SamuelTheLamanite Posted March 26, 2018 Posted March 26, 2018 (edited) 10 hours ago, pogi said: No, pornography is not a drug - that should be obvious. It is a behavior that can turn into compulsion and addiction. It is no different from sex in that regard - same neurochemical response. However, some may argue that it is not an addiction at all: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/201307/your-brain-porn-its-not-addictive To me it all depends on why you seek it out. If it becomes a tool to numb/avoid the pain of self-imposed isolation, then it can become an extremely addictive and effective tool of avoidance. If it is not used in such a negative way, then it is no more addictive then sex Okay that is all new to me. I thought pornography was like a highly addictive drug. You tell me "porn, drugs, alcohol, tv, video games, extra marital affairs, perfectionism or its opposite, hyper religiosity or it's opposite, over eating, under eating, obsessive behaviors, control freak, internet forum compulsion ;)abusive behavior, violence, rage, apathy, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc" I thought pornography was far more addictive than things like perfectionism or internet forum compulsion. 20 hours ago, kllindley said: I get the feeling that you didn't read the article. http://www.byui.edu/Documents/counseling-center/Compulsive Behaviors/Compulsive Behaviors.pdf I am asking brother Gui. On 3/21/2018 at 5:49 AM, Bernard Gui said: Great question! Bernard Gui, Pogi and kllindley are saying that pornography isn't the problem. Is that true brother? They gave me a lot of article. Oh I am so confused. I thought pornography was like a drug. Edited March 26, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite
SamuelTheLamanite Posted March 26, 2018 Posted March 26, 2018 (edited) 23 hours ago, pogi said: Any number of harmful coping behaviors (porn, drugs, alcohol, tv, video games, extra marital affairs, perfectionism or its opposite, hyper religiosity or it's opposite, over eating, under eating, obsessive behaviors, control freak, internet forum compulsion abusive behavior, violence, rage, apathy, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.) People may appear to have it all together on the outside, but it may be a front, a mask, a wall. Brother Pogi, Why don't we have addiction recovery groups for internet forum addicts? or hyper religious addicts? or perfectionism addicts? 20 hours ago, kllindley said: I get the feeling that you didn't read the article. I am reading, but as I asked above why don't we have other addiction recovery groups for many things? Edited March 26, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite
kllindley Posted March 26, 2018 Posted March 26, 2018 9 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Brother Pogi, Why don't we have addiction recovery groups for internet forum addicts? or hyper religious addicts? or perfectionism addicts? I am reading, but as I asked above why don't we have other addiction recovery groups for many things? Actually, the Church's "Addiction Recovery Program" is for all addictions. Some are drugs (physical substances), some are sexual behaviors (including but not limited to viewing pornography and masturbating), others may include behaviors like gambling, eating disorders, video gaming. Individuals with all these manifestations of Addiction are invited to attend ARP meetings. Pornography is images, words, and video. It is not a drug. A drug is a chemical substance. Sometimes people compare pornography to a drug, but this is a metaphor. Again, I believe pornography is bad. One would do well to avoid it. Our children can and need to be taught to avoid it. But they will be exposed. If it was actually a drug this would be the same as 11 year olds getting injections of meth or cocaine "by accident" or "out of curiosity." But with pornography, most of these youth are able to avoid becoming ensnared in addiction. This would be impissible with a drug. We are best served by teaching our children to become pornography resilient. We do this by reducing shame, increasing testimony and understanding of the atonement, teaching positive coping strategies, and promoting healthy, close relationships. 3
SamuelTheLamanite Posted March 26, 2018 Posted March 26, 2018 (edited) 56 minutes ago, kllindley said: Again, I believe pornography is bad. One would do well to avoid it. Our children can and need to be taught to avoid it. But they will be exposed. If it was actually a drug this would be the same as 11 year olds getting injections of meth or cocaine "by accident" or "out of curiosity." But with pornography, most of these youth are able to avoid becoming ensnared in addiction. This would be impissible with a drug. We are best served by teaching our children to become pornography resilient. We do this by reducing shame, increasing testimony and understanding of the atonement, teaching positive coping strategies, and promoting healthy, close relationships. What you are saying is making a lot of sense brother kllindley, but Idaho lawmakers just declared pornography "a public health risk". https://www.ksl.com/index.php?sid=46272417&nid=1419&title=idaho-lawmakers-declare-pornography-a-public-health-risk If pornography isn't highly addictive, then why is it so destructive to the family? Families don't get destroyed by "perfectionism or its opposite, hyper religiosity or it's opposite, over eating, under eating, obsessive behaviors, control freak, internet forum compulsion" Isn't porn much worst than " gambling, eating disorders, video gaming"? I don't see the prophets constantly warning us about "gambling, eating disorders, video gaming". Our apostle Elder Oaks taught, "Pornography is also addictive. It impairs decision-making capacities and it “hooks” its users, drawing them back obsessively for more and more. A man who had been addicted to pornography and to hard drugs wrote me this comparison: “In my eyes cocaine doesn’t hold a candle to this. I have done both. … Quitting even the hardest drugs was nothing compared to [trying to quit pornography]”" For our apostle pornography can be so much worst than cocaine. Edited March 26, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite
