Popular Post jkwilliams Posted December 18, 2017 Author Popular Post Posted December 18, 2017 5 minutes ago, ALarson said: Yes, part of what they teach are the steps necessary for repentance. But they shouldn't go to dinner at a member's home as a guest and call this member to repentance (and assume they have a "worthiness issue"). That is not their place. On my mission, I was in a branch where there were 250 members on the records but only 3 active members. We tried to find all these members. When we did meet them, we just asked them to tell us about how they joined the church. They always had a positive and often emotional story to tell. Then we would say we hoped they would come to church and feel that way again. That approach worked very well. 6
kiwi57 Posted December 18, 2017 Posted December 18, 2017 1 hour ago, jkwilliams said: Saturday night the missionaries came for dinner. We have fed many companionships over the years, and I’ve always bitten my tongue and said nothing about my issues with the church. Part of it is that I haven’t wanted to upset my wife, but I also just don’t want to get into it with strangers. It’s been difficult sometimes, as I’ve had to sit silently being lectured by a kid about how obviously I have worthiness issues, etc. Last night the subject came up, and I remembered Scott Lloyd’s signature about preferring anti-Mormons straight up. So, I simply said I don’t believe, making it kind of pointless for me to attend. After a few moments of awkward silence, we went back to talking about where they come from and other safe subjects. It went well, but I still wonder if it’s the right thing for an apostate to be so blunt with the missionaries. I’m not asking for approval or comment on me personally, but what is the proper etiquette? Is it bad form to speak up or to shut up? Actually, it sounds like you handled it rather well. 3
ALarson Posted December 18, 2017 Posted December 18, 2017 1 minute ago, jkwilliams said: On my mission, I was in a branch where there were 250 members on the records but only 3 active members. We tried to find all these members. When we did meet them, we just asked them to tell us about how they joined the church. They always had a positive and often emotional story to tell. Then we would say we hoped they would come to church and feel that way again. That approach worked very well. Exactly. But I'm sure that judging them and calling them to repentance wouldn't have worked so well.
Scott Lloyd Posted December 18, 2017 Posted December 18, 2017 1 hour ago, jkwilliams said: Saturday night the missionaries came for dinner. We have fed many companionships over the years, and I’ve always bitten my tongue and said nothing about my issues with the church. Part of it is that I haven’t wanted to upset my wife, but I also just don’t want to get into it with strangers. It’s been difficult sometimes, as I’ve had to sit silently being lectured by a kid about how obviously I have worthiness issues, etc. Last night the subject came up, and I remembered Scott Lloyd’s signature about preferring anti-Mormons straight up. So, I simply said I don’t believe, making it kind of pointless for me to attend. After a few moments of awkward silence, we went back to talking about where they come from and other safe subjects. It went well, but I still wonder if it’s the right thing for an apostate to be so blunt with the missionaries. I’m not asking for approval or comment on me personally, but what is the proper etiquette? Is it bad form to speak up or to shut up? I have to say your behavior is not nearly as appalling as a missionary presuming to lecture his host about that host's "worthiness issues." Before my son's recent return from his mission, he would have me send him regular installments of excerpts from How to Win Friends and Influence People. It would seem this elder could use a similar favor. I'm trying to imagine how this might have come up in conversation, but I'm drawing a blank.
ksfisher Posted December 18, 2017 Posted December 18, 2017 1 minute ago, jkwilliams said: Then we would say we hoped they would come to church and feel that way again. That approach worked very well. You were asking them to change, or in other words repent. The way you describe it makes it sound like it would be very successful.
CA Steve Posted December 18, 2017 Posted December 18, 2017 44 minutes ago, ksfisher said: I almost agree, except that one of the responsibilities of a missionary is to call people to repentance. I am not sure exactly what you are proposing here. Are you suggesting that a 18-19 year old boy who has been invited to dinner to the house of an inactive member should spend time at that dinner trying to convince his host he should repent? If as you suggest, it part of the missionaries responsibility to call people to repentance, certainly there are more appropriate ways and times to do such a thing than during a dinner provided by someone else.
