Danzo Posted March 17, 2018 Posted March 17, 2018 20 minutes ago, The Nehor said: They already tried that: They are still trying and doing that in places. Ever hear of a dry county? Ever hear of the bureau of Alcohol Tobbaco and Firearms? Ever hear of state liquor commissions? Government regulation of morals. Its happening everywhere. I now have to support things that I believe are immoral (same sex marriage comes to mind).
pogi Posted March 17, 2018 Author Posted March 17, 2018 32 minutes ago, Danzo said: In your opinion only. You must be getting your information about prostitution from TV or the Movies. have you ever spent any time among real prostitutes? Its not all consensual fun and games. If it is not consensual, then it should be illegal. The point is that legalization would better regulate the industry, making it consensual and safer.
strappinglad Posted March 17, 2018 Posted March 17, 2018 35 minutes ago, pogi said: If it is not consensual, then it should be illegal. The point is that legalization would better regulate the industry, making it consensual and safer. I can see your point , but someone has to make a decision about where the line is for consent. Is 13 OK but 12 not? What if the parents of a 10 year old give permission for her use as a sex slave ? Parental Consent? Every law has a moral backdrop. It also interferes with the behavior of Somebody and their agency.
Danzo Posted March 17, 2018 Posted March 17, 2018 58 minutes ago, pogi said: If it is not consensual, then it should be illegal. The point is that legalization would better regulate the industry, making it consensual and safer. its not that simple. That is real life. Not TV. Not Hollywood. Most prostitution is engaged in by people who are desperate and feel there is no other alternative. Try going in to the neighborhood where the hookers hang out sometime. Talk to them, I have. These are not people who have just decided on whim to do some consensual business transactions. These are people with no hope. People who are desperate, people who are being taken advantage of. What about the wives and the children of the Johns. Did they consent? Did the wife consent to get a venereal disease from her disgusting husband? You seem to live in some fantasy world where extramarital sex, drug and alcohol use, has no consequences for anyone other than the two consenting (maybe?) people involved in the act. What about the child who just got killed by a drunk driver? Did he consent? Or the woman who gets beat to a pulp every time her boyfriend/ husband gets drunk. Why don't you talk to her about what she was consenting to.
pogi Posted March 17, 2018 Author Posted March 17, 2018 51 minutes ago, Danzo said: I think that much of what government does would be considered overreach. That ship sailed long ago. Therefor we should let it continue to sail further, and further out of reach? Think of what the word "overreach" means. Should we be complacent when that happens? 59 minutes ago, Danzo said: I believe that communities have a right to create a moral environment that is conducive to that community's values. The law, however is a blunt instrument. The rights of a community stops at the point it begins to infringe upon my personal liberties protected by the constitution. Morals are better dealt with in the family and religious community. Once government starts enforcing morals, your own morals are no longer protected in the long run. 1 hour ago, Danzo said: I don't believe people should be put in jail for most crimes. (what do we do with someone who gets caught stealing a car? we make them spend time with other car thiefs so they can become better at stealing cars in a couple of years when they get out). Amen! On that, we are agreed. 1 hour ago, Danzo said: We can and should use our communitys and laws for the protection of public morals. I would simply switch out the word "morals" with "liberties". There will never be consensus when it comes to morals. The morals of minority groups need to be protected too, so long as they do not infringe upon my personal liberties. 1 hour ago, Danzo said: I suppose you would like to have a liquor store in the school cafeteria? Perhaps penthouse magazine in the school library? Gun Shop in the children's play area? No? Then you are in favor of using the law to promote public morals. I am in favor of protecting the liberties of legally independent and competent/accountable adults. I have said nothing of the competency of children to make adult decisions. That is a matter of competency, and those found to be incompetent under law, need to be protected from such decisions. 1
Bernard Gui Posted March 17, 2018 Posted March 17, 2018 2 hours ago, strappinglad said: With the rise of the internet , prohibition of porn is IMPOSSIBLE !. That said, there should be electronic and political ways to keep porn out of the home and public sphere as wanted. Indeed.