Bernard Gui Posted March 26, 2018 Posted March 26, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Okay that is all new to me. I thought pornography was like a highly addictive drug. You tell me "porn, drugs, alcohol, tv, video games, extra marital affairs, perfectionism or its opposite, hyper religiosity or it's opposite, over eating, under eating, obsessive behaviors, control freak, internet forum compulsion ;)abusive behavior, violence, rage, apathy, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc" I thought pornography was far more addictive than things like perfectionism or internet forum compulsion. I am asking brother Gui. Bernard Gui, Pogi and kllindley are saying that pornography isn't the problem. Is that true brother? They gave me a lot of article. Oh I am so confused. I thought pornography was like a drug. The jury is still out on whether or not pornography is addictive in the same sense as substance addiction. One can find adamant experts and convincing studies to support whichever side one wishes. So much for experts and studies. For my money, it certainly can be. I’ve seen the ways it can destroy the users and the ones they love. The test is quite simple. If one thinks it is not addictive, then go 90 days without it. If one can do that, then why not just quit and let it go. It has no value anyway. If one cannot leave it alone, then there is a dependency problem. Furthermore, anything that one does that consumes time, energy, and resources and puts self-respect, job, family, and normal relationships with others in jeopardy is not good. Porn use has the potential to do all that, so why pointlessly bicker about its addictiveness? It has no redeeming value. It enriches evil and conspiring men and demeans and objectifies men and women. Why would any rational person defend that? Some good questions to ask oneself...why am I looking at this stuff? Do I want to be doing this five years from now? Is watching porn more important to me than anything else? What am I willing to sacrifice so that I can keep watching it? Check out this excellent resource the LDS Family Services provides... https://addictionrecovery.lds.org/videos?lang=eng&v=MTA3MzgwNDcyNDI0MTkyODM1NDEtZW5n&prefs= Edited March 26, 2018 by Bernard Gui 2
california boy Posted March 26, 2018 Posted March 26, 2018 I think it is important to remember that the vast number of people who view porn do not become addicted to it. As fun as it is to demonize porn, Let’s keep a proper perspective on this issue
Meerkat Posted March 26, 2018 Posted March 26, 2018 (edited) Samuel the Lamanite, I appreciate your persistence. There is research to back up your feelings, just as there is opposing research. It isn't settled science. Pogi may be right regarding toxic shame and possibly hyper religiosity contributing to addiction-like behavior. But there may be more to it than poor self image, or shame. This disclaimer at the end of the Psychology Today article, "Your Brain on Porn - It's NOT Addictive," that Pogi referred to illustrates a potential problem with his reasoning: "*Note - this article was previously published in March 2013, prior to the formal publication of the research. It was removed due to controversy related to another PT blogger. As the research article is now formally available, this blog article is being republished." Apparently they will publish anything as long as the research article is formally available. Hence, articles on all sides. There is ample conflicting research on all sides of this issue. Families that are impacted by it know how damaging it IS to the habitual viewer (whether addicted or shamed,) and to the family who loves them, until they have been treated so poorly they draw a circle that shuts the addict out, until they get help. I shared my testimony on this thread how our family was devastated. Here is one response to Pogi's PT article that corresponds with our family experience. (I put this in the category of "Out of the mouth of two or more witnesses."): "...I have a husband who is addicted to porn; admitted it to me years ago. He has tried to stop time after time but just can't seem to do it. He told me he has been at it since he was 16 years old. I wouldn't have gotten that much out of him about it had I not found the stash of porn hidden in the basement. Now, he's on the computer. HIS OWN. So he never brings it home anymore. It's horrible. And there are so many kinds of porn, I had no idea. For any idiot to say it is not an addiction is like saying people who can't stop snorting cocaine is not an addict!" That is also the reality I have seen with two loved ones and their spouses and several others in family support and therapy. Pogi, and those good people who share his opinion, refer to their own experience and professional articles such as those in PT "Your Brain on Porn-- it's NOT addictive." Our therapist has an insurance code that pays for pornography and sex addiction. She doubts they would pay, if there was evidence that would allow them not to pay. My objection to Pogi's argument is that it focuses on giving sympathy and TLC to the habitual viewer (I say habitual viewer because some don't like the term addict,) but ignores the plight of the raped, the objectified, the deceived spouses, the single parents, the children without fathers in the home, the estranged families and friends and other collateral damage that is sweeping the internet and all our communities like the plague. What about THEM??? I believe those numbers are much higher than the habitual viewers. Do you think states, like Utah, that are trying to legislate against pornography as a public health and safety issue are doing so in a vacuum? Or do they have constituents who are demanding action because their families are being destroyed. Here is a list of states that have taken such action so far: Arkansas, South Dakota, Tennessee, Utah, and Virginia. And why is the Church doing all it can do in general conference, the Ensign, websites and family support groups to stem the tidal wave of pornography attacking our members? My point is Pornography is not just damaging to the addict. The greater damage is to the young women brought into it, the pimps and producers, the destroyed families, the unrealistic expectations it creates in the minds of the viewers, etc., in my opinion. So YES, let us train families who are not so embarrassed that they won't attend family support-- train them to love the addict, and how to talk with them, support them, avoid shaming language or behavior, extend the love of Christ that is just waiting and wanting to be shared by all. AND get politically involved to encourage our legislatures to push back the darkness. Edited March 26, 2018 by Meerkat 2