jkwilliams Posted December 18, 2017 Author Posted December 18, 2017 6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I have to say your behavior is not nearly as appalling as a missionary presuming to lecture his host about that host's "worthiness issues." Before my son's recent return from his mission, he would have me send him regular installments of excerpts from How to Win Friends and Influence People. It would seem this elder could use a similar favor. I'm trying to imagine how this might have come up in conversation, but I'm drawing a blank. It’s happened maybe 4 times in the last 7 years or so. The last time it happened, last spring I think, it was the punch line of a “spiritual thought” about humbling yourself and having faith in the Savior. My son said he was surprised I didn’t throw them out. I just thanked them for their message. Again, it’s more concern for my wife. We’re in a good place regarding our religious differences, and I think she worries that an overzealous missionary might open old wounds. I have friends who have been treated far worse. It takes a lot to offend me, at least when I’m not on a message board. 😀 1
jkwilliams Posted December 18, 2017 Author Posted December 18, 2017 11 minutes ago, ksfisher said: You were asking them to change, or in other words repent. The way you describe it makes it sound like it would be very successful. But I wasn’t a dinner guest.
jkwilliams Posted December 18, 2017 Author Posted December 18, 2017 21 minutes ago, kiwi57 said: Actually, it sounds like you handled it rather well. I can die a happy man. Merry Christmas! 1
Robert F. Smith Posted December 18, 2017 Posted December 18, 2017 1 hour ago, jkwilliams said: Saturday night the missionaries came for dinner. We have fed many companionships over the years, and I’ve always bitten my tongue and said nothing about my issues with the church. Part of it is that I haven’t wanted to upset my wife, but I also just don’t want to get into it with strangers. It’s been difficult sometimes, as I’ve had to sit silently being lectured by a kid about how obviously I have worthiness issues, etc. Last night the subject came up, and I remembered Scott Lloyd’s signature about preferring anti-Mormons straight up. So, I simply said I don’t believe, making it kind of pointless for me to attend. After a few moments of awkward silence, we went back to talking about where they come from and other safe subjects. It went well, but I still wonder if it’s the right thing for an apostate to be so blunt with the missionaries. I’m not asking for approval or comment on me personally, but what is the proper etiquette? Is it bad form to speak up or to shut up? It depends on the situation, John, and only you are the best judge of what is called for in such a situation. The elders need to learn to role with the punches. You have been there, and have even written an informative book on the subject. Sometimes story-telling might be the best way to deal with variant opinions, and there are probably a great many other ways in which an urbane gentleman like yourself can keep the conversation interesting and friendly at the same time. Anyhow that is how I tend to handle occasions when those present obviously come from a very different place (religiously, politically, etc.) than me -- which is quite often.
ksfisher Posted December 18, 2017 Posted December 18, 2017 14 minutes ago, CA Steve said: I am not sure exactly what you are proposing here. Are you suggesting that a 18-19 year old boy who has been invited to dinner to the house of an inactive member should spend time at that dinner trying to convince his host he should repent? If as you suggest, it part of the missionaries responsibility to call people to repentance, certainly there are more appropriate ways and times to do such a thing than during a dinner provided by someone else. Like I keep saying, things can be done in a nice way.
jkwilliams Posted December 18, 2017 Author Posted December 18, 2017 2 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: It depends on the situation, John, and only you are the best judge of what is called for in such a situation. The elders need to learn to role with the punches. You have been there, and have even written an informative book on the subject. Sometimes story-telling might be the best way to deal with variant opinions, and there are probably a great many other ways in which an urbane gentleman like yourself can keep the conversation interesting and friendly at the same time. Anyhow that is how I tend to handle occasions when those present obviously come from a very different place (religiously, politically, etc.) than me -- which is quite often. It’s always been friendly with the missionaries, even when things have been awkward. My wife and I have a soft spot for them. But seriously, you lost me at “urbane gentleman.” 😂 1
filovirus Posted December 19, 2017 Posted December 19, 2017 I've been the Ward Mission Leader going on 4 years. We have a few members of the ward in a similar situation in that they don't believe the teaching anymore. And like clockwork, every time we have a missionary change, they always ask me about them. I tell them frankly what I know of their situation (as long as it's not confidential). I let them know other missionaries have tried reaching out without much success. I tell them they should stop by, introduce themselves, and ask if they would like to retake the missionary lessons. I then let the missionaries know that they have free agency and can say either yes or no, but to never force the issue. These members know how to reconnect with the church if they want, and would probably approach the bishop about how to return to activity if they want. But I am a firm believer that having more opportunities to return to church is better, so I never discourage the missionaries from visiting. The age old adage rings true a lot: "Out of sight, out of mind." If there is no contact from the church with these members, they won't give the church a second thought. So sorry jkwilliams and Jeanne, but if you were in my ward the missionaries would stop by 3-4 times a year just to say "hi". We also let these members know that if they don't want continued visits, a simple letter asking to remove their name is all we need.
