Where did the Book of Mormon come from?

[ttribe]

16 minutes ago, JarMan said:

Of course I'm not unaware. I just think the proposed similarities are ridiculous.

Well, then, it seems you asked the wrong question.

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, JarMan said:

I'm genuinely interested in what you think is 19th Century but not 17th Century. I have found very little (besides the obvious references to Joseph) that can't be just as easily related to the 17th Century. 19th Century frontier-American Protestant culture directly descends from 17th Century European Protestantism, after all. To me it seems like the precise areas where we find a discontinuity between the two cultures is precisely where we find something in the Book of Mormon that doesn't fit Joseph's world. The ideal form of government and church-state relations are the two examples I previously brought up. 

I’ve been arguing about this stuff around here for years, and I don’t have the interest to get back into it. I know, it sounds like an excuse, and maybe it is, but it never ends well. 

[JarMan]

2 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Well, then, it seems you asked the wrong question.

No, I asked a loaded question. But jkwilliams didn’t take the bait. What about you? Are there 19th Century books you think correlate with the Book of Mormon?

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, ttribe said:

You can't possibly be unaware of the long standing critiques suggesting similarities between the Book of Mormon and a host of other contemporary books, are you?

Host?

[ttribe]

10 minutes ago, JarMan said:

No, I asked a loaded question. But jkwilliams didn’t take the bait. What about you? Are there 19th Century books you think correlate with the Book of Mormon?

Not taking the bait, either.

9 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Host?

Huh?

[Bernard Gui]

12 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Not taking the bait, either.

Huh?

Host of contemporary books?

[jkwilliams]

22 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Not taking the bait, either.

Huh?

Consider an analogy. Say you know a lot about 80s teen comedies, but you’ve never seen Sixteen Candles. After watching it for 5 minutes you’d know it was an 80s teen comedy, not only because of the fashions, the cars, and the word usage, but also the themes. You wouldn’t need to pinpoint a source because the cultural setting is obvious. 

Now, imagine someone shows you Freaks and Geeks. It looks like an 80s teen comedy, but if you watch enough of it, you can see it’s all affected, intentionally mimicking the tropes of that genre. Watch it carefully enough, and you can see that it’s clearly situated at the turn of the millennium. 

The Book of Mormon is clearly a product of its environment, and trying to draw parallels to a source text is as pointless as trying to find some nebulous “bullseye” in Mesoamerica. 

In some respects, Harold Bloom was right it saying you don’t really have to read the text all the way through to know where it comes from. You don’t have to watch Ferris Bueller all the way through to know where it comes from. 

[JarMan]

45 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I’ve been arguing about this stuff around here for years, and I don’t have the interest to get back into it. I know, it sounds like an excuse, and maybe it is, but it never ends well. 

I'm probably not much different than you and several other people on this forum who defended the traditional model for a long time but eventually came to the conclusion that it was just too difficult to justify on a non-faith-based basis. The difference with me is that I still find the 19th Century model lacking. . . but I'm willing to take an honest look at the evidence. Problem is I can't get anybody to tell me what the evidence is. Do you at least have some sources you could refer me to?

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Like anything in early Mormon history, bits and pieces scattered here and there give some insight. The William Hyde interviews are interesting. Hyde said Joseph Smith Sr. as "always appeared to be in a deep study" and "from the time of his first visit until his religious scheme was sprung I don't believe he missed a night without stopping with me for at least three hours. There wasn't a subject he couldn't discuss intelligently, and my opinion of him was high. His memory was something extraordinary. He could repeat several chapters of a book verbatim after it had been read rapidly." That's some remarkable insight into what we could expect to find in the Smith home.

Lucy also famously said that Joseph Jr. would sit with the family and tell stories about the natives and all their activities. Sure there must have been some talk about chores and weather, but I feel we underestimate how much the Smiths, especially Sr.,  enjoyed talking for hours with friends and acquaintances, telling stories about obscure topics like sunken continents and native americans. While living in Norwich, near Dartmouth, Sr sold concessions. I would assume he met a lot of people associated with Dartmouth. The narratives in the Book of Mormon could have started taking shape when the family moved near Dartmouth and Sr had his earliest visions, at least two of those visions show some familiarity with the visions of Lehi.

In another example, the Fayette Lapham interviews with Sr. show his familiarity with the Book of Mormon narratives around the time it was published, suggesting the Smiths were talking about the stories, possibly before publication. 