pogi Posted March 26, 2018 Author Posted March 26, 2018 (edited) 10 hours ago, Meerkat said: Pogi may be right regarding toxic shame and possibly hyper religiosity contributing to addiction-like behavior. But there may be more to it than poor self image, or shame. This disclaimer at the end of the Psychology Today article, "Your Brain on Porn - It's NOT Addictive," that Pogi referred to illustrates a potential problem with his reasoning: Just to make it clear, I am not saying that porn is not addictive. I hope that didn't cause any confusion by posting that article. I explained my position in the paragraph following the link. I have made it abundantly clear throughout this discussion that it can be highly addictive. I have also made it clear that I know better then most as to the reality of this addiction as I have personal experience it to the point that it almost destroyed my life. I am simply stating that "acting out" is a behavioral addiction like sex, video gaming, etc., which is different in some respects to drug addictions. And yes, there is more to the story then toxic shame at play here. That is the root cause and source of the addiction, but after years of acting out, similar changes to neural pathways in the brain that wee see in drug addiction can be seen in behavior or "process" addictions as well. So, not only does one have to heal from toxic shame, but they also have to literally rewire their brain to choose more healthy coping strategies. About hyper religiosity, I am not arguing that it contributes to addiction like behavior, I am arguing that it can be a manifestation of addiction like behavior is some. It can simply be another mask for some, like bro Bishop. 10 hours ago, Meerkat said: My objection to Pogi's argument is that it focuses on giving sympathy and TLC to the habitual viewer (I say habitual viewer because some don't like the term addict,) but ignores the plight of the raped, the objectified, the deceived spouses, the single parents, the children without fathers in the home, the estranged families and friends and other collateral damage that is sweeping the internet and all our communities like the plague. What about THEM??? I believe those numbers are much higher than the habitual viewers. God bless you Meerkat and your family for what you have been through. I know that I have put my family through hell, so I can imagine what you and your loved ones have been through. This is a plague, no doubt about it. This addiction destroys families, and porn itself is objectionable for many of the other reasons that you mention. One reason that porn is so devastating on spouses is because it feels to them like a betrayal. It feels like infidelity. They often start asking themselves, "Am I not pretty enough? Am I not good enough, etc?" "Why is my spouse cheating on me for this filth?" "If he really loved me, then he would stop. He must not love me" This is so tragic. It can be absolutely soul crushing for the spouse. My own marriage hung by a tiny little thread. I know how damaging it is. It is a tragic disease that effects everyone involved. Spouses NEED support. They need to be heard, validated, and understood. They need healing. A proper support group will help the spouse understand that addiction is not about them. The addict is not acting out because the spouse is not beautiful enough etc. It will also help them through some codependency issues that the spouse may have. Where there is an addict, there is usually a codependent nearby. Perhaps I am a bit misunderstood. I am in no way dismissing the negative behaviors of the addict on their loved ones. Addicts absolutely need to take accountability for their actions and seek restitution and reconciliation (step 9), otherwise true recovery cannot be possible. Addiction doesn't just affect the addicted individual, it affects entire families. Every individual involved needs support and healing. It is a long journey for all involved. Without a supportive environment in non-judgment, the addict cannot heal and will never find recovery. This is because recovery = true intimacy (not physical), which requires emotional vulnerability. If the addict does not feel safe to open up, they will remain in isolation and addiction. This is critical to understand. I fully recognize that the spouse and family who have been negatively impacted may not be in a place to offer that support quite yet. They have their own issues to deal with without taking on the addicts issues. It is probably best to rely on a support group and/or professional therapist/counselor for that starting out. Everybody involved needs support and understanding through this processes. It will get to the point where open communication needs to happen within the family unit as well, but that might need to wait until both parties build a secure foundation first by working on themselves. The addict needs to feel free to be open and honest about his experiences in addiction, his family history with dysfunctional communication that may have contributed to the toxic shame and isolation, traumatic events that may have contributed to the addiction as well, etc. etc. etc. Without core issues that fuel addiction, porn is powerless. It may become a bad habit for some to repent of, but it will not evolve into an addiction. That is the only point that I am making - that porn is a symptom of a much more , I think even Bernard can agree with that. This fact is frequently talked about in ARP recovery groups. 10 hours ago, Meerkat said: Do you think states, like Utah, that are trying to legislate against pornography as a public health and safety issue are doing so in a vacuum? Or do they have constituents who are demanding action because their families are being destroyed. Here is a list of states that have taken such action so far: Arkansas, South Dakota, Tennessee, Utah, and Virginia. And why is the Church doing all it can do in general conference, the Ensign, websites and family support groups to stem the tidal wave of pornography attacking our members? Yes families are being destroyed by addiction. Yes, action can be taken to give families tools to protect against it, but an all out prohibition is a misguided attack. It shows a complete misunderstanding of the problem and the process of recovery. A successful ban will not save marriages. It just wont. If it is not porn destroying the family, it will be something else taking its place. It is my hope that behavioral addiction becomes better understood in society so that we can more effectively heal our communities. Edited March 26, 2018 by pogi 4
