Secret Combinations

[DJBrown]

One of the main themes in the Book of Mormon is "secret combinations."  In the text, we read about these secret and wicked organizations that seek power and sin.  In Ether, Moroni gives a sobering warning to latter-day Gentiles regarding secret combinations:

"Wherefore, O ye Gentiles, it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you, which are built up to get power and gain—and the work, yea, even the work of destruction come upon you, yea, even the sword of the justice of the Eternal God shall fall upon you, to your overthrow and destruction if ye shall suffer these things to be.

Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you; or wo be unto it, because of the blood of them who have been slain; for they cry from the dust for vengeance upon it, and also upon those who built it up.

For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies; even that same liar who beguiled our first parents, yea, even that same liar who hath caused man to commit murder from the beginning; who hath hardened the hearts of men that they have murdered the prophets, and stoned them, and cast them out from the beginning."

President Benson also warned of secret combinations in our day.  

My questions is- does such an organization or organizations exist today.  And if so, how are they manifest in the world and what do they seek?

[stemelbow]

6 minutes ago, DJBrown said:

One of the main themes in the Book of Mormon is "secret combinations."  In the text, we read about these secret and wicked organizations that seek power and sin.  In Ether, Moroni gives a sobering warning to latter-day Gentiles regarding secret combinations:

"Wherefore, O ye Gentiles, it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you, which are built up to get power and gain—and the work, yea, even the work of destruction come upon you, yea, even the sword of the justice of the Eternal God shall fall upon you, to your overthrow and destruction if ye shall suffer these things to be.

Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you; or wo be unto it, because of the blood of them who have been slain; for they cry from the dust for vengeance upon it, and also upon those who built it up.

For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies; even that same liar who beguiled our first parents, yea, even that same liar who hath caused man to commit murder from the beginning; who hath hardened the hearts of men that they have murdered the prophets, and stoned them, and cast them out from the beginning."

President Benson also warned of secret combinations in our day.  

My questions is- does such an organization or organizations exist today.  And if so, how are they manifest in the world and what do they seek?

In our day?  As in more recent years than what the BoM purports to be?  I think a great example, sadly, is the Church in Nauvoo.  Not the whole Church, but those who were in Joseph's secret group, particularly as it pertained to polygamy, but other ways as well. 

[Maidservant]

12 minutes ago, DJBrown said:

One of the main themes in the Book of Mormon is "secret combinations."  In the text, we read about these secret and wicked organizations that seek power and sin.  In Ether, Moroni gives a sobering warning to latter-day Gentiles regarding secret combinations:

"Wherefore, O ye Gentiles, it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you, which are built up to get power and gain—and the work, yea, even the work of destruction come upon you, yea, even the sword of the justice of the Eternal God shall fall upon you, to your overthrow and destruction if ye shall suffer these things to be.

Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you; or wo be unto it, because of the blood of them who have been slain; for they cry from the dust for vengeance upon it, and also upon those who built it up.

For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies; even that same liar who beguiled our first parents, yea, even that same liar who hath caused man to commit murder from the beginning; who hath hardened the hearts of men that they have murdered the prophets, and stoned them, and cast them out from the beginning."

President Benson also warned of secret combinations in our day.  

My questions is- does such an organization or organizations exist today.  And if so, how are they manifest in the world and what do they seek?

Honey, how about the entire United States government since at least Andrew Jackson (industrial-military complex), or the existence and collusion of all nations to oppress and war?

I often refer to the powers that be as Gadiantons.

Obviously, individual people are sincere and doing their best, even while trying to deal with the oaths that must be given, but the world system itself is the biggest combination you ever did see.

The problem that some people have is imagining Gadiantons as outliers, hiding in the forest (so to speak), and coming out to wreak havoc.  But later in the Book of Mormon, the Gadiantons were threaded through the establishment.

I think the issue for me is not what other people do, whether they are Gadiantons or not, but I take great care to examine myself that I am not participating or supporting the combinations by my own acts.  OR, of course, to realize my own culpability when I do (such as when I watch television, not giving that up yet).

Anyway, just the way I see it.

[Avatar4321]

sorry. we can't talk politics

[jkwilliams]

52 minutes ago, DJBrown said:

My questions is- does such an organization or organizations exist today.  And if so, how are they manifest in the world and what do they seek?

It's interesting that "secret combination," meaning a conspiratorial group or organization, appears most commonly in the first half of the nineteenth century, and then its use falls off.

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=secret+combination&year_start=1500&year_end=1950&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Csecret combination%3B%2Cc0

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, DJBrown said:

My questions is- does such an organization or organizations exist today. 

Yes.  But I hate conspiracy theories.  There are many secret organizations and groups throughout the world, in and out of governments.
Many are evil, some are just clubs.

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

 I think a great example, sadly, is the Church in Nauvoo.  Not the whole Church, but those who were in Joseph's secret group, particularly as it pertained to polygamy, but other ways as well. 

