Straight up or shut up

[Darren10]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

If he is there as a missionary, sure...if he is there as a guest for dinner, not so much.

If they want to act as missionaries in calling someone to repentance, they should schedule it for a different time.

Why? Jesus did not seem to follow that pattern. To me it’s a matter of how to call someone to repentance and love and service should be at the top of anyone's approach. 

Edited December 19, 2017 by Darren10

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

I always say hi to the missionaries when I travel.  Never see them in San Francisco.  They immediately ask if I am a member.  I tell them that I used to be a member, but I am gay.  Oddly enough they totally understand.  I have never had them ask any more further questions.  It is like they totally get why I have left the church.  Never been called to repentance either.  

 

 

The way you phrase it, that you used to be a member but you are gay, probably signals to them that you aren’t interested in rejoining the Church. It would to me, anyway. It’s not surprising that, out of politeness and recognition of your moral agency, they wouldn’t pursue it. That doesn’t mean someone who is gay cannot embrace (or reembrace) the gospel message.  

[Darren10]

8 hours ago, MorningStar said:

That was the nice way to handle it considering he's telling you such a thing in your home while you're feeding him dinner.  Does he have a disorder or something? If a missionary said that to my dad (who hasn't gone to church since I was 4 or 5), I would have said something to him. Although my dad would have bitten his head off first like he did with a missionary who was an obvious con artist.  Next time he came by, my dad yelled that he wasn't welcome in his house. I was thrilled because I couldn't stand that guy.  Major con artist.  He was in my husband's mission and that guy was legendary for a while. 

Something vexes thee?

 

Edited December 19, 2017 by Darren10

[Robert F. Smith]

7 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

...............................................

But seriously, you lost me at “urbane gentleman.”  😂

That's how you come across here on this board, John.  Have I got you all wrong?

[MorningStar]

11 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

It’s not a big deal. They seem like they’re trying to help, and some of them seem to think the only reason a high priest wouldn’t attend is “you don’t feel worthy.”

Ah, I thought you meant the missionary was saying, "You must not be going to church because you're probably doing x, y, and z."  

[jkwilliams]

11 hours ago, Exiled said:

If it were me, I would answer truthfully if asked about whether or not I believed, but wouldn't volunteer it in order to be polite.  Now, if some missionary started being obtuse, that is another question entirely and I would probably respond in kind. 

That's the weird thing: I don't recall a missionary ever asking if I believed. The missionaries always assumed it was something else, like guilt or something else. In the past, I'd just tell them I had my reasons and leave it at that. Maybe I've just had enough of keeping it to myself, but I'm glad I was direct Saturday night.

By the way, since the age change, it really is striking how much younger and inexperienced these boys seem than missionaries were a few years ago. Both of these boys had left on their missions immediately after high school graduation, so they'd never had any experience living on their own away from their parents. I guess that's kind of the point of the lower age, to sort of have the parents hand them off directly to the church. I'm glad I had 18 months on my own after high school before going into the MTC. I think living on my own prepared me a little better for my mission.

[jkwilliams]

13 hours ago, ALarson said:

Exactly.  But I'm sure that judging them and calling them to repentance wouldn't have worked so well. 

It was interesting in that most of the people who weren't attending in that branch stopped coming because they had been offended by someone else. They would say, "I'm not going back if Hermano Flores is still there." I would just say that, given that our active membership consisted of the branch president (who lived outside the branch boundaries), an elderly woman, and a teenage boy, it was unlikely Hermano Flores was still around. 

I've only called one person to repentance in my life, and that was when I was elders quorum president. I felt prompted to tell a man he was going to lose what mattered to him if he didn't repent and stop putting himself first. A year later, he was divorced and told me he wished he had listened to me. But that's obviously an exception that is quite rare, at least for me.

[jkwilliams]

12 hours ago, Exiled said:

Just curious if you would feel more at ease in these situations if your wife wasn't still a believer?