jkwilliams Posted December 19, 2017 Author Posted December 19, 2017 Just now, filovirus said: I've been the Ward Mission Leader going on 4 years. We have a few members of the ward in a similar situation in that they don't believe the teaching anymore. And like clockwork, every time we have a missionary change, they always ask me about them. I tell them frankly what I know of their situation (as long as it's not confidential). I let them know other missionaries have tried reaching out without much success. I tell them they should stop by, introduce themselves, and ask if they would like to retake the missionary lessons. I then let the missionaries know that they have free agency and can say either yes or no, but to never force the issue. These members know how to reconnect with the church if they want, and would probably approach the bishop about how to return to activity if they want. But I am a firm believer that having more opportunities to return to church is better, so I never discourage the missionaries from visiting. The age old adage rings true a lot: "Out of sight, out of mind." If there is no contact from the church with these members, they won't give the church a second thought. So sorry jkwilliams and Jeanne, but if you were in my ward the missionaries would stop by 3-4 times a year just to say "hi". We also let these members know that if they don't want continued visits, a simple letter asking to remove their name is all we need. I don’t have a problem with them visiting. After all, we invited them over for dinner. Apparently they don’t get fed much, so we want to make sure they are taken care of. If they want to drop by and encourage me to come back, that’s fine. A dinner appointment may not be the best time to do that.
Exiled Posted December 19, 2017 Posted December 19, 2017 Just curious if you would feel more at ease in these situations if your wife wasn't still a believer?
smac97 Posted December 19, 2017 Posted December 19, 2017 3 hours ago, jkwilliams said: Saturday night the missionaries came for dinner. We have fed many companionships over the years, and I’ve always bitten my tongue and said nothing about my issues with the church. Part of it is that I haven’t wanted to upset my wife, but I also just don’t want to get into it with strangers. It’s been difficult sometimes, as I’ve had to sit silently being lectured by a kid about how obviously I have worthiness issues, etc. I think it is wholly inappropriate for a missionary to "lecture" anyone, let alone lecture someone as to his or her personal worthiness. Such a thing would not only necessarily be based principally on ignorance, but would also be a significant usurpation of stewardship. I am very disappointed to hear this has happened to you. 3 hours ago, jkwilliams said: Last night the subject came up, and I remembered Scott Lloyd’s signature about preferring anti-Mormons straight up. So, I simply said I don’t believe, making it kind of pointless for me to attend. After a few moments of awkward silence, we went back to talking about where they come from and other safe subjects. If you were being hectored, perhaps some straight talk was in order. We weren't there, so none of us are in a position to say much on this point. 3 hours ago, jkwilliams said: It went well, but I still wonder if it’s the right thing for an apostate to be so blunt with the missionaries. I’m not asking for approval or comment on me personally, but what is the proper etiquette? Is it bad form to speak up or to shut up? I don't think missionaries should be commenting on anyone's "worthiness," except in very limited parameters (such as a baptismal interview). Again, I am sorry this has happened. If this is happening regularly, that is troubling and weird. I am not sure why missionaries would be behaving this way. Thanks, -Smac 1
filovirus Posted December 19, 2017 Posted December 19, 2017 13 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: I don’t have a problem with them visiting. After all, we invited them over for dinner. Apparently they don’t get fed much, so we want to make sure they are taken care of. If they want to drop by and encourage me to come back, that’s fine. A dinner appointment may not be the best time to do that. I do have the missionaries share a spiritual thought when invited to dinner. After all, that is pretty much all the missionaries have to offer. I'm sorry one got to lecturing about worthiness. But glad you feed the missionaries. My ward is pretty good about keeping the missionaries fed, but 1-2 times a month they may skip dinner.