Danzo Posted March 17, 2018 Posted March 17, 2018 13 minutes ago, pogi said: The rights of a community stops at the point it begins to infringe upon my personal liberties protected by the constitution. I am not sure I recall prostitution being a constitutionally protected right. 16 minutes ago, pogi said: Once government starts enforcing morals, your own morals are no longer protected in the long run. All law is someone's morals enforced by the state.
Bernard Gui Posted March 17, 2018 Posted March 17, 2018 (edited) 21 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Very nice. Can you please share some stories of how pornography has destroyed the life of many. Those stories are told in confidential meetings, so I can’t share them here; however, there is a general pattern that seems to be repeated....the person (usually male) is exposed to pornography in his early teens and, sadly, more frequently, even earlier now. He becomes habituated and secretive, struggles to control or eliminate it but with limited success engendering serious guilt patterns, persists through later teen years and into adulthood while maintaining secrecy even through mission, marriage, and responsible employment and religious position, then is discovered usually by accident or carelessness, and then the shock waves spread among the loved ones, especially spouses and children, often resulting in estrangement, divorce, family members taking sides, loss of employment, loss of church membership, costly rehab programs and counseling, and general chaos. One story I can share because it became national public news is that of an acquaintance who lost his law enforcement job and his family after a passerby observed him watching porn on the computer screen in his squad car and reported him. His experience mirrored what I described above. It’s Satan’s perfect tool of destruction yet we argue whether or not it should be legal. What a world we live in! Edited March 18, 2018 by Bernard Gui 2
Bernard Gui Posted March 17, 2018 Posted March 17, 2018 2 hours ago, pogi said: If it is not consensual, then it should be illegal. The point is that legalization would better regulate the industry, making it consensual and safer. There are a number of things that are consensual but illegal.
SamuelTheLamanite Posted March 17, 2018 Posted March 17, 2018 (edited) 18 hours ago, california boy said: You are looking at pornography strictly through the lense of Mormonism. Should we pass laws against everything that has the potential of destroying families and causing destructive behavior? Be careful how you answer that question. Why? You think the church destroys families? Go to Mormon.org and read all the stories of happy families https://www.mormon.org/me/3TKB/RandyDoCDockery The gospel of Jesus Christ unites the family. Pornography does the exact opposite. Mormonism is a blessing to the world. 39 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Those stories are told in confidential meetings, so I can’t share them here; however, there is a general pattern that seems to be repeated....the person (usually male) is exposed to pornography in his early teens and even before, sadly. He becomes habituated and secretive, struggles to control or eliminate it but with limited success engendering serious guilt patterns, persists through later teen years and into adulthood while maintaining secrecy even through mission, marriage, and responsible employment and religious position, then is discovered usually by accident or carelessness, and then the shock waves spread among the loved ones, especially spouses and children, often resulting in estrangement, divorce, family members taking sides, loss of employment, costly rehab programs and counseling, and general chaos. Pornography is so horrible, but we have the gospel to fight it. In sacrament meeting we can hear just the opposite. During Fast and Testimony meeting we hear stories of sacrifice, unity, love, peace, miracles, testimony. Do you invite the members of your meetings to church? Please tell them the church is pure and good. Pornography is dangerous and destructive. 10 hours ago, Storm Rider said: Yes, I am serious. I think the objective should be safe, clean environments for a practice that will persist whether it is legal or not. Care for the workers so they are protected physically, without any need for pimps, and where they can have consistent medical care. In doing so I think society takes away the mystery of such things and allows for a more healthy option. No. We can't have a Sodom and Gomorrah here the United States. Prostitution is against the laws of God and it must be punished. Ever wonder why prostitution is not legal in 49 states? Edited March 17, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite
Bernard Gui Posted March 18, 2018 Posted March 18, 2018 11 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Do you invite the members of your meetings to church? Please tell them the church is pure and good. Yes, they are invited.