Probably. Like I said, I always have it in the back of my mind that I don't want to revisit things we've already worked out. I know she still grieves over my "apostasy," but she understands where I'm coming from. The other thing is that we were both raised to never raise a fuss about anything in public, and my occasional lapses in self-censorship mortify her. 

[jkwilliams]

12 hours ago, smac97 said:

I think it is wholly inappropriate for a missionary to "lecture" anyone, let alone lecture someone as to his or her personal worthiness.  Such a thing would not only necessarily be based principally on ignorance, but would also be a significant usurpation of stewardship.  I am very disappointed to hear this has happened to you.

If you were being hectored, perhaps some straight talk was in order.  We weren't there, so none of us are in a position to say much on this point.

I don't think missionaries should be commenting on anyone's "worthiness," except in very limited parameters (such as a baptismal interview).  

Again, I am sorry this has happened.  If this is happening regularly, that is troubling and weird.  I am not sure why missionaries would be behaving this way.

Thanks,

-Smac

It's not a big deal, and no need for you to feel sorry. I'm not a confrontational person by nature, but even if I were, I'm not sure there's any point in telling off a missionary, unless they have really crossed a line. Assuming motives is close to that line, but when your wife is squeezing your hand and giving you that "Don't say anything!" look, you tend to keep quiet.

I have a good friend who left the church around the same time I did (in fact, he was a pro-LDS poster on this board for a few years). He told his wife he was willing to attend church, pay tithing, and accept a calling, but he wasn't willing to lie and say he believed in order to get a temple recommend. His wife said that if he didn't get a temple recommend, she was going to leave him and take the kids back to the UK. He suggested talking to the bishop about this ultimatum, and to his surprise, the bishop said it seemed reasonable to him (I've confirmed this story because I know one of that bishop's counselors, who said that's what the bishop told him). So, she left and went back to the UK. A few weeks later, the missionaries showed up, and one of them said, "Wow, look at this big, empty house. Just think, you would still have your family if you had kept your covenants." My friend asked them to leave and never come back. I think I would have done the same.

 

 

[jkwilliams]

12 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Don't you remember what it's like to be 19 and sure you know everything and understand how the world works?
I personally remember being completely insufferable.

If only everyone were as wise as the average 18-24 year old....

 

I don't know about you, but the older I get, the more convinced I am that I know next to nothing. I'm sure a lot of people agree with me. 

[smac97]

20 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

It's not a big deal, and no need for you to feel sorry. I'm not a confrontational person by nature, but even if I were, I'm not sure there's any point in telling off a missionary, unless they have really crossed a line. Assuming motives is close to that line, but when your wife is squeezing your hand and giving you that "Don't say anything!" look, you tend to keep quiet.

Okay.

Quote

I have a good friend who left the church around the same time I did (in fact, he was a pro-LDS poster on this board for a few years). He told his wife he was willing to attend church, pay tithing, and accept a calling, but he wasn't willing to lie and say he believed in order to get a temple recommend. His wife said that if he didn't get a temple recommend, she was going to leave him and take the kids back to the UK. He suggested talking to the bishop about this ultimatum, and to his surprise, the bishop said it seemed reasonable to him (I've confirmed this story because I know one of that bishop's counselors, who said that's what the bishop told him). So, she left and went back to the UK. A few weeks later, the missionaries showed up, and one of them said, "Wow, look at this big, empty house. Just think, you would still have your family if you had kept your covenants." My friend asked them to leave and never come back. I think I would have done the same.

Hmm.  These sorts of remarks from missionaries (or any other member of the Church, for that matter) are troubling.

-Smac

Edited December 19, 2017 by smac97

[jkwilliams]

4 hours ago, MorningStar said:

Ah, I thought you meant the missionary was saying, "You must not be going to church because you're probably doing x, y, and z."  

No, it was more, "You don't come to church because you feel unworthy. Maybe you'd like to tell us the reason you feel unworthy." It actually made me laugh to type this, as I can't imagine ever saying something like that to someone. 

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Okay.

Hmm.  These sorts of remarks from missionaries (or any other member of the Church, for that matter) are troubling.

