The Nehor Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 7 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Yet another irrelevant tangent 1
SamuelTheLamanite Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) 15 minutes ago, kllindley said: I'm kinda nervous to even give this any attention, but what does this have to do with my comment? We are telling the truth. Your comment was On 3/20/2018 at 6:27 PM, kllindley said: Preach, brother! It is my hope that people will listen to your perspective and understand the truths you are sharing. I don't agree with brother Pogi because pornography is a highly addictive drug. Edited March 22, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite
SamuelTheLamanite Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 10 hours ago, The Nehor said: You did miss the irony. You are condemning others for simplicity while offering nothing but platitudes, simplistic understanding of a concept, and simplistic and impractical solutions. What is my simplistic and impractical solution?
SamuelTheLamanite Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 On 3/20/2018 at 4:31 PM, Mansquatch said: Forcing someone to do something that is good for them is evil. On 3/20/2018 at 4:33 PM, The Nehor said: Yet another irrelevant tangent
kllindley Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 56 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: We are telling the truth. Your comment was I don't agree with brother Pogi because pornography is a highly addictive drug. Neither Pogi nor I have ever disagreed that pornography is highly addictive. I have witnessed is destructive effects. In fact, I've dedicated my career to helping individuals break free from that addiction. And I can tell you that my professional opinion is that trying to prohibit pornography would absolutely not make the problem any better. And what I'm agreeing so adamantly with Pogi about is that while pornography is absolutely a problem, in addiction, it is a symptom of a deeper problem. President Kimball said that all sin arises from deep, unmet needs on the part of the sinner, and that if we are to help others overcome sin, we must develop the capacity to see beyond he sin into the deeper needs. 3
california boy Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 3 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: My answer is no. When you only take ONE line out of a persons comment, and then simply say no, it has little meaning. Can you see why people are becoming quite fed up with your lack of respect for other posters in your responses? Do you see anyone else quoting single lines from a half dozen posters with one sentence responses? If you can't be bothered to put forth a good faith response, then why bother at all.
Mansquatch Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 11 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: On 3/20/2018 at 10:31 AM, Mansquatch said: Forcing someone to do something that is good for them is evil. On 3/20/2018 at 10:33 AM, The Nehor said: Yet another irrelevant tangent This is confusing. Are you saying that my statement is irrelevant? If so explain how the statement "Forcing someone to do something that is good for them is evil" is irrelevant to the topic titled, "Prohibition, Yea or Nay"
pogi Posted March 22, 2018 Author Posted March 22, 2018 11 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: We are telling the truth. Who is the "we" you are talking about? You seem to be all on your own, defying those who have been there and done that. You have kllindley (who has devoted his career to addiction recovery), you have Bernard Gui (who has spent the last 20 years serving in the Church's addiction recovery program), and you have me (a recovering addict who has fought this demon to hell and back and has successfully found some semblance of peace and sanity in his life again), all agreeing that porn is only a symptom of the disease - but what do we know? Addictive? Yes. But without the underlying disease, we wouldn't see the problem with it that we see today.