pogi Posted March 26, 2018 Author Posted March 26, 2018 16 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Okay that is all new to me. I thought pornography was like a highly addictive drug. You tell me "porn, drugs, alcohol, tv, video games, extra marital affairs, perfectionism or its opposite, hyper religiosity or it's opposite, over eating, under eating, obsessive behaviors, control freak, internet forum compulsion ;)abusive behavior, violence, rage, apathy, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc" I thought pornography was far more addictive than things like perfectionism or internet forum compulsion. The behavior only becomes addictive given pre-existing conditions. In and of itself, it is like food or sex which are not addictive, but can become so given pre-existing conditions. Pornography is just one of many potential manifestations. Most addicts have more then one. What makes it a popular choice is that it serves two purposes for the addict. 1) Like other behavioral addictions, it can effectively numb emotions - a good hiding place, while simultaneously soothing common triggers like boredom and stress. 2) It acts as a form of escape from isolation. Keep in mind that the addict is in isolation feeling unknown, lonely (even surrounded by friends and family), unlovable, unworthy of attention and acceptance. They are in hiding because they are sure that they would be rejected if their true self was discovered. Numbness becomes more tolerable then exposure and rejection. Though the addict works hard to enforce the isolation by building a wall around his heart, deep down he wants nothing more than to be accepted and loved for who he is - but it is just too risky. This is where fantasy comes in handy. Porn accepts you just as you are. There is no rejection. It is safe place to go when you want to feel loved and accepted. While other behavioral addictions can offer numbness, isolation, and release, they lack the pseudo intimacy that addicts crave and that porn offers. Let me make this very clear. Porn addicts are not hyper-sexual perverts. It is not about that at all! It is about an inner child who wants to feel loved and accepted but is too afraid to be vulnerable due to past traumatic experiences leading to a state of chronic shame, so they turn to a place of safety and numbness. Most addicts in recovery HATE porn. They HATE how it hurts their spouses. They HATE how it objectifies women. They HATE to live in sin. They HATE everything about it, yet they can't understand why they keep turning to it even as they are repulsed by it. "What the f*** is wrong with me!!!" "Is something that constantly went through my head. "I am pushing away the people that I love the most, my wife is on the verge of leaving me. I am in darkness and despair. I know that it is evil and I want to stop more than anything else. God knows that I want to stop..but I can't." That is the state of the addict in the beginning stages of recovery (post denial). I blamed pornography for so many years. I battled it. I hated it. I was able to successfully "white-knuckle" it for 2 years...yes, 2 years! But I was still an addict. Sobriety is not recovery. I started manifesting other negative behaviors and coping mechanisms, until I eventually relapsed. I lost it! I lost all hope! I surrendered to the addiction for a long time. It wasn't until the Lord taught me about some of the things I am talking about in this thread, that I was able redirect the battle away from porn, and begin the work of true recovery through honest vulnerability and intimacy - the most terrifying thing in the world to me!!! Prohibition may take the porn from the addict (which it actually wont, they will just turn to the dark net), but it cannot take the addict from the addict. It will not fix the problems that families face. In order to defeat your enemy, you first have to understand it. 4
Meerkat Posted March 26, 2018 Posted March 26, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, pogi said: Perhaps I am a bit misunderstood. I am in no way dismissing the negative behaviors of the addict on their loved ones. Addicts absolutely need to take accountability for their actions and seek restitution and reconciliation (step 9), otherwise true recovery cannot be possible. Addiction doesn't just affect the addicted individual, it affects entire families. Every individual involved needs support and healing. It is a long journey for all involved. I loved your post, and agree with the whole thing. And thanks for the blessing. I don't believe it's realistic to prohibit pornography. But it is realistic to restrict it somewhat. Anything to slow it down. The problem I have with focusing on taking care of the addict and therapy / 12 step for the families is that probably 90 percent or more of affected families are too embarrassed or proud to participate in the help available. So they suffer in silence, without the tools to help themselves and certainly unable to help their loved ones, piling shame upon shame. Thus the problem outruns the cure. Maybe you mentioned a solution and I misssed it. I've been off the site for awhile. I'll look back through it. Your solution in the most recent post appears highly individualized, and requires extraordinary humility to work-- a real challenge for many addicts. Edited March 26, 2018 by Meerkat 1
pogi Posted March 26, 2018 Author Posted March 26, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Meerkat said: I loved your post, and agree with the whole thing. And thanks for the blessing. I don't believe it's realistic to prohibit pornography. But it is realistic to restrict it somewhat. Anything to slow it down. The problem I have with focusing on taking care of the addict and therapy / 12 step for the families is that probably 90 percent or more of affected families are too embarrassed or proud to participate in the help available. So they suffer in silence, without the tools to help themselves and certainly unable to help their loved ones, piling shame upon shame. Thus the problem outruns the cure. Maybe you mentioned a solution and I misssed it. I've been off the site for awhile. I'll look back through it. Your solution in the most recent post appears highly individualized, and requires extraordinary humility to work-- a real challenge for many addicts. It is an unfortunate reality that the addict cannot be forced into recovery, or that some families are too embarrassed or proud to seek the support they need to make the marriage work. For some, their pride will be the trail to rock bottom, before humility smacks them in the face making recovery possible. That is the choice that people have to make (both the addict and the spouse) - is my pride worth more than my marriage? If a spouse is too prideful and embarrassed to work on herself and her marriage, then she too has some accountability. It is the addict who is often expected to face their pride, embarrassment, and deepest fears - despite the fact that they are the ones who are diseased and addicted (powerless). If the spouse finds it too difficult to face their pride and embarrassment, how can they expect their addicted husband to do the same? That is a telltale sign of codependency - "you need to make me happy again". The burden of saving the marriage should not rest solely on the shoulders of the addict. More often then not, where there is an addict there is also a codependent spouse who also has some accountability for the dysfunctional marriage dynamics. The problem is usually much larger then porn. But too often that is what we all like to blame, unwilling to go deep and look within to reveal more systemic problems. If my wife was not