SamuelTheLamanite Posted March 18, 2018 Posted March 18, 2018 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Yes, they are invited. Very good brother. Please share to them stories of how wonderful the gospel is. There are so many stories of how the church saves and strengthens marriages https://www.mormon.org/searchresults#?query=marriage&filter=member You are doing the Lords work Bernard Gui. Please keep helping men to recover from the destructive power of pornography. Do you have a website where I can donate for your good cause? How much money can I donate brother? 5 hours ago, pogi said: The second you give the government power to restrict the liberties of others because you disagree with their morality and lifestyle, you put yourself in danger of having your own liberties taken from you by the government. Pornography is highly addictive and it destroys the life of men who view it. Pornography destroys marriages and families. Pornography disrespects women and it is a form of sexual harassment. Imagine someone buying a pornographic magazine and the cashier is a woman, how do you think the cashier would feel? Pornography destroys everything in it's path. 5 hours ago, pogi said: If you take away porn, it would simply manifest itself in other damaging ways. Making porn illegal is not going to fix anyone - we have much bigger problems in society that government doesn't have the power or capacity to solve. We cannot legislate these core problems (often generational and familial) away, it takes the atonement. The problem is not worst in Kuwait and Macau. Kuwaite and Macau give long prison sentences for those who make pornography. Kuwait and Macau religious and prosperous countries. In what country does the problem get worst after pornography is made illegal? Countries like Greece that have too much pornography in the streets end up collapsing. Edited March 18, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite
mnn727 Posted March 18, 2018 Posted March 18, 2018 You do realize the state of morality in this country in general? A prohibition against porn will never happen. Its a multi-billion dollar industry and every phone is a camera. 2
california boy Posted March 18, 2018 Posted March 18, 2018 1 hour ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Why? You think the church destroys families? Go to Mormon.org and read all the stories of happy families https://www.mormon.org/me/3TKB/RandyDoCDockery The gospel of Jesus Christ unites the family. Pornography does the exact opposite. Mormonism is a blessing to the world. For many that is true. But you can not say that about every marriage. Would you like me to link sites where people testify how the church broke up their families and marriages? 1
pogi Posted March 18, 2018 Author Posted March 18, 2018 5 hours ago, strappinglad said: I can see your point , but someone has to make a decision about where the line is for consent. Is 13 OK but 12 not? What if the parents of a 10 year old give permission for her use as a sex slave ? Parental Consent? Every law has a moral backdrop. It also interferes with the behavior of Somebody and their agency. The parent cannot consent to the sexual abuse of a child - that is a violation of the child's rights. Legally independent adults who have the capacity to consent should be allowed. We have been endowed with unalienable rights, whether these are based in morality or natural law doesn't make a difference. Government can do one of two things, protect those rights, or infringe upon them. That is where law comes into play. The only moral question that should be asked when creating law is this - does it protect our rights, or does it infringe upon them? The constitution does not protect our agency. I don't advocate the protection of free agency without consequence. The constitution protects our rights of life, liberty, and property from the agency of men who seek to defraud, cause harm, or violate person or property. In other words, my liberty ends where your liberty begins.