pogi Posted March 22, 2018 Author Posted March 22, 2018 10 hours ago, kllindley said: President Kimball said that all sin arises from deep, unmet needs on the part of the sinner, and that if we are to help others overcome sin, we must develop the capacity to see beyond he sin into the deeper needs. YES! I love this! 1
RevTestament Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 19 hours ago, Danzo said: The amount one would lose by getting married (earned income credit) would not be more than $6,318.00 But you are right, there is a significant marriage penalty built into the tax law, especially for poor people. Its almost like those that developed the earned income credit deliberately wanted to encourage people to shack up instead of getting married. Many social safety net programs also discourage marriage. Immigration law also discourages marriage in many cases as well. The amount lost could be more than $6,318. Remember, in my hypothetical both parents were receiving an earned income credit. While, it is unusual for a male head of household to be receiving the credit, it does happen - wives die, or husbands get custody and get remarried. So if two heads of household each receiving an earned income credit of $6000 got married, and retained their jobs, their credits would all but disappear once their combined income exceeds the $36K range. However, I have seen cases where the mother doesn't want to get married, because she will lose her EIC, even where the new father-to-be made thousands more. Either way, the loss of the credit is a dissuader to marriage. Further, under new law, I would guess there will be more lesbian heads of households who may decide not to marry. 19 hours ago, The Nehor said: Current tax law benefits one income two parent households and is mostly neutral towards dual income households though in individual cases it sometimes falls more heavily one way or the other. Well, in my hypothetical two recipients of EIC were getting married, and presumably would retain their jobs, but you are right that the tax law favors one income two parent households so long as they are filing jointly. However, there is also an incentive for working married couples to cheat, and both try to claim they have been separated more than 6 mo, and live separately while splitting up custody of the kids for purposes of claiming the EIC as Heads of household. Quote I see the desire to separate marriage and government as a misguided attempt at keeping things ‘pure’ for lack of a better word with no benefit and abundant danger. I tend to think that the family unit is already largely destroyed in U.S. society, but that getting the government out of the marriage business could only make it worse. Nevertheless, the sodomy and fornication laws are pretty much out of the picture with recent Supreme Court decisions, so exactly what does government sanctioned marriage accomplish? As I have pointed out, it has largely been used in a social engineering sense to destroy marriage through misguided tax laws and women's liberation type policies. I think society needs to take a good, hard look at policies which don't discourage marriage if government is going to stay in the marriage business. While I don't wish to derail the thread a quick list of the dangers you foresee could be useful. 1
Danzo Posted March 22, 2018 Posted March 22, 2018 21 hours ago, The Nehor said: Current tax law benefits one income two parent households and is mostly neutral towards dual income households though in individual cases it sometimes falls more heavily one way or the other. I see the desire to separate marriage and government as a misguided attempt at keeping things ‘pure’ for lack of a better word with no benefit and abundant danger. Current tax law heavily penalizes low income dual parent households. Just got done telling a young couple that their decision to marry will cost them $3,000.00 These are low income taxpayers. I then explained to them that if they were better off they would not be affected by the tax law, but because they are poor, the government doesn't want them married.
SamuelTheLamanite Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 18 hours ago, california boy said: When you only take ONE line out of a persons comment, and then simply say no, it has little meaning. Can you see why people are becoming quite fed up with your lack of respect for other posters in your responses? Do you see anyone else quoting single lines from a half dozen posters with one sentence responses? If you can't be bothered to put forth a good faith response, then why bother at all. I did answer your question with a simple no. Don't know what else to say. I am surprised you like kllindley's comment above. Good job brother California boy. Let the prophets guide you. 9 hours ago, pogi said: You have kllindley (who has devoted his career to addiction recovery), you have Bernard Gui (who has spent the last 20 years serving in the Church's addiction recovery program), and you have me (a recovering addict who has fought this demon to hell and back and has successfully found some semblance of peace and sanity in his life again), all agreeing that porn is only a symptom of the disease - but what do we know? Addictive? Yes. But without the underlying disease, we wouldn't see the problem with it that we see today. What is the disease? I think Pornography is like a disease because it is highly addictive. Four in ten men are addicted to pornography because it has powerful effects. Pornography is more addictive than cocaine. 10 hours ago, Mansquatch said: This is confusing. Are you saying that my statement is irrelevant? If so explain how the statement "Forcing someone to do something that is good for them is evil" is irrelevant to the topic titled, "Prohibition, Yea or Nay" Nehor's comment is irrelevant. 20 hours ago, kllindley said: And what I'm agreeing so adamantly with Pogi about is that while pornography is absolutely a problem, in addiction, it is a symptom of a deeper problem. What is the deeper problem? 20 hours ago, kllindley said: And I can tell you that my professional opinion is that trying to prohibit pornography would absolutely not make the problem any better. Professional opinion? What is your profession klindley?
kllindley Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 7 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Professional opinion? What is your profession klindley? Licensed Professional Counselor. 8 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: What is the deeper problem? Depends on the person. Usually some variation of emotional dysregulation (whether a clinical emotional disorder or not) almost always compounded by shame.