willing to make sacrifices herself to make this marriage work, my marriage would have failed. She could have chosen to remain bitterly angry and resentful of me, accusing me of infidelity etc. but instead she chose to seek out help despite the embarrassment of it all. Without that support for my wife, my marriage would have failed. As she learned more about the nature of addiction, her anger softened and she became more empathetic. This allowed me to feel more safe to open up to her. As I shared with her my history leading up to the addiction, her heart melted. I felt deeply loved and accepted for who I was for the first time in my life. This was the beginning of serious change. This could not have happened if I was the only one working on our marriage. For a marriage to work, it takes two. She also began to recognize signs of codependency in herself. Over many years our communication and dynamics have improved significantly. But if my wife simply expected me to fix the problem, our marriage would have failed - and she would have been partly accountable for that. I am only mentioning my wife's role here, but I too played a significant role. It takes two. Thank God both of us were willing to face our fears and deepest demons to save our marriage. What is the solution to break down the barriers of embarrassment and pride in seeking recovery and support? 1) We need to remove the stigma of porn addiction. The church is starting to understand the nature of addiction and is beginning to soften its shameful language towards users. That is why I speak so openly and freely about my addiction - to remove the stigma. We are not hyper-sexual perverts. We need not be afraid or embarrassed to speak about it, to keep it under the covers, to lock it behind doors - that is where addiction thrives! 2) Related to number 1, we need to develop a culture of openness and understanding of behavioral addiction in general. As evidenced by this thread, there is a culture of misunderstanding that needs to change before any significant change can happen. 3) We need to understand who/what the real enemy is we should be fighting. Instead of investing our efforts, money, time, and energy in fighting porn, we would do better to invest it in educating the public about the true nature of porn addiction and resources in recovery for both the addict and the spouse. That that would be a better use of our energies. That will save more marriages then attacking porn. Edited March 26, 2018 by pogi 3
SamuelTheLamanite Posted March 27, 2018 Posted March 27, 2018 20 hours ago, california boy said: I think it is important to remember that the vast number of people who view porn do not become addicted to it. As fun as it is to demonize porn, Let’s keep a proper perspective on this issue We need a reference. Pornography is bad because it destroys families. Four in ten men are addicted to pornography.
pogi Posted March 27, 2018 Author Posted March 27, 2018 11 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: We need a reference. Pornography is bad because it destroys families. Four in ten men are addicted to pornography. Are you seriously stating that 4/10 men are addicted to porn (without a reference BTW) and simultaneously asking for a reference to the claim that the majority of men are not addicted to porn? If (big “if” since porn is not even recognized as an addiction in the DSM-5) 6/10 men are not addicted, that is a majority. Just to be clear, I think porn addiction should be included in the DSM-5, but I am questioning any claims to prevelance. How could that be tracked without an official diagnosis? 1
kllindley Posted March 27, 2018 Posted March 27, 2018 5 hours ago, pogi said: The burden of saving the marriage should not rest solely on the shoulders of the addict. More often then not, where there is an addict there is also a codependent spouse who also has some accountability for the dysfunctional marriage dynamics. The problem is usually much larger then porn. But too often that is what we all like to blame, unwilling to go deep and look within to reveal more systemic problems. If my wife was not willing to make sacrifices herself to make this marriage work, my marriage would have failed. She could have chosen to remain bitterly angry and resentful of me, accusing me of infidelity etc. but instead she chose to seek out help despite the embarrassment of it all. Without that support for my wife, my marriage would have failed. As she learned more about the nature of addiction, her anger softened and she became more empathetic. This allowed me to feel more safe to open up to her. As I shared with her my history leading up to the addiction, her heart melted. I felt deeply loved and accepted for who I was for the first time in my life. This was the beginning of serious change. This could not have happened if I was the only one working on our marriage. For a marriage to work, it takes two. She also began to recognize signs of codependency in herself. Over many years our communication and dynamics have improved significantly. But if my wife simply expected me to fix the problem, our marriage would have failed - and she would have been partly accountable for that. I am only mentioning my wife's role here, but I too played a significant role. It takes two. Thank God both of us were willing to face our fears and deepest demons to save our marriage. This is bold and lots of people are not going to like you saying it, but it's the truth. Addiction doesn't happen in a vacuum. 1
Calm Posted March 27, 2018 Posted March 27, 2018 (edited) 21 minutes ago, kllindley said: This is bold and lots of people are not going to like you saying it, but it's the truth. Addiction doesn't happen in a vacuum. The reverse needs to be said as well since in the past it has not been unusual for women to be told if they tried harder to be physically appealing (lose weight, use makeup more, seduce your husband, etc) or emotionally available, their husband wouldn't be resorting to porn. Any marriage, even those without porn, requires both partners to be putting a huge amount of effort into it to be healthy, though it doesn't have to always be perfectly equal...in fact it may never be equal because one can't do as much, the other however needs to know that one is attempting to put as much as they are able. If there is a feeling of holding back, not investing fully because of not being fully committed, it can be harder to feel valued as an individual. Edited March 27, 2018 by Calm 2
california boy Posted March 27, 2018 Posted March 27, 2018 3 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: We need a reference. Pornography is bad because it destroys families. Four in ten men are addicted to pornography. Are 4 in 10 families destroyed by photography? Your “facts” don’t really match reality.
