Rob Porter, and Mormonism's #MeToo Moment

[bluebell]

44 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

I am familiar with repentance.  It may be that we should start wearing scarlet letters identifying everyone by their sins in an effort to protect society and protect individuals from the bad people among us.  As long as everyone meets the same standard and everyone is identified by their sins then I can support it.  What I cannot support is the hypocrisy of society by only identifying a few select sins, completely destroying the lives of those individuals, and then patting one another on the back that they did the good deed and got the "real" sinner and now all is well. 

An aside, in that context being stoned should be recognized as hyperbole.  

Our society already does identify people according to their crimes (and spousal abuse is a crime).  I don't think that all crimes should be life sentences, but if the criminal refuses to confess, stop, or repent, then why shouldn't the consequences of their crimes follow them through life?

[Storm Rider]

19 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don't understand calling spousal abuse a 'character flaw.'  Do you consider rape, murder, robbery, etc. character flaws as well?

Yes, I think all sins come from deficits in our character - there is something wrong in that individual that makes them think that their choice is acceptable.  Do you see these actions not reflective of something wrong in the individual?  Or do you think they come from something else?

[Storm Rider]

10 hours ago, bluebell said:

Our society already does identify people according to their crimes (and spousal abuse is a crime).  I don't think that all crimes should be life sentences, but if the criminal refuses to confess, stop, or repent, then why shouldn't the consequences of their crimes follow them through life?

Bluebell, I think I have said that if that is the choice of society then I can support it as long as every crime, every sin, is printed on everyone's forehead so that we all know with whom we are dealing all the time.  Our criminal justice system is not based on repentance, per se, or even confession.  Too often individuals go to court, plead innocent, are found guilty, go to prison and serve their term and then are released without ever feeling sorrow for their actions or admitting their guilt.  However, society deems that they have paid their debt to society and walk free.  

How many sins or crimes go unpunished?  I think you are conflating how society punishes crimes and how the gospel teaches repentance.

Again, I don't have a problem with any standard that is drawn up - I just want every citizen to be judged by the same standard.  

Edited February 12, 2018 by Storm Rider

[CA Steve]

2 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

An aside, in that context being stoned should be recognized as hyperbole.  

You passed hyperbole when you invoked Goodwin

[bcuzbcuz]

24 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Bluebell, I think I have said that if that is the choice of society then I can support it as long as every crime, every sin, is printed on everyone's forehead so that we all know with whom we are dealing all the time.  Our criminal justice system does is not based on repentance, per se, or even confession.  Too often individuals go to court, plead innocent, are found guilty, go to prison and serve their term and then are released without ever feeling sorrow for their actions or admitting their guilt.  However, society deems that they have paid their debt to society and walk free.  

How many sins or crimes go unpunished?  I think you are conflating how society punishes crimes and how the gospel teaches repentance.

Again, I don't have a problem with any standard that is drawn up - I just want every citizen to live by the same standard.  

Every crime, every sin? Sorry, you’re living on the wrong planet. We do not live in a fair nor equal, nor just world. A quick look at history shows that many crimes go undisclosed, unpunished. 

[stemelbow]

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

Our society already does identify people according to their crimes (and spousal abuse is a crime).  I don't think that all crimes should be life sentences, but if the criminal refuses to confess, stop, or repent, then why shouldn't the consequences of their crimes follow them through life?

I can see some reasoning to this thinking if we say “ stop”, but I’d be beyond disgusted if we applied this for confess “or” repent.  Way too subjective and judgmental a line for my tastes.  In fact I’d say because you said “or” for each of those three I’d say I adamantly oppose your position here and I’d have to say it’d be the complete ruin of society if we applied that type of standard on each other.  Of course there are exceptions though.  Child abuse is one.  Spousal abuse I’m less eager to support even though the notion of it makes my blood boil.  

 

[Jeanne]

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

Our society already does identify people according to their crimes (and spousal abuse is a crime).  I don't think that all crimes should be life sentences, but if the criminal refuses to confess, stop, or repent, then why shouldn't the consequences of their crimes follow them through life?

I agree Bluebell...but you know...even if one is not jailed for a very long time...something like this will and should follow him all his days. I think what I am saying is should one confess, stop and/or repent...a second chance is always welcomed..but it won't.  It will follow them forever.  This is why God's judgment is different than laws and judgement of men.  This makes the atonement their only saving grace.

Edited February 11, 2018 by Jeanne

[Storm Rider]

7 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

Every crime, every sin? Sorry, you’re living on the wrong planet. We do not live in a fair nor equal, nor just world. A quick look at history shows that many crimes go undisclosed, unpunished. 