Secret organization?  Sure.
But it wasn't "built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies;".

There is an evil counterfeit for everything.
Even on the other thread we are talking about whether or not God/Christ will reveal the time of the second coming or keep it secret knowledge.
There has always been a withholding of knowledge based on initiation into a group.  Doesn't make them all evil.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, DJBrown said:

One of the main themes in the Book of Mormon is "secret combinations."  In the text, we read about these secret and wicked organizations that seek power and sin.  In Ether, Moroni gives a sobering warning to latter-day Gentiles regarding secret combinations:

"Wherefore, O ye Gentiles, it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you, which are built up to get power and gain—and the work, yea, even the work of destruction come upon you, yea, even the sword of the justice of the Eternal God shall fall upon you, to your overthrow and destruction if ye shall suffer these things to be.

Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you; or wo be unto it, because of the blood of them who have been slain; for they cry from the dust for vengeance upon it, and also upon those who built it up.

For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies; even that same liar who beguiled our first parents, yea, even that same liar who hath caused man to commit murder from the beginning; who hath hardened the hearts of men that they have murdered the prophets, and stoned them, and cast them out from the beginning."

President Benson also warned of secret combinations in our day.  

My questions is- does such an organization or organizations exist today.  And if so, how are they manifest in the world and what do they seek?

Duh.

Terrorism.

Edited September 15, 2017 by mfbukowski

[thesometimesaint]

Are there groups that seek our destruction? Yes. Are they in governments, societies, organizations, and the like? Yes. Are they political groups? Not necessarily.

[Glenn101]

The mafia would come close to the examples provided in the Book of Mormon although it never succeeded in gaining the power that the Gadianton robbers in the Book of Mormon times.Being secretive though is not a crime or a sin, but often the acts that he secrecy is designed to cover are.

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

3 hours ago, DJBrown said:

 

In our day?  As in more recent years than what the BoM purports to be?  I think a great example, sadly, is the Church in Nauvoo.  Not the whole Church, but those who were in Joseph's secret group, particularly as it pertained to polygamy, but other ways as well.

I disagree with you there brother. Hopefully we both will get to meet Brother Joseph one day and he can disabuse us both of any incorrect ideas that we may currently hold about that situation. I personally am not going to try to judge Joseph from this this distance.

Glenn

[RevTestament]

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

It's interesting that "secret combination," meaning a conspiratorial group or organization, appears most commonly in the first half of the nineteenth century, and then its use falls off.

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=secret+combination&year_start=1500&year_end=1950&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Csecret combination%3B%2Cc0

TBH I had never heard the term that I recall until referenced from the BoM. I suppose you are inferring that says something about the translation? Does it matter that the translation uses a common terminology for the time it was translated? Like the word "adieu?" That apparently became so common as to be almost an English word. That happens y'know. There are many such examples of foreign words in the English language. I've always referred to such groups as secret societies. No matter - it's the same meaning - different time. JS was given the terminology for his time. Secret combination could actually have a more complete meaning than "secret society" so may, in my view, be more appropriate terminology. 

[jkwilliams]

Just now, RevTestament said:

TBH I had never heard the term that I recall until referenced from the BoM. I suppose you are inferring that says something about the translation? Does it matter that the translation uses a common terminology for the time it was translated? Like the word "adieu?" That apparently became so common as to be almost an English word. That happens y'know. There are many such examples of foreign words in the English language. I've always referred to such groups as secret societies. No matter - it's the same meaning - different time. JS was given the terminology for his time. Secret combination could actually have a more complete meaning than "secret society" so may, in my view, be more appropriate terminology. 

Nope, just situates the text within the environment in which it appeared, as you note.

[stemelbow]

16 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

The mafia would come close to the examples provided in the Book of Mormon although it never succeeded in gaining the power that the Gadianton robbers in the Book of Mormon times.Being secretive though is not a crime or a sin, but often the acts that he secrecy is designed to cover are.

I disagree with you there brother. Hopefully we both will get to meet Brother Joseph one day and he can disabuse us both of any incorrect ideas that we may currently hold about that situation. I personally am not going to try to judge Joseph from this this distance.

Glenn

I'm not judging.  He could still be an exalted being for all I know.  All we do know, as we've learned is they lived some aspects in secret and committed each other to secrecy. 

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Yes.  But I hate conspiracy theories.  There are many secret organizations and groups throughout the world, in and out of governments.
Many are evil, some are just clubs.

Secret organization?  Sure.
But it wasn't "built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies;".

 

 

Who knows really?  We can only guess.   The OP just asked about examples of these secret orgs, if you will.  I gave an example.  I didn't introduce the devil into this conversation. 

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

There is an evil counterfeit for everything.
Even on the other thread we are talking about whether or not God/Christ will reveal the time of the second coming or keep it secret knowledge.
There has always been a withholding of knowledge based on initiation into a group.  Doesn't make them all evil.