-Smac

Definitely in my friend's case. 

[jkwilliams]

7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

That's how you come across here on this board, John.  Have I got you all wrong?

I'm pure evil.

[Rain]

I think what you said was just right. I always hope peole are honest with me rather than hide things to try to keep the peace. 

I was picturing the elder saying something much different though lol. Maybe it is because an Elder once stood up at the very beginning of F&T meeting and went to the pulpit, followed by his companion. He proceeded to call us to repentence because we were the only ward without an investigator in the stake! Keep in mind that this was in Utah and our entire stake might have been 1 square mile. Then, instead of staying for the meeting, he marched out the door to the side of the stand. 

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I'm pure evil.

An urbane legend.  

[MorningStar]

3 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

No, it was more, "You don't come to church because you feel unworthy. Maybe you'd like to tell us the reason you feel unworthy." It actually made me laugh to type this, as I can't imagine ever saying something like that to someone. 

WHAT.  Tell them, "If I told you, I would have to kill you."  

[jkwilliams]

8 minutes ago, MorningStar said:

WHAT.  Tell them, "If I told you, I would have to kill you."  

In the past, I've just said, "I'd rather not have this conversation," and changed the subject.

[Steve-o]

There's nothing wrong with keeping your opinions to yourself and there's nothing wrong with sharing them. Do what feels right.

[Scott Lloyd]

5 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

By the way, since the age change, it really is striking how much younger and inexperienced these boys seem than missionaries were a few years ago. Both of these boys had left on their missions immediately after high school graduation, so they'd never had any experience living on their own away from their parents. I guess that's kind of the point of the lower age, to sort of have the parents hand them off directly to the church. I'm glad I had 18 months on my own after high school before going into the MTC. I think living on my own prepared me a little better for my mission.

Speaking anecdotally, I would say that my son and his friends in the ward, all of whom left at age 18 after high school graduation, were well prepared and did very well. I don't think another year would have mattered a great deal.

[jkwilliams]

11 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Speaking anecdotally, I would say that my son and his friends in the ward, all of whom left at age 18 after high school graduation, were well prepared and did very well. I don't think another year would have mattered a great deal.

That's good. 

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Speaking anecdotally, I would say that my son and his friends in the ward, all of whom left at age 18 after high school graduation, were well prepared and did very well. I don't think another year would have mattered a great deal.

Also anecdotally, I can recall that going on a mission was the furthest thing from my mind.  I was sure that I wanted to go to war (the glory and all), and even dropped out of HS at 17 to join the USMC.  Four years later I had finally realized just how crazy that notion was, and the day after my discharge I was in Provo, registering at BYU.  Later I got to see frontline armed combat without any desire to do so.  Life happens, and we are not always quite ready for it.

[Bernard Gui]

On 12/18/2017 at 1:45 PM, stemelbow said:

I sat with a gentleman who hadn't been to church for years and I got to hear his story.  It was a good chat.  In the midst of it, missionaries approached, and he said "hey guys, you can save your spiel.  I've heard it all many times before.  No need to waste your time on me.  I know who I am and what I want. But, thanks for trying.  Just please, take me seriously with this.  I don't need to go over it again with new kids trying to figure out a new angle that has been attempted many times before."    

It worked.  they stiffened up and were like, "Oh" and moved on.  I was like, "nicely done" with an approving head nod

My dad, as a non-member, said such as this to many missionaries who visited our home for well over a decade. At dinner he would say, “You can eat my food, but you can’t cram your religion down my throat.” That is, until he met Elders Stuart and Hirschi. He still had their missionary cards in his wallet when he passed away 50 years later.

Edited December 23, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Mars]

Where in Virginia?  I'm in Fairfax county.

[aussieguy55]

As  an Australian I feel sorry for the missionaries having to deal with the public  with the current events in Washington and views of Donald Trump.Australians love the net and are aware of the dramas in congress  and Trump's personal life. Most missionaries would be unaware of the issues since   most of what they do in my local library is write home  to family.