I think we are talking past one another.  Cheers

[cipriano]

I think everybody is avoiding the strange point in this story. Lifelong LDS in his mid 30's and he already has two divorces under his belt?!?! I don't judge divorcees, as that is an outdated mindset, but that is just a red flag if I ever saw one!

[Storm Rider]

25 minutes ago, cipriano said:

I think everybody is avoiding the strange point in this story. Lifelong LDS in his mid 30's and he already has two divorces under his belt?!?! I don't judge divorcees, as that is an outdated mindset, but that is just a red flag if I ever saw one!

I think it may be a red flag, but in today's world I find LDS are just as prone to second marriages as the society at large.  Though I have only been married once and remain married to my wife I know we have several individuals on the Board that have been married twice.  I think "red flag" might be too strong; maybe when we learn the entire picture we see that it fits with an individual that abuses their spouse.  

[Calm]

SR, Second marriages aren't uncommon, but not sure about two divorces.

Edited February 12, 2018 by Calm

[Storm Rider]

10 minutes ago, Calm said:

SR, Second marriages aren't uncommon, but not sure about two divorces.

Much, much better clarification!

 

[Stargazer]

On 2/10/2018 at 9:22 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

It works well for me on Google Chrome.  Maybe your browser is the problem, or your sound is turned off.

I was using Google Chrome -- and other videos had audio.  Oh, well, maybe it's me.

[hope_for_things]

On 2/9/2018 at 7:40 PM, CA Steve said:

This has been picked up by various new outlets. WaPo, SLC Trib and now CNN.

Rob Porter, and Mormonism's #MeToo Moment on CNN

From the article.

 The recent spate of threads on Bishop's interviews have peripherally touched on this subject. 

Maybe it's time to consider that bishops, for all their good intentions are not in a position to be a counselor in all matters. I have anecdotal experience where the same sort of responses these women were given, were also given to women I know. Where bishops encouraged the women to stay in abusive relationships. Am I judging all bishops by this? No, but should bishops even be put in a position where they have to advise abused spouses on how to proceed? It is my opinion that the moment a bishop suspects a woman has been abused or when a woman brings such an accusation to him, he needs to recuse himself from the situation and advise the parties to get professional help. If he suspects physical abuse happens then it needs to be reported to the authorities.

Another thing that I believe would help in this, and its related to this subject.  The results of the recent BYU sexual assault study that they recently conducted showed a behavior that contributes to this issue around reporting things to bishops.  Students who had been sexually assaulted were overwhelmingly most likely to report this to their ecclesiastical leaders.  Look at this graph below.  Mormons have essentially been trained to trust LDS lay leaders with issues like this, over all other avenues of reporting.  

There is an expectation that untrained church leaders know how to handle these sensitive situations.  This expectation has been cultivated by the church leaders and the culture of Mormonism.  If this doesn't change, then we'll continue to see incidents like with Rob Porter, where LDS leaders are giving out their untrained bad advice on a regular basis.  

 

http://universe.byu.edu/2017/11/16/byu-releases-results-of-sexual-assault-campus-climate-survey/

[CA Steve]

21 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Another thing that I believe would help in this, and its related to this subject.  The results of the recent BYU sexual assault study that they recently conducted showed a behavior that contributes to this issue around reporting things to bishops.  Students who had been sexually assaulted were overwhelmingly most likely to report this to their ecclesiastical leaders.  Look at this graph below.  Mormons have essentially been trained to trust LDS lay leaders with issues like this, over all other avenues of reporting.  

There is an expectation that untrained church leaders know how to handle these sensitive situations.  This expectation has been cultivated by the church leaders and the culture of Mormonism.  If this doesn't change, then we'll continue to see incidents like with Rob Porter, where LDS leaders are giving out their untrained bad advice on a regular basis.  

 

http://universe.byu.edu/2017/11/16/byu-releases-results-of-sexual-assault-campus-climate-survey/

You graph perfectly illustrates the problem that  Porter's ex explained  in her interview with CNN. A problem that is part of our larger culture. What is most glaring in that graph is the bottom number, in which 64% of incidents are not even reported. Porter's ex explained she herself did not know how to communicate clearly to her LDS leadership what was going on, so the problem is two sided. You have a potential victim unable to clearly explain her situation to an untrained male leader whose culture and background make it hard for him to accept and understand what is going on.

