Buzzfeed Article on Mormon Women Being Abused: I Got Some Questions

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Jeanne said:

I love these points that are raised here...so true..confidence and joyful celebration for all of a child's accomplishments..and not pitting one sibling against another..being equal in their values to the family.  Being firm yet supportive.  Now...all this is wonderful...and so going to a bishop at a young age or as a teenager would be so unnecessary...unless...as a family/individual with parents feel they would like the talk to the bishop...together. 

As I said, I think parents should prepare their children by instructing them what to expect in a worthiness interview. A good fifth Sunday discussion might be how such interviews should be conducted with youth. I believe worthiness interviews are important to teach accountability and repentance.

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

As I said, I think parents should prepare their children by instructing them what to expect in a worthiness interview. A good fifth Sunday discussion might be how such interviews should be conducted with youth. I believe worthiness interviews are important to teach accountability and repentance.

I agree this would be better ...I do...but don't think interviews are necessary outside the family..until adults in prep for missions etc.

[Rain]

6 hours ago, Jeanne said:

I was surprised that anyone would agree with me..but I think interviews for young people should come from the home first.  No real suggestions as I am not LDS and some of this is unnecessary to me...but keep note that I said "parents"...not just Father because he is a priesthood holder...but both parents and this will bring them closer together too.  Other than supper conversations..I wish that my husband and I would have had these kinds of talks with our own teenagers...be more engaged in their lives.  Hindsight...duh..it doesn't work does it??

I have mother/son time or mother/daughter time with my kids. We go out, get ice cream or fries and talk. Sometimes we get it in every week, other times not near so much. Very much worth it.

[Jeanne]

Just now, Rain said:

I have mother/son time or mother/daughter time with my kids. We go out, get ice cream or fries and talk. Sometimes we get it in every week, other times not near so much. Very much worth it.

Wonderful...I did things like this..but wish that I had done more.  Keep doing this!!

[Rain]

7 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Wonderful...I did things like this..but wish that I had done more.  Keep doing this!!

I think we all wish we could do that on so many things!

Edited February 22, 2018 by Rain

[Calm]

37 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I agree this would be better ...I do...but don't think interviews are necessary outside the family..until adults in prep for missions etc.

Part of adulthood is being able to deal with other adults, including those older than you.  Limiting meaningful individual interaction with adults other than parents is more likely, imo, to keep one thinking in parent-child ways.  Think of it like being taught how to work with money, budgeting, and all that, but never, ever being given actual control over any amount of money.  Textbook learning is not enough to be responsible for oneself, actual experience is necessary.

Talking one on one with bishops, teachers, etc. can help prepare a teen for job interviews when they are 16, interviews for college, etc.

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Part of adulthood is being able to deal with other adults, including those older than you.  Limiting meaningful individual interaction with adults other than parents is more likely, imo, to keep one thinking in parent-child ways.  Think of it like being taught how to work with money, budgeting, and all that, but never, ever being given actual control over any amount of money.  Textbook learning is not enough to be responsible for oneself, actual experience is necessary.

Talking one on one with bishops, teachers, etc. can help prepare a teen for job interviews when they are 16, interviews for college, etc.

Good points!!

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Wonderful...I did things like this..but wish that I had done more.  Keep doing this!!

We shouldn’t beat ourselves up. I think we do the best we know how.

[Tacenda]

Saw this today, I wonder why this happened. It makes it terribly difficult to trust any leader in the church behind closed doors. I couldn't find the thread about youth being interviewed behind closed doors, I thought there was one. But this thread seemed to be a long the same lines, where a person in authority can really mess someone up. I'm surprised that this woman going to someone in the higher up and her report not even taken seriously and the mission president not stopped. 

