Buzzfeed Article on Mormon Women Being Abused: I Got Some Questions

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I can't read more than just the short bit I did around the killing threat today.

My mother sounds well composed, well spoken, and aware unless she is tired.  She can discuss books she has read in detail, unless one pays attention, it can be easy to miss much of what she says is repeating what she just heard. She also has a lot of humor.  Dementia is not always easy to spot.

It is possible if there is dementia he is misremembering and instead creating much content based on how he wished it had happened...if he confessed and was still place in positions of trust, it is others' fault as well as his own, he doesn't have to feel alone in responsibility for his sins.

If it did happen that way, I hope changes have been made and think it is likely they have been if only for the legal liability...but I suspect awareness of addiction has also grown and so procedures reflect that as well.

If they haven't changed, this may do it.

Calm, are you not seeing this transcript for what it really is?  A confession!

[Calm]

1 hour ago, CA Steve said:

8  years younger than the prophet.

Yep, there is a lot of variation of competency at that time of life.  I find it remarkable how sharp the senior apostles are in most cases.  Either the work keeps their brains flexible or they are getting an extra assist from the Lord in some cases, I am thinking...or both.

I will admit with my parents and some other relatives and friends, I tend to not give the benefit of the doubt these days once people are in their 80s until I have seen behaviour for a bit.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

20 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Calm, are you not seeing this transcript for what it really is?  A confession!

His admission of an addiction appears independent so I am accepting that as valid, it is the specifics I am suspicious on...I just don't trust the memory of 80 year olds these days unless I have evidence they don't have issues.  Unreliable, easily rewritten memory is so in my face, day after day a pile of manure I have to deal with, it has made me gun shy.

Add to that the weirdness coming from her side of the conversation...I am not drawing any conclusion save I hope they get the law involved or some other professionals to investigate it.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Calm

[stemelbow]

Appalling.

Most appalling - this guy and his life time of misusing and assaulting women.

second most - he went into the interview to talk about his lifetime of achievements as if he should be looked up to.  

third most - the Church's cover-up when it was ever reported, even by himself to some extent.

fourth most - his claim that there are others like him in the Church

fifth most - The Church did nothing since 2010.  

sixth most - the responses here.

seventh most - anyone took her shooting him threat seriously.  

eighth most - I'm feeling the need to list the appaling aspects of this.  

[CA Steve]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

Yep, there is a lot of variation of competency at that time of life.  I find it remarkable how sharp the senior apostles are in most cases.  Either the work keeps their brains flexible or they are getting an extra assist from the Lord in some cases, I am thinking...or both.

I will admit with my parents and some other relatives and friends, I tend to not give the benefit of the doubt these days once people are in their 80s until I have seen behaviour for a bit.

But the conditions under which we see the senior leadership  are much more controlled. I have to wonder  how well some of them would do if they were placed in a situation of a one on one unscripted, unrehearsed  interview?  I am sure it would vary from one to the other but I tend to think they might not all be quite what we think they are. 

[Jeanne]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

His admission of an addiction appears independent so I am accepting that as valid, it is the specifics I am suspicious on...I just don't trust the memory of 80 year olds these days unless I have evidence they don't have issues.  Unreliable, easily rewritten memory is so in my face, day after day a pile of manure I have to deal with, it has made me gun shy.

Add to that the weirdness coming from her side of the conversation...I am not drawing any conclusion save I hope they get the law involved or some other professionals to investigate it.

But you trust the memory of a Prophet that is 8 years older...I will concede that this is only possible.

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

But the conditions under which we see the senior leadership  are much more controlled. I have to wonder  how well some of them would do if they were placed in a situation of a one on one unscripted, unrehearsed  interview?  I am sure it would vary from one to the other but I tend to think they might not all be quite what we think they are. 

Yep, this kind of thing would likely be very stressful and bring out the worst...which may be why the man sounds so spacey from the transcript at times to me in the little I read...the biker comment for example.  Seriously, who would normally respond like that when being told someone wanted to kill them?

Familar tasks and issues might not cause the least bit of problem, but there may be less adaptability to new ideas, new situations.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

But you trust the memory of a Prophet that is 8 years older...

I have seen Pres. Nelson in action.  I know nothing about this person, either of them.

Both of them seem off to me.  It may just be the extreme stress of the moment and they are both just saying the first thing that hits their mind.  On the other hand, it may indicate something else is going on.  I therefore believe it should be taken very seriously and investigated, including finding other victims and giving them a chance to tell their story and checking with the church leaders being accused of letting the predator stay in positions knowingly.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Calm

[HappyJackWagon]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

His admission of an addiction appears independent so I am accepting that as valid, it is the specifics I am suspicious on...I just don't trust the memory of 80 year olds these days unless I have evidence they don't have issues.  Unreliable, easily rewritten memory is so in my face, day after day a pile of manure I have to deal with, it has made me gun shy.