So, we have diverse opinions of two men about Joseph Smith, Sr. One of them even said,

Quote

His son Joseph, whom he called the illiterate, when about fourteen years of age, happened to be where a man was looking into a dark stone...” 

So, Joseph Sr. (who others described as shiftless, ignorant, lazy, and a drunkard) was a pretty smart cookie, but he himself described his son Joseph Jr. as “the illiterate?”  Would you please provide the reference for the William Hyde quote? Thank you.

[JarMan]

37 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Not taking the bait, either.

Well, I provided several 17th Century-ish texts if you care to check them out. I've been studying them over the last several months and I've been blown away.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, JarMan said:

I'm probably not much different than you and several other people on this forum who defended the traditional model for a long time but eventually came to the conclusion that it was just too difficult to justify on a non-faith-based basis. The difference with me is that I still find the 19th Century model lacking. . . but I'm willing to take an honest look at the evidence. Problem is I can't get anybody to tell me what the evidence is. Do you at least have some sources you could refer me to?

I would stay away from parallel-drawers on either the apologetic side or the critical side. Rather, I’d read the source material on what Americans in Joseph Smith’s day thought about religion, the moundbuilders, Native Americans, secret combinations, and American destiny. A good place to start would be Dale Broadhurst’s massive online collection of contemporary sources. 

[JarMan]

4 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I would stay away from parallel-drawers on either the apologetic side or the critical side. Rather, I’d read the source material on what Americans in Joseph Smith’s day thought about religion, the moundbuilders, Native Americans, secret combinations, and American destiny. A good place to start would be Dale Broadhurst’s massive online collection of contemporary sources. 

I'm a little intimidated by "massive online collection." Any specific titles in mind? I waded through dozens of 16th/17th Century texts over about six months to come up with the list of "hits" I provided and I'm hoping to save some time.

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, JarMan said:

I'm a little intimidated by "massive online collection." Any specific titles in mind? I waded through dozens of 16th/17th Century texts over about six months to come up with the list of "hits" I provided and I'm hoping to save some time.

Just go and browse (he has a Google search feature). You don’t need to make an exhaustive survey. Just start looking around, and you’ll find yourself in familiar territory. I promise. 🙂

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

Consider an analogy. Say you know a lot about 80s teen comedies, but you’ve never seen Sixteen Candles. After watching it for 5 minutes you’d know it was an 80s teen comedy, not only because of the fashions, the cars, and the word usage, but also the themes. You wouldn’t need to pinpoint a source because the cultural setting is obvious. 

Now, imagine someone shows you Freaks and Geeks. It looks like an 80s teen comedy, but if you watch enough of it, you can see it’s all affected, intentionally mimicking the tropes of that genre. Watch it carefully enough, and you can see that it’s clearly situated at the turn of the millennium. 

The Book of Mormon is clearly a product of its environment,...

Would you come to the same conclusions if there were a dearth of words and objects in the dialogue that were commonly and iconically used by other 80s teen movies? Dork, undies, wimp, dude, babe, airhead, stud, torqued, bus, telephone, automobile, trousers, jeans, shorts,  sweater, shoes, outer limits, birthday cake, psycho, blitzed, beer, major downer, the pill, cars, license, binders, stove, braces, dollars, foreign exchange student, metalhead, computer, school, lockers, convertible, wristwatch, headphones, t-shirts, Coke.....

I find it interesting that there is a dearth of words in the BoM that were universally used by contemporary writers in works portrayed Plains or North-eastern Native American cultures in the 18th and 19th centuries, such as bison, beaver, eagle, deer, fox, turkey, raven, fishing, beads, shells, cotton, feathers, bark, wampum, pottery, baskets, corn, beans,  gourd, squash, pemmican, trapping, fur, canoe, hatchet, tomahawk, drum, flute, war dance, war chant, club, counting coup, powwow, scout, tobacco, pipe, warrior, squaw, papoose, woodlands, moccasin, medicine, totem, tipi, wigwam, lodge, redskin, noble savage......