https://mormonleaks.io/wiki/index.php?title=File%t-Joseph_L_Bishop-Audio.mp3

https://mormonleaks.io/wiki/documents/f/fd/2017-Joseph_L_Bishop-Transcript.pdf

Edited March 19, 2018 by Tacenda

[Duncan]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Saw this today, I wonder why this happened. It makes it terribly difficult to trust any leader in the church behind closed doors. I couldn't find the thread about youth being interviewed behind closed doors, I thought there was one. But this thread seemed to be a long the same lines, where a person in authority can really mess someone up. I'm surprised that this woman going to someone in the higher up and her report not even taken seriously and the mission president not stopped. 

https://mormonleaks.io/wiki/index.php?title=File%t-Joseph_L_Bishop-Audio.mp3

https://mormonleaks.io/wiki/documents/f/fd/2017-Joseph_L_Bishop-Transcript.pdf

I read that as well, I used to have his book on being a missionary or preparing for a mission, something. I am sorry his life went south like that

[Tacenda]

4 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I read that as well, I used to have his book on being a missionary or preparing for a mission, something. I am sorry his life went south like that

I'm trying hard not to feel sorry for this man, he does appear to be so repentant. And he has children and grandchildren that will be affected by this. It sounds like she is going to take him to court. I'm torn by what this will do to his family and having justice served. Maybe if the church leaders had taken him out of the level of authority that he had then he would have not been in the situations he was in. But I still am shocked that the church didn't do a thing. It feels like a cover up to me. Hopefully the transparency out there will be get better and the church will step up to the plate and nip it in the bud and not let leaders continue leading when they've confessed and not coming down on them such as excommunicate them or dis-fellowship early. Why would the church not do this, is it because of the publicity that they are worrying about? Well, this will probably backfire now. 

I was torn about posting this, but I figure it's now out there all over the internet. Are other stories going to be coming out now? 

[Calm]

How old is he, anyone know?

[Duncan]

13 minutes ago, Calm said:

How old is he, anyone know?

85 ish? same age as my dad! it will be interesting to see what happens, if anything. I think she said she tried to have him killed or something too, which makes this whole thing even more of a mess

Edited March 19, 2018 by Duncan

[Tacenda]

39 minutes ago, Duncan said:

85 ish? same age as my dad! it will be interesting to see what happens, if anything. I think she said she tried to have him killed or something too, which makes this whole thing even more of a mess

I feel for this guy's family if this becomes public. I worry for them most of all. I feel for this woman and glad she got him to apologize, but still feel for his family.

[Duncan]

4 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I feel for this guy's family if this becomes public. I worry for them most of all. I feel for this woman and glad she got him to apologize, but still feel for his family.

true, she said about a not a great legacy or something

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

85 ish? same age as my dad! it will be interesting to see what happens, if anything. I think she said she tried to have him killed or something too, which makes this whole thing even more of a mess

I would be concerned about memory issues and ability to be pushed into saying things just to make the other happy given how my mom converses these days (she is 87) as well as many others I have known in their 80s.  She pretty much agrees with anything anyone says and then presents it as her own thought.  I have to be very neutral in how I describe something, though sometimes that is useless as she will simply latch on to the first option I say.  She can seem totally there too unless one has multiple exposures to her to realize what she says changes quite frequently...and she fully believes it is true when she says it even if it is the opposite of what she said last time or just an hour ago.

I remember one time a couple of years ago before I realized the extent of dementia where she insisted two phones were too much (one was supposed to be kept in a drawer in case the other was lost or broken, but she couldn't handle the idea of just letting it ring and so kept both in her bag which defeated the "lost" purpose for the most part) and a waste of money.  We drove to the phone store and turned one in.  As we were driving away, she said and I quote exactly "I wish I had two phones".  Seeing the phone sign as we drove away apparently triggered the desire for a phone.  She had completely spaced on the many conversations we had discussing this and what we had just done.  One of the first big clues of her issues.  No one would have known she had changed her mind unless they were involved in the previous conversations as she didn't know she had changed her mind.