This is one reason so many people are skeptical about the "revelation" around the Policy of Exclusion. I don't think we have nearly enough access to senior church leaders to know whether or not they are impaired. Even when we know they are, there seems to still be a pass given. I have ZERO confidence that Pres. Monson had the capability to make decisions, let alone receive legitimate "revelation" during the last years of his amazing life. It's sad that he is saddled with some terrible decisions he realistically had very little, if anything, to do with. When the elderly become incompetent, it is cruel to put them in the situation where they can be manipulated and misrepresented. In banking, they call that Elder Abuse. (no pun intended)

I know a couple of very sharp 85-90 year olds but at that stage of life it seems to be more of an exception than the rule.

Regarding this mission president, the church is going to continue to have serious issues as long as they maintain and defend this uncanonized requirement to have leaders meet one on one with members behind closed doors. With so many leaders serving in bishoprics, stake presidencies, etc. etc., there are bound to be some bad eggs. Right now the system provides a bit of a safe harbor for these guys but that could easily be changed.

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

This is one reason so many people are skeptical about the "revelation" around the Policy of Exclusion. I don't think we have nearly enough access to senior church leaders to know whether or not they are impaired. Even when we know they are, there seems to still be a pass given. I have ZERO confidence that Pres. Monson had the capability to make decisions, let alone receive legitimate "revelation" during the last years of his amazing life. It's sad that he is saddled with some terrible decisions he realistically had very little, if anything, to do with. When the elderly become incompetent, it is cruel to put them in the situation where they can be manipulated and misrepresented. In banking, they call that Elder Abuse. (no pun intended)

I know a couple of very sharp 85-90 year olds but at that stage of life it seems to be more of an exception than the rule.

I do believe the Lord can make up for physical and mental limitations in the elderly, but I understand why many might see it the way you do.

I am certainly wondering about the behind the scenes in many cases, but I don't have zero confidence.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Calm

[juliann]

49 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Calm, are you not seeing this transcript for what it really is?  A confession!

But it was a confused one that he slipped in and out of. He really didn't sound all there. That he would even go down that line of questioning with her is evidence of that. He is obviously trying to compartmentalize assault as an "addiction" and he wants to make it about how he feels and what a victim he is which seems typical of predators. 

She should not have published stuff about his family members though, that could have easily been redacted. This is another example of someone thinking the church is a substitute for police, although I don't know what can be done now except destroy him personally. I have no sympathy for the guy but like Calm said, she didn't make me want to cheer for her. Maybe she comes off better in the audio.

[HappyJackWagon]

26 minutes ago, Calm said:

I do believe the Lord can make up for physical and mental limitations in the elderly, but I understand why many might see it the way you do.

I am certainly wondering about the behind the scenes in many cases, but I don't have zero confidence.

I also believe that is possible but I've never seen it work that way so the possibility seems more theoretical to me. So just like you said that you are distrusting of the memory of elderly unless you see evidence that shows they are capable, I find myself in the same boat, but haven't seen the evidence.

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, juliann said:

 although I don't know what can be done now except destroy him personally...

I am not thinking too clearly, it might be too far past statue of limitations for police to investigate.

I suspect the Church leadership will, but they will not be publishing their findings and shouldn't imo (on general principle).

As far as destroying him personally, seems likely the two of them have done it already with this recording.  Unless he can prove it wasn't actually him on the recording, he admitted to enough he likely won't be trusted enough by many for the rest.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Calm

[Duncan]

2 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I also believe that is possible but I've never seen it work that way so the possibility seems more theoretical to me. So just like you said that you are distrusting of the memory of elderly unless you see evidence that shows they are capable, I find myself in the same boat, but haven't seen the evidence.

My Dad is 85 and his memory, unlike his eyesight, is pretty sharp. He remembers stuff that happened in WW2 and conversations he had in 1962 and on and on, he is healthy as can be expected but not everyone is like my Dad though! He reads and watches TV and gets regular check ups so I think that helps him out. My Dad though unlike this man would shut down if he was accused of anything. He is one of those people that when he tells you something from the past, you better remember it because that may be the only time he'll tell you! hahhahaha!

[Calm]

In a private Facebook group, one poster claimed this:

"I know Pres. Bishop. He was my second mission president in Argentina. 
I seriously doubt that this is true.

He’s had worsening dementia over the last several years, and I think that the interviewer has manipulated him."

I don't know the person reporting it so can't vouch for him.

Another poster reported his stuff has been pulled from lds.org and Deseretbook.  

Couldnt find anything in news reports, but it is all over Reddit.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Calm

[Duncan]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

In a private Facebook group, one poster claimed this:

"I know Pres. Bishop. He was my second mission president in Argentina. 
I seriously doubt that this is true.

He’s had worsening dementia over the last several years, and I think that the interviewer has manipulated him."

