all the reasons I mentioned.

I am a recovering addict myself.  I understand how destructive it can be.  But making it illegal will not solve the problem.  1) Because porn is not the problem when it comes to addiction, it is a symptom of a problem, and 2) because making it illegal will only push it underground - leading to much, much bigger problems.  I guarantee that we will see an increase in human trafficking to fuel the illegal industry, voyerism (peeping Tomming/hidden camera's, etc.).  

[Storm Rider]

I believe in agency, but I don't think that society needs to flaunt evil just to ensure that individuals have a choice.

I am against making it illegal; however, I do support restrictions to access.  This reminds me of the same discussion about the decriminalization of drugs, which I support.  I appreciate some of the information I have read about Amsterdam and how they have dealt with the entire drug issue.  It appears to be a successful process we should emulate.  

I also believe in the benefits of teaching morality in schools. I don't have a problem with prayer in schools as long as the daily prayer/mediation is not restricted to a specific religion and no one is forced to participate.  I don't have any patience for the entire atheist argument - don't participate, but sit still and be respectful of others be they Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Jain, or any other legitimate religion. 

I also don't have a problem with legalizing prostitution like they do in Amsterdam.  I just happen to believe with a liberal society we should teach strong moral lessons to build character, integrity, self-control, etc.  Society should do this not because we want a religious society,  but we want a healthy, balanced, intelligent society.  

[SamuelTheLamanite]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

 1) Because porn is not the problem when it comes to addiction, it is a symptom of a problem,

What problem?

1 hour ago, pogi said:

2) because making it illegal will only push it underground - leading to much, much bigger problems.  I guarantee that we will see an increase in human trafficking to fuel the illegal industry, voyerism (peeping Tomming/hidden camera's, etc.).  

We are a nation of laws. We punish prostitution, public urination, backside groping, and many more immoralities. A new law in Minnesota makes backside groping "punishable by up to a year in prison and a $3,000 fine". It is a new law I praise.

If prohibition doesn't work then what is the point of having laws?  Kuwait and Macau punish pornography use. Are the values in Kuwait and  Macau declining? The truth is that Kuwait and Macau are religious and prosperous. I believe our society would be so much better without pornography. Sexual violence and other crimes would decrease without pornography.

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I am a recovering addict myself.  I understand how destructive it can be.].  

I hope you completely recover. Please share your story. We want to hear your story of how pornography has been very destructive on your life. We also want to hear you story on hoe the church has been a blessing on your life.

The church makes you happy, pornography makes brings misery. I have no doubt pornography is the complete opposite of the church.

40 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

I also don't have a problem with legalizing prostitution like they do in Amsterdam.  I just happen to believe with a liberal society we should teach strong moral lessons to build character, integrity, self-control, etc.  Society should do this not because we want a religious society,  but we want a healthy, balanced, intelligent society.  

Women are not objects.  Pornography objectifies women. For the natural man is the enemy of God Mosiah 3:19. Worldly men need to learn how to respect women. Pornography is a lack of respect towards women. 

Edited March 17, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

If pornography became illegal, I don't even want to imagine what would happen and the desperate measures that people would take to get their fix, nor the horrific measures that would be taken to supply the demand. 

Anyone with a point and shoot camera or an iPhone can make pornography and are already doing it. There is no way to defend pornography. There is nothing redeeming or edifying about it. It serves no purpose, gives no quarter, enriches corrupt people. 

It's simply pure evil. Our working 12 years in the Addiction Recovery Program, witnessing the destruction that follows porn addiction, and trying to help people pick up the pieces of their lives, usually without success, have made this claim undeniable.

Edited March 17, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[SamuelTheLamanite]

13 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Anyone with a point and shoot camera or an iPhone can make pornography and are already doing it. There is no way to defend pornography. There is nothing redeeming or edifying about it. It's simply pure evil. Our 12 years working in the Addiction Recovery Program has made this undeniable.

Very nice. Can you please share some stories of how pornography has destroyed the life of many. I completely agree pornography is pure evil, I suspect porn is the church of the devil.

The church is the exact opposite. On Mormon.org we can read so many stories of how our church has saved marriages and many more miracles. I am confident you have never heard a positive story from pornography users. 