Meerkat Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 On 3/20/2018 at 10:49 PM, Bernard Gui said: Support politicians and leaders who recognize the danger and propose reasoned solutions. Encourage Church leaders to address the issue as needed. Complain to media and advertisers when their content crosses the line. Do not patronize businesses, entertainment, or websites that promote promiscuity or disseminate pornography. Use parental blocks on all internet and cable devices with strong password protections. Do not let kids have electronic devices including and especially anything with screens in their bedrooms. Monitor music on radios and iPods. Check viewing content history for porn sites. Monitor and limit screen time. Do not use screens as babysitters or pacifiers. No computers, tablets, or phones allowed in private unsupervised rooms.....keep them in lighted, inside-windowed, and well-trafficked áreas. If kids have phones, put undefeatable content locks on them. Lock them up before bedtime. If they get caught using them in school, back up the teacher or principal. No sleepovers at friends’ or relatives’ homes. No going into a friend’s home if there are no parents there. Know who their friends and their friend’s parents are. Talk with the parents. Strict curfews for teens. Talk with children and discuss what to do so they can plan ahead for a proper reaction when they are inevitably exposed to pornography. Warn them of the dangers involved. Stress respect for self and others. Don’t underplay the negative effects or porn and promiscuity. But don’t instill fear and self-loathing. If a family member admits to or gets caught using porn, don’t panic, don’t use anger or shame, don’t trot them off to the bishop unless they want to talk with him for guidance and feel comfortable doing that, immediately take away the offending device or materials, have regular check-ups for continuing problems, don’t let them isolate themselves. Find good activities that will keep them engaged and busy with other good kids and adults. If your measures fail and it becomes habitual or addictive, seek professional help and stay strong. If their usage messes you up, seek support. Pray like crazy and be vigilant like an Asian tiger mom. If all this fails, try the Alma/Corianton interview and follow up with increased love. Hope for the best, but teach the true principles of repentance and the Atonement for the times when they will probably need them. The Atonement covers this.Then hope they gained wisdom from you and can govern themselves when they leave your influence. That is a great list, Bro. Gui. For active members of the Church, you may find a welcome audience for those suggestions. I think if the indiuvidual is motivated, they will find ways around those safeguards. One of my addicted loved ones committed to not viewing. I allowed him to have a computer in his room for schoolwork, as long as it wasn't connected to the internet. While we were gone, he ran a hidden cable through the attic into his closet to hardwire his computer. We didn't discover it until two years after he moved out. So I would add two things to your list, if it were me: If you only have time or energy to apply two or three suggestions, pray for guidance to the ones with the best chance of helping. Secondly, find a way to allow for some agency. The harder we acted to protect them, the more they ran to it. The more creative they became in their dishonesty. Our strict approach didn't work very well. 3
Meerkat Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 On 3/25/2018 at 9:22 PM, SamuelTheLamanite said: Families don't get destroyed by "perfectionism or its opposite, hyper religiosity or it's opposite, I'm not sure if that is accurate. Four years into our adventure with two porn addicted sons, years of estrangement imposed by them, I had a chance to have a heart to heart with one of them. He said "When I came to you and asked if you had ever struggled with difficult things, you told me Christ had forgiven your sins, whatever they were. The slate was clean. They were gone and you saw no need to discuss them." My wife and I joined the Church together. Jesus came into our lives in a deeply personal and powerful way. We loved our lives in the Church. We never looked back. I never told them my life had hit a low point. In desperation, I called out to God. He came into my life and forgave me, lifting my depression and giving me a new life. In other words, I wasn't the perfect person I tried to portray to my children all those years. I was a sinner, and Jesus changed everything for me. Had I explained that to them earlier, more openly and direct than my feeble metaphors, my boys may have found the hope they are still seeking. They did let me know they didn't feel they could come to me because I wouldn't understand. That was a mistake on my part. Or maybe it was an excuse on their part. I tend to believe them when they tell me their reality was that our perfectionism and hyper religiosity contributed to their addictions. We weren't down to earth enough and forthcoming to their questions. On 3/26/2018 at 10:33 AM, pogi said: Without a supportive environment in non-judgment, the addict cannot heal and will never find recovery. Yes, I have found that since we have been open and reasonably transparent with them, we are communicating more and they are expressing desires to change for the better. We shall see. Hope springs eternal, and prayers appear to be slowly bringing positive results. My point on this thread is the problem is pervasive. People are unable or unwilling to accept help that is available, or get past their pride and open up. We need legislative help to slow the spread of it. But for us on this thread, there is much we can do to improve relationships. That's my two cents. 4