I hope whatever happens, this is not just left as is, but it is made clear if he is competent or not at this point in terms of memory and not being led to admit things he made not have done and enough specifics are given so any woman who was harassed or abused if it happened can feel fully vindicated.  Unfortunately, if there is any dementia, this may not be possible.

Quote

I think she said she tried to have him killed or something too, which makes this whole thing even more of a mess

If she said this (I would need to read this myself to believe it), I have concerns about her own competency.

She did say it!

"I threatened to kill you in 2010.

Do you have some biker friends?
No, biker friends? God, no."

Why in the world is this woman talking to a man who molested her about the size of her breasts?  This is crazy!

Edited March 19, 2018 by Calm

[Tacenda]

I hope this will change people's minds that it isn't very safe to put individuals who've been abused in the wrong hands. In the transcript of the meeting between them it mentions that Dr. Bishop was trying to get funding for counseling for a sister missionary who needed help with suicidal thoughts but his higher up mention a talk by President Packer that a bishop should be the one to counsel individuals. It wasn't until the woman Dr. Bishop was trying to help almost jumped to her death that he was given funds so that she could see a counselor. 

Also, I'd like to change people's minds on here about youth or any age groups' meetings behind closed doors. I wonder how many have been abused by leaders but were afraid to rat on them in case it would hurt testimonies of those they knew. 

I have a feeling there is going to be an explosion of women that might come forth now if this case becomes public. Since this is someone so high up in the church with several missions etc. 

[cinepro]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

85 ish? same age as my dad! it will be interesting to see what happens, if anything. I think she said she tried to have him killed or something too, which makes this whole thing even more of a mess

Page 43, she says that in 2010, when the Church wouldn't give her any answers about whether or not they had followed up with this guy, she said she had a gun and would go kill him.

[cinepro]

25 minutes ago, Calm said:

She pretty much agrees with anything anyone says and then presents it as her own thought.  I have to be very neutral in how I describe something, though sometimes that is useless as she will simply latch on to the first option I say.  She can seem totally there too unless one has multiple exposures to her to realize what she says changes quite frequently...and she fully believes it is true when she says it even if it is the opposite of what she said last time or just an hour ago.

That must be tough. 

But on the plus side, it sounds like your mom is fully qualified to be the President of the United States.

Edited March 19, 2018 by cinepro

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I would be concerned about memory issues and ability to be pushed into saying things just to make the other happy given how my mom converses these days (she is 87) as well as many others I have known in their 80s.  She pretty much agrees with anything anyone says and then presents it as her own thought.  I have to be very neutral in how I describe something, though sometimes that is useless as she will simply latch on to the first option I say.  She can seem totally there too unless one has multiple exposures to her to realize what she says changes quite frequently...and she fully believes it is true when she says it even if it is the opposite of what she said last time or just an hour ago.

I remember one time a couple of years ago before I realized the extent of dementia where she insisted two phones were too much (one was supposed to be kept in a drawer in case the other was lost or broken, but she couldn't handle the idea of just letting it ring and so kept both in her bag which defeated the "lost" purpose for the most part) and a waste of money.  We drove to the phone store and turned one in.  As we were driving away, she said and I quote exactly "I wish I had two phones".  Seeing the phone sign as we drove away apparently triggered the desire for a phone.  She had completely spaced on the many conversations we had discussing this and what we had just done.  One of the first big clues of her issues.  No one would have known she had changed her mind unless they were involved in the previous conversations as she didn't know she had changed her mind.

I hope whatever happens, this is not just left as is, but it is made clear if he is competent or not at this point in terms of memory and not being led to admit things he made not have done and enough specifics are given so any woman who was harassed or abused if it happened can feel fully vindicated.  Unfortunately, if there is any dementia, this may not be possible.

If she said this (I would need to read this myself to believe it), I have concerns about her own competency.

Have you read the transcript, I know you prefer that to listening, or is that someone else? In the transcript she does mention she called the church and threatened to kill him herself. And the police showed up, but still nothing was done. She just wanted the church to tell her what they were doing about his abuse. She would have loved to hear anything, such as that he would have to go to a "council" or something, her word. 