 

[Benjamin McGuire]

Historically, every generation of Mormons found something to identify as the "secret combinations". At some points we had some who saw references to freemasonry in it. At other times, it was referring to communism. At other times to the Klu Klux Klan. There is quite a bit in this about perception. Why Freemasons instead of the Odd Fellows?

If we want to find a 'secret combination,' it's pretty easy to do so (especially if you like conspiracy theories).

Edited September 15, 2017 by Benjamin McGuire

[The Nehor]

They are prevalent, pervasive, and most people accede to at least one such group.

Like in the Book of Mormon they are mostly incompetent bumbling organizations that usually fail to achieve their goals.

You find them in employees that agree to keep quiet about cheating, employers seeking to exploit their employees unfairly, political groups working together to cover their sins, scratching each other's backs unfair business deals, advertising campaigns deceiving people in order to defraud them, criminal enterprises from stupid street gangs to organized crime, and the list can go on and on.

The scriptures do not spend much time talking about their secret nature and ferreting them out as they are usually blatant. The counsel is to avoid belonging to them.

Edited September 15, 2017 by The Nehor

[Calm]

3 hours ago, stemelbow said:

In our day?  As in more recent years than what the BoM purports to be?  I think a great example, sadly, is the Church in Nauvoo.  Not the whole Church, but those who were in Joseph's secret group, particularly as it pertained to polygamy, but other ways as well. 

So you believe they went around murdering people?

[stemelbow]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

So you believe they went around murdering people?

Nah...they couldn't have gotten away with it.  There is the case after Joseph's death wherein his brother died.  Some think he was poisoned.  But as time went on there were some murdering that the saints, if you can call them that, did.  The MMM is an interesting consideration as the fears and all htat continued.  At some point, they felt their only option, it seems, was to murder innocent un-armed people.  Many of the killers, it seems, got away with it. 

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

They are prevalent, pervasive, and most people accede to at least one such group.

Like in the Book of Mormon they are mostly incompetent bumbling organizations that usually fail to achieve their goals.

You find them in employees that agree to keep quiet about cheating, employers seeking to exploit their employees unfairly, political groups working together to cover their sins, scratching each other's backs unfair business deals, advertising campaigns deceiving people in order to defraud them, criminal enterprises from stupid street gangs to organized crime, and the list can go on and on.

The scriptures do not spend much time talking about their secret nature and ferreting them out as they are usually blatant. The counsel is to avoid beloning to them.

I think the Book of Mormon qualifies them on a bit more extreme level by including the term "murderous".  Unless these groups include murder as one of their tools, they don't qualify, though they may be sinful for other reasons.

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Nah...they couldn't have gotten away with it.

Then how do they qualify for what the Book of Mormon is condemning in the opening post?

[stemelbow]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think the Book of Mormon qualifies them on a bit more extreme level by including the term "murderous".  Unless these groups include murder as one of their tools, they don't qualify, though they may be sinful for other reasons.

I'd say people can be murderous without murdering, sadly to your point. 

[The Nehor]

Just now, Calm said:

I think the Book of Mormon qualifies them on a bit more extreme level by including the term "murderous".  Unless these groups include murder as one of their tools, they don't qualify, though they may be sinful for other reasons.

Many of the Book of Mormon combinations did use murder but that is not a requirement. Basically it is any group that makes a pact or agreement to hide each other's misdeeds and their objective is gain and/or glory.

Murderous ones are amongst the worst. Also those that seek to convert human life into personal property. This is often done through slavery (real or de facto), exploitation, and by killing. The sin is the most heinous in these cases.

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

Then how do they qualify for what the Book of Mormon is condemning in the opening post?

I went on to explain more, in that post.  As time went on, after having the society established in Nauvoo.  They did murder.  It's not as if a secret combination has to murder within a year or two, with the organizers to be a secret combination, no? 

[The Nehor]

7 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Nah...they couldn't have gotten away with it.  There is the case after Joseph's death wherein his brother died.  Some think he was poisoned.  But as time went on there were some murdering that the saints, if you can call them that, did.  The MMM is an interesting consideration as the fears and all htat continued.  At some point, they felt their only option, it seems, was to murder innocent un-armed people.  Many of the killers, it seems, got away with it. 

I would call that a radical interpretation of the MMM.

[stemelbow]

Just now, The Nehor said:

I would call that a radical interpretation of the MMM.

Well good.  It's a start on us seeing eye to eye.  Are you saying they did not murder unarmed innocent people?  Or is it that you disagree they wanted to keep it secret?  Or that many who killed got away with it? 

What's so radical here? 

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I went on to explain more, in that post.  As time went on, after having the society established in Nauvoo.  They did murder.  It's not as if a secret combination has to murder within a year or two, with the organizers to be a secret combination, no? 

CFR that the organization that Joseph set up murdered anyone to get power and gain.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Calm