Calm Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 (edited) On 2018-03-25 at 10:22 PM, SamuelTheLamanite said: Families don't get destroyed by "perfectionism or its opposite, hyper religiosity or it's opposite, over eating, under eating, obsessive behaviors, control freak, internet forum compulsion" Isn't porn much worst than " gambling, eating disorders, video gaming"? I don't see the prophets constantly warning us about "gambling, eating disorders, video gaming".. Your argument really falls apart when you dont have a clue about what you are talking or pretend you are clueless. Do a little research before you go off on one of your lectures. At least try to be inform before speaking. You ever heard of Karen Carpenter, she died of the consequences of undereating, couple of girls in my high school almost killed themselves trying to get 'skinny' by 'purging'. Another word for compulsion for overeating is morbid obesity, you can't even donate your body to science at that point, perfectionism...never heard of a kid killing themselves because they didn't get the grades they needed to get in the college they wanted? not as bad over here, but in Asian. Leading cause of death for children in Japanis suicide: "The main reasons for child suicide are school-related issues such as demanding school work or bullying. These problems lead children to depression. Kenzo Denda, a professor at Hokkaido University, reports that in Japan 1 in 12 primary school students and 1 in 4 secondary school students suffer from depression, which causes many of them to commit suicide (Lu, 2015). We see a spike in suicides in September when children go back to school after the summer holidays; Japanese children are actually more likely to kill themselves on 1st September than on any other day. The spike in suicides repeats in April when students go back to school to start a new academic year (Oi, 2015). School-related issues and the children inclination to suicide are actually part of Japanese culture." https://www.humanium.org/en/child-suicide-in-japan-the-leading-cause-of-death-in-children/ https://nypost.com/2000/02/17/kid-kills-himself-over-bad-grades/ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Carpenter http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5092149/Morrisons-manager-hanged-gambling-addiction.html Edited March 29, 2018 by Calm 4
kllindley Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 11 hours ago, Meerkat said: So I would add two things to your list, if it were me: If you only have time or energy to apply two or three suggestions, pray for guidance to the ones with the best chance of helping. Secondly, find a way to allow for some agency. The harder we acted to protect them, the more they ran to it. The more creative they became in their dishonesty. Our strict approach didn't work very well. Thanks you for sharing this. I think what you have shared here is exactly what pogi and I were trying to say. I'm sorry it didn't come across more clearly. I am afraid that the strict approach on a national or even State level will result in higher levels of dishonest, unhealthy behaviors. That's why I'm so skeptical of prohibition. But I definitely support working to decrease or limit access to porn, especially to minors or other unwanted situations. It would be something one has to seek out and consent to view. 2
kllindley Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 10 hours ago, Calm said: Your argument really falls apart when you dont have a clue about what you are talking or pretend you are clueless. Do a little research before you go off on one of your lectures. At least try to be inform before speaking. You ever heard of Karen Carpenter, she died of the consequences of undereating, couple of girls in my high school almost killed themselves trying to get 'skinny' by 'purging'. Another word for compulsion for overeating is morbid obesity, you can't even donate your body to science at that point, perfectionism...never heard of a kid killing themselves because they didn't get the grades they needed to get in the college they wanted? not as bad over here, but in Asian. Leading cause of death for children in Japanis suicide: "The main reasons for child suicide are school-related issues such as demanding school work or bullying. These problems lead children to depression. Kenzo Denda, a professor at Hokkaido University, reports that in Japan 1 in 12 primary school students and 1 in 4 secondary school students suffer from depression, which causes many of them to commit suicide (Lu, 2015). We see a spike in suicides in September when children go back to school after the summer holidays; Japanese children are actually more likely to kill themselves on 1st September than on any other day. The spike in suicides repeats in April when students go back to school to start a new academic year (Oi, 2015). School-related issues and the children inclination to suicide are actually part of Japanese culture." https://www.humanium.org/en/child-suicide-in-japan-the-leading-cause-of-death-in-children/ https://nypost.com/2000/02/17/kid-kills-himself-over-bad-grades/ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Carpenter http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5092149/Morrisons-manager-hanged-gambling-addiction.html Thanks, Calm. This is a good look at how real and destructive shame and isolation can be.