JLHPROF Posted December 19, 2017 Posted December 19, 2017 3 hours ago, Calm said: I am with MS....he is a guest in your home, judging or lecturing is inappropriate unless you have asked for it. Don't you remember what it's like to be 19 and sure you know everything and understand how the world works? I personally remember being completely insufferable. If only everyone were as wise as the average 18-24 year old.... 3
jkwilliams Posted December 19, 2017 Author Posted December 19, 2017 5 minutes ago, filovirus said: I do have the missionaries share a spiritual thought when invited to dinner. After all, that is pretty much all the missionaries have to offer. I'm sorry one got to lecturing about worthiness. But glad you feed the missionaries. My ward is pretty good about keeping the missionaries fed, but 1-2 times a month they may skip dinner. Spiritual thoughts are a matter of course. Again, it’s not a problem. Was just wondering if it’s best to be direct or, as in the past, to bite my tongue.
Exiled Posted December 19, 2017 Posted December 19, 2017 44 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Spiritual thoughts are a matter of course. Again, it’s not a problem. Was just wondering if it’s best to be direct or, as in the past, to bite my tongue. If it were me, I would answer truthfully if asked about whether or not I believed, but wouldn't volunteer it in order to be polite. Now, if some missionary started being obtuse, that is another question entirely and I would probably respond in kind.
california boy Posted December 19, 2017 Posted December 19, 2017 I always say hi to the missionaries when I travel. Never see them in San Francisco. They immediately ask if I am a member. I tell them that I used to be a member, but I am gay. Oddly enough they totally understand. I have never had them ask any more further questions. It is like they totally get why I have left the church. Never been called to repentance either. 1
Darren10 Posted December 19, 2017 Posted December 19, 2017 7 hours ago, jkwilliams said: Saturday night the missionaries came for dinner. We have fed many companionships over the years, and I’ve always bitten my tongue and said nothing about my issues with the church. Part of it is that I haven’t wanted to upset my wife, but I also just don’t want to get into it with strangers. It’s been difficult sometimes, as I’ve had to sit silently being lectured by a kid about how obviously I have worthiness issues, etc. Last night the subject came up, and I remembered Scott Lloyd’s signature about preferring anti-Mormons straight up. So, I simply said I don’t believe, making it kind of pointless for me to attend. After a few moments of awkward silence, we went back to talking about where they come from and other safe subjects. It went well, but I still wonder if it’s the right thing for an apostate to be so blunt with the missionaries. I’m not asking for approval or comment on me personally, but what is the proper etiquette? Is it bad form to speak up or to shut up? I think you did great. Absolutely be honest. Just say you don’t believe and therefore “pointless” to attend (I strongly disagree with you on that by the way), and give the missionaries a sigened copy of tour new missionary prep book. It’ll be great. Seriously, it’ll go fine.
Darren10 Posted December 19, 2017 Posted December 19, 2017 3 hours ago, california boy said: I always say hi to the missionaries when I travel. Never see them in San Francisco. They immediately ask if I am a member. I tell them that I used to be a member, but I am gay. Oddly enough they totally understand. I have never had them ask any more further questions. It is like they totally get why I have left the church. Never been called to repentance either. Why is it odd that they understand? Our former next door neighbors was a lesbian couple and one was LDS. She totally rejects the Church but she and her and her wife’s kids were always welcome to come and they knew it.
Storm Rider Posted December 19, 2017 Posted December 19, 2017 7 hours ago, Calm said: If he is there as a missionary, sure...if he is there as a guest for dinner, not so much. If they want to act as missionaries in calling someone to repentance, they should schedule it for a different time. A missionary is on the Lord's errand 24/7 for the whole time they are on their mission - even on p-days. I am not excusing bad behavior or even saying there was bad behavior. I also agree that jkw handled it well. I would have probably followed his statement up with - ....and I am no interested in talking about my faith with you, so please do not ask. I enjoy having you in our home and providing a meal, but I am not and will not be a project for the missionaries or for the ward. How did you like the potatoes?
Darren10 Posted December 19, 2017 Posted December 19, 2017 4 hours ago, jkwilliams said: I don’t have a problem with them visiting. After all, we invited them over for dinner. Apparently they don’t get fed much, so we want to make sure they are taken care of. If they want to drop by and encourage me to come back, that’s fine. A dinner appointment may not be the best time to do that. I’d encourage you to come to church if I were them. My approach would. Most likely be a firm hand shake. Look you in the eye, smile, nod and say something Like, “hope to see you in church sometime”. When I’d see your wife there I’d ask her about you to see how you’re doing. You seem like a very kind man so I’d feel blessed just to know you.
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