Before the #metoo hit full bore, my wife and I discussed the Taylor Swift lawsuit against a local DJ she accused of groping her. The incident happened when they were being photographed together and the DJ grabbed her butt during the shoot. The was not clear evidence, in my opinion that it happened, and I sided with the DJ because I could not fathom why someone would risk his entire career just to grab a famous star's backside. It just didn't make sense to me. Fast forward a few Weinstein moments along with Trump and dozens of other public figures getting accused of doing the same or worse and I have come to believe that this happens a lot more than I initially was willing to believe. Btw I don't want to get dragged into Storm Riders horrible defense of the accused here. I do not believe that all accusations are true and I do believe many may be exaggerated. My point here is that I also believe it happens a lot more than I thought it did, and that is my point, a point that is born out by the graph above showing that 64% are never even reported at BYU of all places.

 

We have a cultural problem here that is exacerbated by institutions traditionally led by men.

 

[USU78]

30 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

We have a cultural problem here that is exacerbated by institutions traditionally led by men.

I was with you until the last sentence, all except for the gratuitous slam on SR.

Say what?

Edited February 12, 2018 by USU78

[smac97]

25 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

You graph perfectly illustrates the problem that  Porter's ex explained  in her interview with CNN. A problem that is part of our larger culture. What is most glaring in that graph is the bottom number, in which 64% of incidents are not even reported.

I wonder if you are mis-reading the bar graph.  The 64% pertains to incidents not involving the categories otherwise listed.  In other words, 64% of the reported incidents.

That is not to say that some appreciable number of incidents is not reported, only that such a number is not provided in the data.

25 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

Porter's ex explained she herself did not know how to communicate clearly to her LDS leadership what was going on, so the problem is two sided.

Hmm.  I think physical abuse is quite a bit easier to quantify, and therefore report, than verbal/emotional abuse.  Perhaps a bishop could ask questions like these (outside the presence of the spouse, of course):

• "Is your spouse physically abusive toward you?"
• "Has your spouse ever intentionally caused you physical injury?"
• "Has your spouse ever threatened to cause you physical injury?"
• "Has your spouse ever grabbed or hit you or thrown something at you in anger?"

An affirmative answer to any of these questions would seem clarify whether there is a problem of physical abuse.  Laying the foundation for these sorts of questions can be delicate.  But if handled with tact and decorum, it's possible.

However, even then there may be problems of non-reporting.  Lots of people are reluctant, for various reasons, to report physical abuse.  It's not a problem limited to Mormons, by any stretch.

25 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

You have a potential victim unable to clearly explain her situation to an untrained male leader whose culture and background make it hard for him to accept and understand what is going on.

I don't understand this.  What "culture and background" inhibit a bishop's ability "to accept and understand what is going on?"

25 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

We have a cultural problem here that is exacerbated by institutions traditionally led by men.

The men-are-always-the-perpetrators-of-violence/harassment/abuse-and-women-are-always-the-victims narrative does not seem to stand up very well:

• When Men Are Raped: A new study reveals that men are often the victims of sexual assault, and women are often the perpetrators.
• Sexual Victimization by Women Is More Common Than Previously Known: A new study gives a portrait of female perpetrators
• A growing number of men report being sexually harassed in the workplace, by both male and female co-workers and managers.
• Male Victims Of Sexual Harassment Are Suffering In Silence
• Books of The Times; Sex, Power and a Workplace Reversal

From the last link (published in 1994!):

Quote

If you think Japan got a bashing in Michael Crichton's "Rising Sun," just wait till you see what happens to the cause of equal opportunity in his clever new novel, "Disclosure," about a sexual-harassment suit.

...

Meanwhile, Mr. Crichton seems to remain above such flinging around of raw meat. He is too busy lecturing on the true meaning of his subject. "Sexual harassment is about power," says the lawyer whom Tom hires, Louise Fernandez, "and so is the company's resistance to dealing with it. Power protects power. And once a woman gets up in the power structure, she'll be protected by the structure, the same as a man."

The author wants us to know that while only 5 percent of sexual harassment suits are brought by men against women, only 5 percent of corporate supervisors are women. As Ms. Fernandez concludes: "So the figures suggest that women executives harass men in the same proportion as men harass women. And as more women get corporate jobs, the percentage of claims by men is going up. Because the fact is, harassment is a power issue. And power is neither male nor female."

"Harassment is a power issue.  And power is neither male nor female."

Yep.  It's a human failing to misuse power.