kllindley Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 10 hours ago, Meerkat said: I'm not sure if that is accurate. Four years into our adventure with two porn addicted sons, years of estrangement imposed by them, I had a chance to have a heart to heart with one of them. He said "When I came to you and asked if you had ever struggled with difficult things, you told me Christ had forgiven your sins, whatever they were. The slate was clean. They were gone and you saw no need to discuss them." My wife and I joined the Church together. Jesus came into our lives in a deeply personal and powerful way. We loved our lives in the Church. We never looked back. I never told them my life had hit a low point. In desperation, I called out to God. He came into my life and forgave me, lifting my depression and giving me a new life. In other words, I wasn't the perfect person I tried to portray to my children all those years. I was a sinner, and Jesus changed everything for me. Had I explained that to them earlier, more openly and direct than my feeble metaphors, my boys may have found the hope they are still seeking. They did let me know they didn't feel they could come to me because I wouldn't understand. That was a mistake on my part. Or maybe it was an excuse on their part. I tend to believe them when they tell me their reality was that our perfectionism and hyper religiosity contributed to their addictions. We weren't down to earth enough and forthcoming to their questions. Yes, I have found that since we have been open and reasonably transparent with them, we are communicating more and they are expressing desires to change for the better. We shall see. Hope springs eternal, and prayers appear to be slowly bringing positive results. My point on this thread is the problem is pervasive. People are unable or unwilling to accept help that is available, or get past their pride and open up. We need legislative help to slow the spread of it. But for us on this thread, there is much we can do to improve relationships. That's my two cents. Thank you for sharing this. Your children are lucky. It takes a lot of vulnerability, not only here, but with your children and I greatly respect that. 2
SamuelTheLamanite Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 10 hours ago, Calm said: Your argument really falls apart when you dont have a clue about what you are talking or pretend you are clueless. Do a little research before you go off on one of your lectures. At least try to be inform before speaking. You ever heard of Karen Carpenter, she died of the consequences of undereating, couple of girls in my high school almost killed themselves trying to get 'skinny' by 'purging'. Another word for compulsion for overeating is morbid obesity, you can't even donate your body to science at that point, perfectionism...never heard of a kid killing themselves because they didn't get the grades they needed to get in the college they wanted? not as bad over here, but in Asian. Leading cause of death for children in Japanis suicide: https://www.humanium.org/en/child-suicide-in-japan-the-leading-cause-of-death-in-children/ https://nypost.com/2000/02/17/kid-kills-himself-over-bad-grades/ Pogi included " Any number of harmful coping behaviors (porn, drugs, alcohol, tv, video games, extra marital affairs, perfectionism or its opposite, hyper religiosity or it's opposite, over eating, under eating, obsessive behaviors, control freak, internet forum compulsion abusive behavior," I retract. Under eating and perfectionism are harmful behaviors. But tv, video games, hyper religiosity, and internet forums don't destroy families. You can't compare watching a lot of TV with pornography. Watching a lot of TV can be a problem, but pornography is a very serious destructive evil. 11 hours ago, Meerkat said: Yes, I have found that since we have been open and reasonably transparent with them, we are communicating more and they are expressing desires to change for the better. We shall see. Hope springs eternal, and prayers appear to be slowly bringing positive results. My point on this thread is the problem is pervasive. People are unable or unwilling to accept help that is available, or get past their pride and open up. We need legislative help to slow the spread of it. But for us on this thread, there is much we can do to improve relationships. That's my two cents. Keep helping them with the gospel. Keep praying for them.
Meerkat Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Keep helping them with the gospel. Keep praying for them. Thank you Samuel. If I could give you a rep for that comment, I would. Prayer seems to be one of the best things for us and for them. That, and "suffering long with kindness.." I really need to thank God that we are the beneficiaries of what they are going through. We are learning lessons that I don't know if we could have learned in any other way-- important lessons for us. Do I wish they didn't have to suffer through this? Of course. I hope they are getting as much out of the experience as we are. I hope it works out for the best for all of us. That's what I am couning on. Edited March 29, 2018 by Meerkat
pogi Posted March 29, 2018 Author Posted March 29, 2018 4 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Pogi included " Any number of harmful coping behaviors (porn, drugs, alcohol, tv, video games, extra marital affairs, perfectionism or its opposite, hyper religiosity or it's opposite, over eating, under eating, obsessive behaviors, control freak, internet forum compulsion abusive behavior," I retract. Under eating and perfectionism are harmful behaviors. But tv, video games, hyper religiosity, and internet forums don't destroy families. You can't compare watching a lot of TV with pornography. Watching a lot of TV can be a problem, but pornography is a very serious destructive evil. The thing that you have to understand Sam, is that these are all tools of hiding and isolation. When toxic shame is the underlying drive, they absolutely will destroy families because no true intimacy is possible - people instead turn to these unhealthy coping mechanisms. Emotional and spiritual well-being is not possible in that state - families cannot spiritually survive in such a state. Do you have any idea about how many marriages have ended due to compulsion/addiction with any of these? They can be terribly destructive. True intimacy (not physical necessarily) is critical to spiritually/emotionally healthy family. The opposite (which all of these things can lead to - isolation) is destructive to the family unit. https://www.cnn.com/2015/01/19/world/taiwan-gamer-death/index.html Unfortunately, he is not alone. Google "people who have died playing video games". 1
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