Here is a powerful story on Mormon.org . "The Church has completely saved my family and I. This has been the most fulfilling experience of my entire life" https://www.mormon.org/me/3TKB/RandyDoCDockery

13 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Anyone with a point and shoot camera or an iPhone can make pornography and are already doing it.

and that is why we need laws to punish those who produce and distribute pornography.

39 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

I also don't have a problem with legalizing prostitution like they do in Amsterdam.

What? are you serious?

 

Edited March 17, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite

[california boy]

1 hour ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Very nice. Can you please share some stories of how pornography has destroyed the life of many. I completely agree pornography is pure evil, I suspect porn is the church of the devil.

The church is the exact opposite. On Mormon.org we can read so many stories of how our church has saved marriages and many more miracles. I am confident you have never heard a positive story from pornography users. 

Here is a powerful story on Mormon.org . "The Church has completely saved my family and I. This has been the most fulfilling experience of my entire life" https://www.mormon.org/me/3TKB/RandyDoCDockery

and that is why we need laws to punish those who produce and distribute pornography.

What? are you serious?

 

You are looking at pornography strictly through the lense of Mormonism. Should we pass laws against everything that has the potential of destroying families and causing destructive behavior? Be careful how you answer that question.

Edited March 17, 2018 by california boy

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

You are looking at pornography strictly through the lense of Mormonism. Should we pass laws against everything that has the potential of destroying families and causing destructive behavior? Be careful how you answer that question.

Yes, and since divorce is one of the greatest destroyers of families I suggest we ban marriage as it is a prerequisite for divorce. If you do not marry you cannot divorce. It is the first step on that slippery slope.

Marriage: Not Even Once

[Marginal Gains]

Satan’s Plan has merit...

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Marginal Gains said:

Satan’s Plan has merit...

And unmerited suffering is redemptive.

[Storm Rider]

9 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

What? are you serious?

Yes, I am serious. I think the objective should be safe, clean environments for a practice that will persist whether it is legal or not. Care for the workers so they are protected physically, without any need for pimps, and where they can have consistent medical care.  

In doing so I think society takes away the mystery of such things and allows for a more healthy option. 

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Yes, and since divorce is one of the greatest destroyers of families I suggest we ban marriage as it is a prerequisite for divorce. If you do not marry you cannot divorce. It is the first step on that slippery slope.

Marriage: Not Even Once

If you have no expectations you can never be disappointed.

[Duncan]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Yes, and since divorce is one of the greatest destroyers of families I suggest we ban marriage as it is a prerequisite for divorce. If you do not marry you cannot divorce. It is the first step on that slippery slope.

Marriage: Not Even Once

it's like what Groucho Marx said, "marriage is the leading cause of divorce"!

[Jeanne]

It wouldn't make a difference..I believe it would just create a big money black market for porn.

[california boy]

Taking away agency is a great plan. I think a third of us will support you in this plan

Edited March 17, 2018 by california boy

[Jeanne]

40 minutes ago, california boy said:

Taking away agency is a great plan. I think a third of us will support you in this plan

[Danzo]

I am in favor of local Prohibition but not in national prohibition. (drugs, marijuana, pornography, alcohol)

I like the Idea of a dry county or even a state, but not the idea of prohibition on a national level.

That way people can change the law locally or move to an area that better reflects their moral (or immoral) values.

I don't think these things (pornography, drugs and alcohol) should be criminalized. 

Just a civil fine should do as a deterrent. A way of saying we don't like that stuff in this town (county, State) and we will make it uncomfortable for you if you have it here but we won't go through the effort of trying to put you in jail over it.

 

Edited March 17, 2018 by Danzo

[strappinglad]

With the rise of the internet , prohibition of porn is IMPOSSIBLE !. That said, there should be electronic and political ways to keep porn out of the home and public sphere as wanted. 

[pogi]

15 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

What problem?

 

15 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

We are a nation of laws. We punish prostitution, public urination, backside groping, and many more immoralities. A new law in Minnesota makes backside groping "punishable by up to a year in prison and a $3,000 fine". It is a new law I praise.

Backside groping, public urination, etc. are violations of other peoples rights, and should be illegal - porn and prostitution are not. 

The second you give the government power to restrict the liberties of others because you disagree with their morality and lifestyle, you put yourself in danger of having your own liberties taken from you by the government.  Keep the government out of the bedroom and private lives. 