Thanks,

-Smac

[hope_for_things]

47 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

You graph perfectly illustrates the problem that  Porter's ex explained  in her interview with CNN. A problem that is part of our larger culture. What is most glaring in that graph is the bottom number, in which 64% of incidents are not even reported. Porter's ex explained she herself did not know how to communicate clearly to her LDS leadership what was going on, so the problem is two sided. You have a potential victim unable to clearly explain her situation to an untrained male leader whose culture and background make it hard for him to accept and understand what is going on.

Before the #metoo hit full bore, my wife and I discussed the Taylor Swift lawsuit against a local DJ she accused of groping her. The incident happened when they were being photographed together and the DJ grabbed her butt during the shoot. The was not clear evidence, in my opinion that it happened, and I sided with the DJ because I could not fathom why someone would risk his entire career just to grab a famous star's backside. It just didn't make sense to me. Fast forward a few Weinstein moments along with Trump and dozens of other public figures getting accused of doing the same or worse and I have come to believe that this happens a lot more than I initially was willing to believe. Btw I don't want to get dragged into Storm Riders horrible defense of the accused here. I do not believe that all accusations are true and I do believe many may be exaggerated. My point here is that I also believe it happens a lot more than I thought it did, and that is my point, a point that is born out by the graph above showing that 64% are never even reported at BYU of all places.

 

We have a cultural problem here that is exacerbated by institutions traditionally led by men.

 

Thanks, I agree with you and appreciate the honesty on how your personal perspective has evolved on this issue.  I also agree that the 64% that don't report is a huge problem in our overall culture, and I'm hopeful that the metoo movement is helping to change this. 

I also think the church needs to change the expectations around what members ought to discuss with a bishop, and to also have some frank conversations about consent and what it is.  Abuse of all kinds should receive the strongest of condemnation, and it shouldn't all just be lumped into this category of sexual transgression.  Abuse is illegal and in various forms so much worse than consensual sex between adults.  The two things shouldn't ever be conflated.  

[aussieguy55]

For sixteen years we had 2 Presidents who loved and respected their wives with nothing of a scandal.  

[hope_for_things]

Another news story related to this topic.  Is anyone surprised by this?  I'm not surprised at all, but wondering if others find these examples believable from their experiences in the church.  Here is a quote from the story:

Quote

BuzzFeed News spoke with more than 20 current and former female members of the LDS church from seven states for this story, all of whom said that they had experienced domestic abuse and then gone to their clergy for help. In most cases, those leaders were bishops, roughly the LDS equivalent of pastors who serve on a volunteer basis. Bishops are drawn from the church's lay priesthood, are all men, and serve for several years while maintaining jobs, families, and any other personal commitments.

In response to their requests for guidance, the women said, they were told by their bishops to stay in abusive relationships, that their eternal salvation could be jeopardized by leaving violent partners, and that they were to blame for their marital problems. Though some reported positive experiences with church leaders, every woman who spoke with BuzzFeed News for this story said there are widespread inadequacies in the way local Mormon leaders handle reports of abuse and domestic violence.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jimdalrympleii/in-the-wake-of-rob-porter-allegations-mormon-women-say?utm_term=.nvk9p2D8z#.yrn091wDM

[Tacenda]

22 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Another news story related to this topic.  Is anyone surprised by this?  I'm not surprised at all, but wondering if others find these examples believable from their experiences in the church.  Here is a quote from the story:

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jimdalrympleii/in-the-wake-of-rob-porter-allegations-mormon-women-say?utm_term=.nvk9p2D8z#.yrn091wDM

This quote is very alarming. Wow, can the church please get something done by way of the training of bishops out there??!!!

“As a prosecutor I have seen bishops many times come in and speak on behalf on defendants,” she said. “I have never seen one talk in support of victims. Never in 26 years.”

[Calm]

I do not doubt this happens though I have no clue about the frequency and hope it is low.

It is also possible in a large or small percentage of cases where women believe they were told to stay, they misinterpreted the counsel or they weren't clear about the abuse so the leader was counseling what they saw as a troubled, but not dangerous situation.  Jennifer Willoughby is an excellent example of someone who was unable to make it clear how abusive or even if it was abusive at the beginning of her seeking help if I understand her story correctly (since the bishop advised her getting a restraining order, it sounds like he understood at some point) and she is an extremely articulate woman.

I believe better training is needed to ensure if there is an abusive situation, it is more likely to be recognized and in places where counseling is available, recommendations for counseling should be automatic though the victim may refuse, of course (and may not think of it as refusing when looking back, but just expressing fear).  There are places (the Church is worldwide after all)  where counseling or abuse centers are not available and possibly law enforcement is lacking as well.  There may be different cultural requirements there, hopefully the Church includes training on this.  