I don't know the person reporting it so can't vouch for him.

i'm sure the statute of limitations ran out years ago and if this is true , he wouldn't be fit to stand trial. I don't know what he'd get, I don't know much about US laws and i've seen every episode of Night Court and Law Order. I think the public outcry is probably worse than what he'd get from any legal stuff

[Calm]

26 minutes ago, Duncan said:

i'm sure the statute of limitations ran out years ago and if this is true , he wouldn't be fit to stand trial. I don't know what he'd get, I don't know much about US laws and i've seen every episode of Night Court and Law Order. I think the public outcry is probably worse than what he'd get from any legal stuff

It has been 33 years and I don't believe what he admitted to is covered by the no time limit.  Someone who had read or listened to the whole thing will need to say what her claims fall under:

https://www.rainn.org/pdf-files-and-other-documents/Public-Policy/Legal-resources/2009-Statutes/09UtahStatutes.pdf

Edited March 20, 2018 by Calm

[Duncan]

Just now, Calm said:

It has been 33 years and I don't believe what he admitted to is covered by the no time limit.  Someone who had read or listened to the whole thing will need to say what her claims fall under:

so he's not looking good in this if he's arrested and fit for trial and all that? 

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, Duncan said:

so he's not looking good in this if he's arrested and fit for trial and all that? 

It sounds possible he is not fit for trial, but didn't she just claim attempted rape?  If so, it doesn't appear under the no time limit and I don't think it qualifies for aggravated sexual assault as that would require a weapon, I believe.  It looks like there is a four year limitation?

A bit of research leads me to believe attempt is a misdemeanor even if sexual assault.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Calm

[Duncan]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

It sounds possible he is not fit for trial, but didn't she just claim attempted rape?  If so, it doesn't appear under the no time limit and I don't think it qualifies for aggravated sexual assault as that would require a weapon, I believe.  It looks like there is a four year limitation?

hmm, then the public outcry will be great as people want justice

[Calm]

28 minutes ago, Duncan said:

hmm, then the public outcry will be great as people want justice

There haven't been any news reports on it yet.  And that surprises me if it is credible.

I think a lot will depend on what can be confirmed and what cannot be.  If it turns out he has advanced dementia, if there is a negative history known for her for fraud or dishonesty in general, it could die down quickly.  Otoh, if other women start making similar claims (which I think the reporters are going to be looking for), it could get lots of legs.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Calm

[strappinglad]

To me, there is the distinct odor of  Danish horsefeathers about this entire set up. The timing is convenient. I recall the splash around Hugh Nibley and his daughter during the era when " repressed memories " were the outrage de jour . I don't think any prosecutor would touch this with a 10 meter pole.

Edited March 20, 2018 by strappinglad

[Tacenda]

21 hours ago, Jeanne said:

I could not finish...so sick to my stomach..you see. ..no matter how much compassion I have for this man or his victims...My Father In Heaven saw this..He let it be..and yet set another position for him to be responsible for...I am so sorry for these women..for HIS family..but Tacenda..I have no compassion for this man.

I understand Jeanne, I feel like doing a soul search on myself and figure out why I felt he was repentant. Where in reality if he truly were repentant he would have sought her out years ago. My bad, and I am one of those suckers every minute. He was only saying what he could to get her to not go public, he was only backtracking to cover his butt. My compassion should only be for her and his family, period.

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I understand Jeanne, I feel like doing a soul search on myself and figure out why I felt he was repentant. Where in reality if he truly were repentant he would have sought her out years ago. My bad, and I am one of those suckers every minute. He was only saying what he could to get her to not go public, he was only backtracking to cover his butt. My compassion should only be for her and his family, period.

Not your bad, Tacenda..it is a good person that sits back and looks at all the angles.  I admire that.  There is just no excuse for anything like this in a church leadership position..I can't imagine how dangerous it is for all of us to be so trusting with out children/grand children.  Hugs!!

[bsjkki]

24 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Not your bad, Tacenda..it is a good person that sits back and looks at all the angles.  I admire that.  There is just no excuse for anything like this in a church leadership position..I can't imagine how dangerous it is for all of us to be so trusting with out children/grand children.  Hugs!!

Yes...it is naive to blindly trust your leaders and the sad thing is, the really bad ones are usually  the most adept at fooling people and manipulating them. I was recently in a meeting with other Primary Presidents. We have a rule about not having only one man teaching a class. The sad thing is--none of us believed any of our male teachers would ever harm a child or they would not be called to serve but many of us knew of instances of abuse at church. It is not easy to spot the predators so precautions must be taken. It is time to protect the children and the Bishops. We are in an era where one accusations can ruin a man--who would ever want to put themselves into this situation? Protections should be put in place for the benefit of everyone.  

Some of you are great historians. It has always bothered me that Lavina Anderson seems to have been excommunicated for compiling stories of abuse in the church. Or possibly for not stopping when told by church leaders. There could be more to this but that is what I understand happened. So, has this issue been studied? Should it be studied? is there any statistics or information we have about ecclesiastical abuse? How are changes to protect the innocent supposed to be put in place, if the issue has not been studied?

One more questions, do we, as members of the church who entrust our loved ones to Priesthood leaders, deserve to know the statistics involving ecclesiastical abuse?

Edited March 20, 2018 by bsjkki