SamuelTheLamanite Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 22 minutes ago, kllindley said: Licensed Professional Counselor. Depends on the person. Usually some variation of emotional dysregulation (whether a clinical emotional disorder or not) almost always compounded by shame. Interesting. Do you believe pornography is highly addictive? Doesn't pornography lead to emotional dysregulation? I thought pornography was the root of the problem. I am so confused now, I don't know what to think anymore. On 3/21/2018 at 8:54 PM, Jeanne said: The thing is..to us "said" critics...we have actually watched our families being torn apart...for some families it was a duty to do so. We don't think the church destroys family...we have seen it. Not to all families..but it has been done...of course..it is the same way for those who convert and leave their core family religion to be baptized...but that is just another confirmation of what happens. Religion isn't a symptom of emotional dysregulation.
SamuelTheLamanite Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 10 hours ago, pogi said: Addictive? Yes. But without the underlying disease, we wouldn't see the problem with it that we see today. As I tell kllindley I am so confused right now.
The Nehor Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 13 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: As I tell kllindley I am so confused right now. Karma strikes again.
SamuelTheLamanite Posted March 23, 2018 Posted March 23, 2018 16 hours ago, The Nehor said: Karma strikes again. I am still confused
pogi Posted March 25, 2018 Author Posted March 25, 2018 On 3/22/2018 at 7:35 PM, SamuelTheLamanite said: I thought pornography was the root of the problem. On 3/22/2018 at 7:37 PM, SamuelTheLamanite said: As I tell kllindley I am so confused right now. Porn is not the root. It is the symptom. Listen to professionals. Ask any addict in recovery. Go to support groups. They will all tell you the same thing. Compulsive porn use/addiction is only the symptom of much deeper core issues. Toxic shame --> detrimental self-beliefs (unacceptable, unlovable, unworthy of attention; I am a mistake vs. I made a mistake) ---> Isolation (fear of being discovered for who the REAL unacceptable you is, so you build impenetrable walls around your heart) --> Any number of harmful coping behaviors (porn, drugs, alcohol, tv, video games, extra marital affairs, perfectionism or its opposite, hyper religiosity or it's opposite, over eating, under eating, obsessive behaviors, control freak, internet forum compulsion abusive behavior, violence, rage, apathy, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.) People may appear to have it all together on the outside, but it may be a front, a mask, a wall. Without these roots, porn could never develop into a compulsive/addictive behavior. It only becomes a serious problem for people to overcome when they use it as a pseudo intimacy to avoid and cope with the lack of real human intimacy and emotional vulnerability. That is why it is not enough to simply eliminate or block porn from a persons life. Until they address these core issues, the problem will simply manifest itself in one of the other harmful coping mechanisms listed above. Unfortunately, the taboo nature of porn makes it that much more shameful. For example, hyper religiosity can be just as serious a problem, but our culture actually praises such behavior. On the outside everything looks perfect and meticulous, but on the inside, the individual can be just as spiritually dead as a porn addict. They are no more righteous then a porn addict, though they may be judged to be so by others. A perfect example of this hyper religiosity is Brother Bishop. On the outside he is a religious super hero, but on the inside he is spiritually rotting, totally isolated, and coping in destructive ways. 2
SamuelTheLamanite Posted March 25, 2018 Posted March 25, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, pogi said: Without these roots, porn could never develop into a compulsive/addictive behavior. It only becomes a serious problem for people to overcome when they use it as a pseudo intimacy to avoid and cope with the lack of real human intimacy and emotional vulnerability. That is why it is not enough to simply eliminate or block porn from a persons life. Until they address these core issues, the problem will simply manifest itself in one of the other harmful coping mechanisms listed above. I am still confused because pornography is a highly addictive drug. According to psychiatry an addiction is "a complex condition, a brain disease that is manifested by compulsive substance use despite harmful consequence. People with addiction (severe substance use disorder) have an intense focus on using a certain substance(s), such as alcohol or drugs, to the point that it takes over their life" As I understand an addiction is something that takes over your life because it is the problem. Suppose Tim is addicted to gambling. If Tim's wife manages to prevent him from gambling again how would the problem manifest itself in some other form? Help me understand. Edited March 25, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite
kllindley Posted March 25, 2018 Posted March 25, 2018 4 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: I am still confused because pornography is a highly addictive drug. According to psychiatry an addiction is "a complex condition, a brain disease that is manifested by compulsive substance use despite harmful consequence. People with addiction (severe substance use disorder) have an intense focus on using a certain substance(s), such as alcohol or drugs, to the point that it takes over their life" As I understand an addiction is something that takes over your life because it is the problem. Suppose Tim is addicted to gambling. If Tim's wife manages to prevent him from gambling again how would the problem manifest itself in some other form? Help me understand. If you really want to understand, I would ask you to read the information on this site including the document. http://www.byui.edu/counseling-center/self-help/compulsive-behaviors
SamuelTheLamanite Posted March 25, 2018 Posted March 25, 2018 (edited) 25 minutes ago, kllindley said: If you really want to understand, I would ask you to read the information on this site including the document. Thanks for trying to help, but I am now more confused. A compulsive behavior is "often what we think of when considering obsessive-compulsive behavior: a person who washes their hands five times in a row or must lock their car door three times before walking away. A compulsion usually isn’t a mild action or a desire to do a specific thing but a behavior that the individual cannot resist carrying out. Usually, a compulsion is guided by a fear (for example, a fear of germs or of being robbed). This motivates the compulsion, but the fear is not usually rational and the compulsive behavior will not necessarily protect the individual from experiencing their fear. It is merely a behavior that is performed to alleviate an anxiety or fear, no matter how irrational it is." According to the same article "Addiction has many similarities to compulsion, but they are not exactly the same issue. “Addictions, similar to compulsions, can offer relief from stress or anxiety, but are characterized primarily by an inability to discontinue a harmful behavior despite its negative consequences.” But an addiction itself often changes the way the brain works as well, which helps to further the individual’s dangerous behavior. In addition, many individuals attempt to cope with anxiety, mood disorders, and other issues by abusing substances" Is pornography a highly addictive drug or a compulsive behavior? I need to understand. Edited March 25, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite
kllindley Posted March 25, 2018 Posted March 25, 2018 27 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Thanks for trying to help, but I am now more confused. A compulsive behavior is "often what we think of when considering obsessive-compulsive behavior: a person who washes their hands five times in a row or must lock their car door three times before walking away. A compulsion usually isn’t a mild action or a desire to do a specific thing but a behavior that the individual cannot resist carrying out. Usually, a compulsion is guided by a fear (for example, a fear of germs or of being robbed). This motivates the compulsion, but the fear is not usually rational and the compulsive behavior will not necessarily protect the individual from experiencing their fear. It is merely a behavior that is performed to alleviate an anxiety or fear, no matter how irrational it is." According to the same article "Addiction has many similarities to compulsion, but they are not exactly the same issue. “Addictions, similar to compulsions, can offer relief from stress or anxiety, but are characterized primarily by an inability to discontinue a harmful behavior despite its negative consequences.” But an addiction itself often changes the way the brain works as well, which helps to further the individual’s dangerous behavior. In addition, many individuals attempt to cope with anxiety, mood disorders, and other issues by abusing substances" Is pornography a highly addictive drug or a compulsive behavior? I need to understand. I get the feeling that you didn't read the article. http://www.byui.edu/Documents/counseling-center/Compulsive Behaviors/Compulsive Behaviors.pdf 2
pogi Posted March 25, 2018 Author Posted March 25, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Is pornography a highly addictive drug or a compulsive behavior? I need to understand. No, pornography is not a drug - that should be obvious. It is a behavior that can turn into compulsion and addiction. It is no different from sex in that regard - same neurochemical response. However, some may argue that it is not an addiction at all: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/201307/your-brain-porn-its-not-addictive To me it all depends on why you seek it out. If it becomes a tool to numb/avoid the pain of self-imposed isolation, then it can become an extremely addictive and effective tool of avoidance. If it is not used in such a negative way, then it is no more addictive then sex. 10 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: As I understand an addiction is something that takes over your life because it is the problem. This is true, addiction is the problem. You simply are neglecting to understand what behavioral addiction is. It's manifestation (porn) is simply a superficial symptom. Dont respond until you have read and understand this material (there is tons of material out there, but this should suffice): https://www.thetreatmentcenter.com/blog/toxic-shame-the-true-soul-sickness-of-addiction/ https://psychcentral.com/lib/shame-the-core-of-addiction-and-codependency/ https://www.themeadows.com/blog/item/152-the-role-of-shame-in-addiction People who are addicted to porn are in hiding/isolation because of detrimental self-beliefs - period. THAT is the problem!!! That is what is so spiritually devastating about it. Edited March 25, 2018 by pogi 2
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