I also, wonder about dementia, but if you listen he was very well spoken and seemed to have a clear mind. And he remembers her and other women he's harmed, but doesn't go into detail. I think he buried it deep. I wish he had gotten help several years before. He's been holding this in for so long. Too bad the bishops or stake presidents, even Elder Well's had done something to curb the callings he had until he'd fully repented through a court or something. I feel for this man, he is an admitted predator and a sexual addict. But was given these callings over and over despite the confessions. But was never reprimanded for them. What a load to carry. I was so impressed that he would try to put her first and took all the blame, which he should. He did seem very sorry, and sounds like he wants to go to the bishop once more and fully confess everything. ETA: Ran out of limited posts. Jeanne, I know it's pretty sad that I actually feel sorry for this man. I guess I am one to punish myself for even the silliest things I've done wrong, so I guess if I had this guy's guilt I'd probably have killed myself. I know I probably shouldn't feel for anyone that did such things. But still do, weird I know. Even when I've been an innocent victim of some predators, nothing really horrible, but it may have changed how I could have been in life, had it not happened to me just like this woman and her lack of trust for any man. So maybe I should back track, and really just feel for the family in his life that this info will devastate and possibly change how they view themselves and their heritage.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Tacenda

[Calm]

22 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I hope this will change people's minds that it isn't very safe to put individuals who've been abused in the wrong hands. In the transcript of the meeting between them it mentions that Dr. Bishop was trying to get funding for counseling for a sister missionary who needed help with suicidal thoughts but his higher up mention a talk by President Packer that a bishop should be the one to counsel individuals. It wasn't until the woman Dr. Bishop was trying to help almost jumped to her death that he was given funds so that she could see a counselor. 

Also, I'd like to change people's minds on here about youth or any age groups' meetings behind closed doors. I wonder how many have been abused by leaders but were afraid to rat on them in case it would hurt testimonies of those they knew. 

I have a feeling there is going to be an explosion of women that might come forth now if this case becomes public. Since this is someone so high up in the church with several missions etc. 

This was awhile ago, so it may be possible better procedures are already in place.

He did talk about having an addiction and it didn't seem to be prompted (I only read a little).

At this point, I would say it needs to be fully investigated, preferably by professionals including law enforcement.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Have you read the transcript, I know you prefer that to listening, or is that someone else? In the transcript she does mention she called the church and threatened to kill him herself. And the police showed up, but still nothing was done. 

I can't read more than just the short bit I did around the killing threat today.

My mother sounds well composed, well spoken, and aware unless she is tired.  She can discuss books she has read in detail, unless one pays attention, it can be easy to miss much of what she says is repeating what she just heard. She also has a lot of humor.  Dementia is not always easy to spot.

Quote

But was given these callings over and over despite the confessions. But was never reprimanded for them.

It is possible if there is dementia he is misremembering and instead creating much content based on how he wished it had happened...if he confessed and was still place in positions of trust, it is others' fault as well as his own, he doesn't have to feel alone in responsibility for his sins.

If it did happen that way, I hope changes have been made and think it is likely they have been if only for the legal liability...but I suspect awareness of addiction has also grown and so procedures reflect that as well.

If they haven't changed, this may do it.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Calm

[Jeanne]

I could not finish...so sick to my stomach..you see. ..no matter how much compassion I have for this man or his victims...My Father In Heaven saw this..He let it be..and yet set another position for him to be responsible for...I am so sorry for these women..for HIS family..but Tacenda..I have no compassion for this man.

[Calm]

20 minutes ago, cinepro said:

That must be tough. 

But on the plus side, it sounds like your mom is fully qualified to be the President of the United States.

I needed that, thanks.

[CA Steve]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

How old is he, anyone know?

8  years younger than the prophet.

Edited March 19, 2018 by CA Steve