 

Edited March 23, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[jkwilliams]

19 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Would you come to the same conclusions if there were a dearth of words and objects in the dialogue that were commonly and iconically used by other 80s teen movies? Dork, undies, wimp, dude, babe, airhead, stud, torqued, bus, telephone, automobile, trousers, jeans, shorts,  sweater, shoes, outer limits, birthday cake, psycho, blitzed, beer, major downer, the pill, cars, license, binders, stove, braces, dollars, foreign exchange student, metalhead, computer, school, lockers, convertible, wristwatch, headphones, t-shirts, Coke.....

I find it interesting that there is a dearth of words in the BoM that were universally used by contemporary writers in works portrayed Plains or North-eastern Native American cultures in the 18th and 19th centuries, such as bison, beaver, eagle, deer, fox, turkey, raven, fishing, beads, shells, cotton, feathers, bark, wampum, pottery, baskets, corn, beans,  gourd, squash, pemmican, trapping, fur, canoe, hatchet, tomahawk, drum, flute, war dance, war chant, club, counting coup, powwow, scout, tobacco, pipe, warrior, squaw, papoose, woodlands, moccasin, medicine, totem, tipi, wigwam, lodge, redskin, noble savage......

 

The analogy was to Freaks and Geeks, which had a dearth of words used in the time period it arose and instead affected the language of an earlier time. 

[ttribe]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Host?

Synonyms: Multitude, lot, abundance

It was also a bit of hyperbole.  So?

[jkwilliams]

I should mention that moundbuilder mythology tended to avoid those typical Native American words. 

[Rajah Manchou]

2 hours ago, JarMan said:

Problem is I can't get anybody to tell me what the evidence is. Do you at least have some sources you could refer me to?

The visions of Joseph Smith Sr show some familiarity with the visions of Lehi, 19 years before the Book of Mormon was published. Here's one:

"In 1811, we moved from Royalton, Vermont, to the town of Lebanon, New Hampshire. Soon after arriving here, my husband received another very singular vision, which I will relate:

"I thought," said he, "I was traveling in an open, desolate field, which appeared to be very barren. As I was thus traveling, the thought suddenly came into my mind that I had better stop and reflect upon what I was doing, before I went any farther. So I asked myself, 'What motive can I have in traveling here, and what place can this be?' My guide, who was by my side, as before, said, "This is the desolate world; but travel on.' The road was so broad and barren that I wondered why I should travel in it; for, said I to myself, Broad is the road, and wide is the gate that leads to death, and many there be that walk therein; but narrow is the way, and strait is the gate that leads thereat.'

Traveling a short distance further, I came to a narrow path. This path I entered, and, when I had traveled a little way in it. I beheld a beautiful stream of water, which ran most the east to the west. Of this stream, I could see neither the source nor yet the mouth; but as far as my eyes could extend I could see a rope, running along the bank of it, about as high as a man could reach, and beyond me was a low, but very pleasant valley, in which stood a tree such as I had never seen before. It was exceedingly handsome, insomuch that I looked upon it with wonder and admiration. Its beautiful branches spread themselves somewhat like an umbrella, and it bore a kind of fruit, in shape much like a chestnut bur, and as white as snow, or, if possible, whiter. I gazed upon the same with considerable interest, and as I was doing so, the burs or shells commenced opening and shedding their particles, or the fruit which they contained, which was of dazzling whiteness. I drew near, 'I cannot eat this alone, I must bring my wife and children, that they may partake with me.'

Accordingly, I went and brought my family which consisted of a wife and seven children, and we all commenced eating and praising God for this blessing. We were exceedingly happy, insomuch that our joy could not easily be expressed. While thus engaged, I beheld a spacious building standing opposite the valley which we were in, and it appeared to reach to the very heavens. It was full of people, who were very finely dressed. When these people observed us in the low valley, under the tree, they pointed the finger of scorn at us, and treated us with all manner of disrespect and contempt. But their contumely we utterly disregarded.

I presently turned to my guide and inquired of him the meaning of the fruit that was so delicious. He told me it was the pure love of God, shed abroad in the hearts of all those who love him, and keep his commandments He then commanded me go and bring the rest of my children I told him that we were all there. 'No,' he replied, 'look yonder, you have two more, and you must bring them also.' Upon raising my eyes, I saw two small children, standing some distance off. I immediately went to them, and brought them to the tree; upon which they commenced eating with the rest, and we all rejoiced together. The more we ate, the more we seemed to desire, until we even got down upon our knees and scooped it up, eating it by double handfuls. After feasting in this manner a short time, I asked my guide what was the meaning of the spacious building which I saw. He replied, 'It is Babylon, it is Babylon and it must fall. The people in the doors and windows are the inhabitants thereof, who scorn and despise the Saints of God because of their humility.' I soon awoke, clapping my hands together for joy."