In Sharon Eubank's talk, "This is a Woman's Church", the woman who led to the title was commenting on how the priesthood leaders were teaching the men not to beat their wives, so I believe the Church is more active where this is a more common cultural issue.

Quote

I am going to tell you a story, and it actually happened to Lillian DeLong, a friend of mine. She served on a Relief Society board years ago. And she was assigned to go to Ghana. And she had her husband with her. And they were in a very rural part of Ghana. So, they did their training. She was there to do Relief Society Training. And it is a very simple structure and they were in different rooms, and her husband was in Priesthood and she was in Relief Society and they did their training. After it was over, a woman came up to her, in her beautiful Ghanaian church dress, and she shook her hand and she kept saying “This is a woman’s church.” She’s just crying and tears are just streaming down her face. She kept saying, “This is a woman’s church.” Lillian didn’t really know what she was talking about. And she’s smiling and saying, “Yeah.” But the woman just kept pumping her hand and saying over and over again, “This is a woman’s church.” And finally Lillian said, “What do you mean, ‘This is a woman’s church?’” And she said, “We have just been in the marvelous Relief Society that teaches us not only spiritual things but temporal things about how to make our lives and our children and our families better. And at the same time your husband is in the Priesthood room and he is teaching our husbands that the culture of the church does not allow for them to beat their wives and their children.”

https://www.fairmormon.org/conference/august-2014/womans-church

[Calm]

On 2018-02-13 at 4:33 PM, Tacenda said:

This quote is very alarming. Wow, can the church please get something done by way of the training of bishops out there??!!!

“As a prosecutor I have seen bishops many times come in and speak on behalf on defendants,” she said. “I have never seen one talk in support of victims. Never in 26 years.”

Victims are not on trial (technically speaking), so isn't it the prosecutors' responsibility to seek out witnesses?  If bishops are not coming forward, that may be because they can only be used as character witnesses and prosecutors don't see the need while defense attorneys do.  Unless bishops are witnesses to the actual abuse, all they can do is report what the victim told them and the victim can report that themselves.

So before getting upset by this, I would have to know how many were asked to do either.

PS:  a lawyer friend says bishops would be very unlikely to be called during the main trial where guilt is established (in their capacity as bishops; if they witnessed abuse that would be different); they might speak during sentencing to help determine impact of the abuse of the victims, but concerns over breach of confidentially for the victim or abuser probably discourage this.

Edited February 15, 2018 by Calm

[Duncan]

22 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Another news story related to this topic.  Is anyone surprised by this?  I'm not surprised at all, but wondering if others find these examples believable from their experiences in the church.  Here is a quote from the story:

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jimdalrympleii/in-the-wake-of-rob-porter-allegations-mormon-women-say?utm_term=.nvk9p2D8z#.yrn091wDM

in my limited experience, I know one couple she went to the Stake with it and she got shut down from them, one young couple went to the Bishop but regardless of what he said they divorced. One couple now , it's emotional abuse and they have been on again and off again since like 2003 when they got married. Why they got married and stay married is a mystery, they would solve all their problem by divorcing, he's unkind to her, not physically but emotionally and who knows what else but the Bishop can't recommend divorce and so she is stuck. She told me this is what she signed up for, like no you didn't, at all. I don't know what the Bishop's involvement is in that marriage but it doesn't seem to be working out. I've seen the Rob Porter's in the Church, I totally believe when people say that their Bishop's or whoever don't believe them, as i've seen it before and can see how it would continue to happen

[clarkgoble]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

Another news story related to this topic.  Is anyone surprised by this?  I'm not surprised at all, but wondering if others find these examples believable from their experiences in the church.  Here is a quote from the story:

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jimdalrympleii/in-the-wake-of-rob-porter-allegations-mormon-women-say?utm_term=.nvk9p2D8z#.yrn091wDM

I'm not surprised they could find 20 people. That doesn't give us an indication of how common it is. The big problem as Jana Reiss mentioned in her article on the topic is how many Bishops aren't even aware of the Church training videos and so forth. While she just hinted at it, I halfway wonder if they shouldn't call the new Bishop a few months before he's made Bishop and have classes (even if only online) training them. Otherwise new Bishops are learning by getting thrown in the deep end.

I think the Church hasn't gotten much better over the past decades. I think that particularly under Pres. Monson this has been a big push for training. However part of the problem also is that you have people who have to use their best judgement. Most people are not, I suspect, prepared to discover what lurks under the veneer of their ward.

Edited February 14, 2018 by clarkgoble