The Nehor Posted March 18, 2018 Posted March 18, 2018 6 hours ago, Danzo said: They are still trying and doing that in places. Ever hear of a dry county? Ever hear of the bureau of Alcohol Tobbaco and Firearms? Ever hear of state liquor commissions? Government regulation of morals. Its happening everywhere. I now have to support things that I believe are immoral (same sex marriage comes to mind). Dry counties are all over the place but that is not the equivalent of prohibition. Prohibition made it all but impossible to acquire alcohol legally. A dry county or city means you have to drive another ten minutes to buy it and it is still legal to have when you take it home. The ATF's limited alcohol enforcement is to prevent smuggling of liquor into the United States in violation of the law. They basically try to catch people trying to dodge import tariffs. This is not prohibition either. The state liquor commissions largely just regulate where you can sell liquor. They do not make it illegal to possess (except in a few specific areas). YOU CAN'T LEGISLATE MORALITY! Oh right, that is the only basis by which we should legislate. Never mind. You poor thing. Do you own a bakery and a gay couple asked you to make a cake for their wedding? And that qualifies as desecration and forcing you to support a concept? Do you also throw gossips out of your store for their sins? How about liars? Do you refuse to serve Hindus who worship their false gods? Or is same sex marriage the one sin that scripturally requires you to not serve customers? Got a reference for that? 2
pogi Posted March 18, 2018 Author Posted March 18, 2018 5 hours ago, Danzo said: its not that simple. That is real life. Not TV. Not Hollywood. Most prostitution is engaged in by people who are desperate and feel there is no other alternative. Try going in to the neighborhood where the hookers hang out sometime. Talk to them, I have. These are not people who have just decided on whim to do some consensual business transactions. These are people with no hope. People who are desperate, people who are being taken advantage of. What about the wives and the children of the Johns. Did they consent? Did the wife consent to get a venereal disease from her disgusting husband? You seem to live in some fantasy world where extramarital sex, drug and alcohol use, has no consequences for anyone other than the two consenting (maybe?) people involved in the act. What about the child who just got killed by a drunk driver? Did he consent? Or the woman who gets beat to a pulp every time her boyfriend/ husband gets drunk. Why don't you talk to her about what she was consenting to. I think you fundamentally misunderstand where I am coming from and what I am saying. The prostitution you are describing should be illegal. I am not advocating for any person to be "taken advantage of". No, not all prostitutes are desperate slaves to their pimps, there are many high end, very wealthy prostitutes to the rich and powerful. The favorites of the hypocritical politicians. By making prostitution illegal, we protect against STD's through screening, we protect against girls being taken advantage of against their will, and we protect the freedoms afforded us by the constitution instead of encroaching upon them. I have no clue what you are talking about with drunk boyfriends beating up girlfriends, etc. I am not advocating for anarchy here, people are not free to cause bodily harm etc. We do have rights which the government should protect - that is the job of government - to protect rights, NOT restrict them. 1
pogi Posted March 18, 2018 Author Posted March 18, 2018 4 hours ago, Danzo said: I am not sure I recall prostitution being a constitutionally protected right. It is called liberty my friend. It is protected. My liberty is (should be, anyway) protected as far as it does not infringe upon another's life, liberty, or property. 4 hours ago, Danzo said: All law is someone's morals enforced by the state. A law should do nothing more then protect our inalienable rights. The second it enforces any morals beyond those certain unalienable rights, it is an infringement upon another's morals and liberty and an overreach of power. Slippery slope from there.
pogi Posted March 18, 2018 Author Posted March 18, 2018 3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: There are a number of things that are consensual but illegal. Unfortunately true. So long as a consensual act does not violate another's rights, it is an overreach of government to restrict such liberties.
pogi Posted March 18, 2018 Author Posted March 18, 2018 2 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Pornography is highly addictive and it destroys the life of men who view it. Pornography destroys marriages and families. Pornography disrespects women and it is a form of sexual harassment. Imagine someone buying a pornographic magazine and the cashier is a woman, how do you think the cashier would feel? Pornography destroys everything in it's path. The problem is not worst in Kuwait and Macau. Kuwaite and Macau give long prison sentences for those who make pornography. Kuwait and Macau religious and prosperous countries. In what country does the problem get worst after pornography is made illegal? Countries like Greece that have too much pornography in the streets end up collapsing. Viewing porn is sexual harassment? It is all of those other negative things that you say, but it is not harassing anybody when done legally. The cashier is not forced to work at a store which she sells products she is uncomfortable with. That's how free markets work. And you have a healthy understanding of the underground/dark market in Kuwait and Macau? How so?