I know the argument is that Lucy wrote her readings of the Book of Mormon into her memories of the dreams. But that, if true, is also somewhat of a revelation.]

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

The analogy was to Freaks and Geeks, which had a dearth of words used in the time period it arose and instead affected the language of an earlier time. 

That is not what I asked, but thanks anyway. Have a great day!

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said:

That is not what I asked, but thanks anyway. Have a great day!

I answered in a later post. 

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, ttribe said:

Synonyms: Multitude, lot, abundance

It was also a bit of hyperbole.  So?

Synonyms: overstatement, distortion, hype.

Have a great day!

[Rajah Manchou]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

So, we have diverse opinions of two men about Joseph Smith, Sr. One of them even said,

So, Joseph Sr. (who others described as shiftless, ignorant, lazy, and a drunkard) was a pretty smart cookie, but he himself described his son Joseph Jr. as “the illiterate?” Would you please provide the reference for the William Hyde quote? Thank you.

Frustrating isn't it.

But William Hyde seems to me to be sincere and honest. He respected Joseph Smith Sr. but was not a member. There were two interviews, one by a Chicago Times reporter who seems to have had an agenda, and a follow up by a Deseret News reporter, also with an agenda. Both are found on Dale Broadhurst's site but are difficult to find on the page, so I've copied them here:

https://www.evernote.com/l/AAiEf_mdpTpIArEkWJBYimCKm-hZWZCvArA

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I should mention that moundbuilder mythology tended to avoid those typical Native American words. 

Any late 18th or early 19th century novels or books about mound builders that we could examine?

[Rajah Manchou]

3 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I would stay away from parallel-drawers on either the apologetic side or the critical side. Rather, I’d read the source material on what Americans in Joseph Smith’s day thought about religion, the moundbuilders, Native Americans, secret combinations, and American destiny. A good place to start would be Dale Broadhurst’s massive online collection of contemporary sources. 

Here's one thought that formed while reading Uncle Dale's collection on moundbuilder mythology. One of the most common theories was promoted by Samuel Mitchill of Detroit Manuscript and Anthon Transcript fame. His idea was that the moundbuilders were darker-skinned Malays who had sailed across the Pacific and traveled east, eventually encountering the whiter-skinned Tartars who had crossed at the Bearing Strait. There was a battle in upstate New York. Mitchill mentions a number of things in his accounts of Malays and Tartars that aren't far off from the Book of Mormon. I've gone into detail about these elsewhere, and won't bother doing it again. 

In my opinion, the anachronisms in the Book of Mormon are quite simply explained if we consider the book opens with a migration to Asia, before the crossing of the sea, similar to how Solomon Spaulding's Manuscript Story was said to open:

"It purported to give a history of the ten tribes, their disputes and dissentions concerning the religion of their fathers, their division into two parties; one called Nephites the other Lamanites; their bloody wars, followed by reunion and migration via the Red Sea to the Pacific Ocean; their residence for a long time in China; their crossing the ocean by Behrings Straits in North America, thus becoming the progenitors of the Indians who have inhabited or now live in this continent. This was the story which her uncle John, Mr. Lake, Mr. Miller and other neighbors heard him read at Conneaut on different occasions.” [link]

A number of other books and lectures from the period, including Ethan Smith, Samuel Mithchill, Rafinesque, and John Smith, tell of the same origins and migrations. I agree there is a lot of moundbuilder mythology there, but not American moundbuilders. Sort through the volumes of material available in the 19th century on the Malay and also the Tartar/Scythian moundbuilders, AKA the lost tribe of the Nephthalites, for much better examples.

[Rajah Manchou]

17 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Any late 18th or early 19th century novels or books about mound builders that we could examine?

There was next to nothing written about American moundbuilders. But as mentioned above, most people of that period believed the American moundbuilders were Tartarian moundbuilders who crossed at the Straits. So the material available at the time on the Malays, Tartars and Scythians seems to be a better fit.

I'm slowly slogging my way through Joseph de Guignes' "General History of Huns, Turks, Mogols, and other Western Tartars" These would have been the types of books that Americans would have been reading to understand the Native Americans better.