15 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

If prohibition doesn't work then what is the point of having laws?  Kuwait and Macau punish pornography use. Are the values in Kuwait and  Macau declining? The truth is that Kuwait and Macau are religious and prosperous. I believe our society would be so much better without pornography. Sexual violence and other crimes would decrease without pornography.

I have already answered this.  But the point of laws are not to restrict personal liberties, but to protect them - to protect others from violating your life, liberty, and property...

If you think pornography is going to go away by making it illegal, you need to rethink that.   If you take the drug from an addict, they will get their fix in other ways, leading to more, not less, sexual misconduct. 

15 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

I hope you completely recover. Please share your story. We want to hear your story of how pornography has been very destructive on your life. We also want to hear you story on hoe the church has been a blessing on your life.

Thank you. Yes, porn has been very destructive in my life.  I don't care to get into specifics with you in this format.  But porn is only the symptom of my disease.  If you take away porn, it would simply manifest itself in other damaging ways.  Making porn illegal is not going to fix anyone - we have much bigger problems in society that government doesn't have the power or capacity to solve.  We cannot legislate these core problems (often generational and familial) away, it takes the atonement. 

As much as you want to force recovery on people, you can't.  

 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

I am in favor of local Prohibition but not in national prohibition. (drugs, marijuana, pornography, alcohol)

I like the Idea of a dry county or even a state, but not the idea of prohibition on a national level.

That way people can change the law locally or move to an area that better reflects their moral (or immoral) values.

They already tried that:

 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

I am in favor of local Prohibition but not in national prohibition. (drugs, marijuana, pornography, alcohol)

I like the Idea of a dry county or even a state, but not the idea of prohibition on a national level.

That way people can change the law locally or move to an area that better reflects their moral (or immoral) values.

I don't think these things (pornography, drugs and alcohol) should be criminalized. 

Just a civil fine should do as a deterrent. A way of saying we don't like that stuff in this town (county, State) and we will make it uncomfortable for you if you have it here but we won't go through the effort of trying to put you in jail over it.

You don't see that as an overreach of government - governing our personal lives and restricting our liberties?  No one should have to sell the home that they have raised their family and move out of a state/county in order to continue their lifestyle of choice without fines. So long as their lifestyle does not infringe upon my rights, life, liberties, and property, the government has no right. 

Prohibition is unconstitutional.  The government needed to create an amendment to the constitution for the prohibition of alcohol.  That amendment failed.  It is the only amendment to ever have been repealed from the constitution.  Yet, even without an amendment, the government acts in unconstitutional ways, with the prohibition of drugs, prostitution, etc. 

  

Edited March 17, 2018 by pogi

[Danzo]

21 minutes ago, pogi said:

 

Backside groping, public urination, etc. are violations of other peoples rights, and should be illegal - porn and prostitution are not.

 

In your opinion only.

You must be getting your information about prostitution from TV or the Movies.

have you ever spent any time among real prostitutes?

Its not all consensual fun and games.

 

[Danzo]

6 minutes ago, pogi said:

You don't see that as an overreach of government - governing our personal lives and restricting our liberties?  No one should have to sell the home that they have raised their family and move out of a state/county in order to continue their lifestyle of choice without fines. So long as their lifestyle does not infringe upon my rights, life, liberties, and property, the government has no right. 

Prohibition is unconstitutional.  The government needed to create an amendment to the constitution for the prohibition of alcohol.  That amendment failed.  It is the only amendment to ever have been repealed from the constitution.  Yet, even without an amendment, the government acts in unconstitutional ways, with the prohibition of drugs, prostitution, etc. 

  

I think that much of what government does would be considered overreach.  That ship sailed long ago.

I work in a profession that involves government overreach in the most intimate parts of people's lives.  I remember arguing in court one day about how the presence of a golf digest magazine on someone's desk in their home affected the amount of tax someone had to pay.

I believe that communities have a right to create a moral environment that is conducive to that community's values.  The law, however is a blunt instrument. 

I don't believe people should be put in jail for most crimes. (what do we do with someone who gets caught stealing a car? we make them spend time with other car thiefs so they can become better at stealing cars in a couple of years when they get out).

We can and should use our communitys and laws for the protection of public morals.

I suppose you would like to have a liquor store in the school cafeteria?

Perhaps penthouse magazine in the school library?

Gun Shop in the children's play area?

No?

Then you are in favor of using the law to promote public morals.