Danzo Posted March 18, 2018 Posted March 18, 2018 12 minutes ago, pogi said: It is called liberty my friend. It is protected. My liberty is (should be, anyway) protected as far as it does not infringe upon another's life, liberty, or property. A law should do nothing more then protect our inalienable rights. The second it enforces any morals beyond those certain unalienable rights, it is an infringement upon another's morals and liberty and an overreach of power. Slippery slope from there. CFR any court that has ruled prostitution is constitutionally protected activity. I think you are making up your claim of prostitution's constitutional protection.
pogi Posted March 18, 2018 Author Posted March 18, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, Danzo said: Its happening everywhere. I now have to support things that I believe are immoral (same sex marriage comes to mind). What you are supporting (or should be, anyway) is the rights of others to act according to the dictates of their own conscience. Your religious morals have no place in government - that is scriptural: D&C 134: 2 We believe that no government can exist in peace, except such laws are framed and held inviolate as will secure to each individual the free exercise of conscience, the right and control of property, and the protection of life. 4 We believe that religion is instituted of God; and that men are amenable to him, and to him only, for the exercise of it, unless their religious opinions prompt them to infringe upon the rights and liberties of others; 9 We do not believe it just to mingle religious influence with civil government, whereby one religious society is fostered and another proscribed in its spiritual privileges, and the individual rights of its members, as citizens, denied. Edited March 18, 2018 by pogi
pogi Posted March 18, 2018 Author Posted March 18, 2018 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Danzo said: CFR any court that has ruled prostitution is constitutionally protected activity. I think you are making up your claim of prostitution's constitutional protection. I never made a claim that courts have ruled that way, so I don't intend to answer your CFR. Danzo, the prohibition of alcohol was unconstitutional. The government recognized that at the time. That is why they made the 18th amendment to the constitution - to make it constitutional. The 18th amendment didn't last. It is the only amendment to ever be repealed in the constitution. Just like alcohol, the prohibition of any liberty which does not infringe upon another's rights should require an amendment to the constitution. The government is acting outside the constitution with the war on drugs and prostitution etc. There is no amendment for such prohibitions. The constitution is already hanging by a thread. Edited March 18, 2018 by pogi
Bernard Gui Posted March 18, 2018 Posted March 18, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, pogi said: Unfortunately true. So long as a consensual act does not violate another's rights, it is an overreach of government to restrict such liberties. Mercy killing; assisted suicide; mutual suicide; group heroin, meth, cocaine parties, etc. All consensual. Even abortion is deemed consensual because the victim does not have rights. Pornography is not victimless. We’re in a moral morass. Edited March 18, 2018 by Bernard Gui 2
Danzo Posted March 18, 2018 Posted March 18, 2018 33 minutes ago, pogi said: I never made a claim that courts have ruled that way, so I don't intend to answer your CFR. Danzo, the prohibition of alcohol was unconstitutional. The government recognized that at the time. That is why they made the 18th amendment to the constitution - to make it constitutional. The 18th amendment didn't last. It is the only amendment to ever be repealed in the constitution. Just like alcohol, the prohibition of any liberty which does not infringe upon another's rights should require an amendment to the constitution. The government is acting outside the constitution with the war on drugs and prostitution etc. There is no amendment for such prohibitions. The constitution is already hanging by a thread. I don't think that word means what to think it means. Prohibition on a national level required an amendment. Prohibition on a state and local level has always been constitutional, and didn't need a constitutional amendment. There were many dry states before the 18th amendment was passed. Not one of those state's dry laws were ruled unconstitutional. I think when you say constitutional, you really mean something you want to be true really bad. The courts have never ruled that prohibition by a local government was unconstitutional. They have never ruled that laws against prostitution are unconstitutional. You may think these laws are a bad thing but that has nothing to do with whether they are constitutional or not.
Recommended Posts