Secret Combinations

[The Nehor]

I balk at the idea that secret combinations are limited to murder pacts. Why would the Book of Mormon spend so much time on them if that was the warning? Has anyone here been seriously tempted to assent to murder for financial gain?

On the other hand I know I have been tempted by communities of silence and protection to hide my sins or to get money or to get ahead at work. A few months ago I was offered a lucrative investment opportunity. It was pretty reliable, would have made a good profit, and risk was minimal. I figured I could use the money to pay off my house more quickly and was tempted until I came to myself and realized that what I was about to do was supporting people who were grinding the faces of the poor to make my return on that investment. I tried to rationalize it briefly by saying it was their own fault for being stupid enough to be exploited but I had doubts about that as a moral defense.

That was, in its own way, a secret combination. It was legal but it was wrong and everyone involved was in denial about that fact and covered up the cost to human lives. It was wonderfully Mahanite. Exploit human life to make a profit......

[stemelbow]

12 hours ago, The Nehor said:

what I was about to do was supporting people who were grinding the faces of the poor to make my return on that investment.

Ouch.  I'm glad you abstained. 

[stemelbow]

21 hours ago, Vance said:

The topic is "secret combinations" not just secrets.

Context, context, context.

"the devil . . . who . . . stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness."

"And there are also secret combinations, even as in times of old, according to the combinations of the devil, for he is the founder of all these things; yea, the founder of murder, and works of darkness;

For behold, they murdered all the prophets of the Lord who came among them to declare unto them concerning their iniquities; and the blood of those whom they murdered did cry unto the Lord their God for vengeance upon those who were their murderers; and thus the judgments of God did come upon these workers of darkness and secret combinations.

Yea, and cursed be the land forever and ever unto those workers of darkness and secret combinations, even unto destruction, except they repent before they are fully ripe.

That is just a sample, but it clearly isn't talking about polygamy.

Eh...polygamy seems like a secret work of darkness to me, at least the way it seemingly most often leads.  It was in Nauvoo, it seems to me.  Secret...a work of darkness.  it was in Colorado City too. 

There are exceptions.  In Utah it was practiced more openly.  Thus the secret was less obvious.  But it still seemed a bit of secrecy was involved...and darkness. 

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Ouch.  I'm glad you abstained. 

Me too....mostly. It is scary how tempting it was when I only wanted the money. How bad would it have been if I had desperately needed the money?  

[thesometimesaint]

40 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Eh...polygamy seems like a secret work of darkness to me, at least the way it seemingly most often leads.  It was in Nauvoo, it seems to me.  Secret...a work of darkness.  it was in Colorado City too. 

There are exceptions.  In Utah it was practiced more openly.  Thus the secret was less obvious.  But it still seemed a bit of secrecy was involved...and darkness. 

The Book of Mormon was published in 1829 a few years before Nauvoo.

[Gray]

Putin's government is a perfect example.

[DJBrown]

14 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Hogwash, DJ.  Marxism died because it thrived on both totalitarianism and state capitalism.  There was no communism in Marxism at all.  In early Christianity and at Qumran, yes, but not in modern Marxist states.  Dictatorship cannot abide the Bill of Rights or the Law of Common Consent.  Unrelated to all that is God's expectation that we be good stewards of planet Earth.  Environmentalism is thus a mission from God.

Let's say totalitarianism.  Do you see any threat of totalitarianism in the world today?  Moroni alluded to some influence in modern times that would potentially "overthrow the freedoms of all lands, nations, and countries" and "it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people."  This doesn't sound like some gang in China or a small group of people practicing polygamy.  In my little, bitty brain, I have to think such an influence has something to do with people and/or groups that advocate for increasing levels of international governance at the expense of national sovereignty.  What influences today could potentially destroy "all people?" 

By the way, many leaders within the environmental movement advocate having fewer children to save planet earth.  One of the primary recommendations crafted by environmental groups for adoption by all people is to have fewer children.  Can you reconcile that with the principles of the restored gospel?  I can't.

[Robert F. Smith]

20 minutes ago, DJBrown said:

Let's say totalitarianism.  Do you see any threat of totalitarianism in the world today?

Of course, and Vlad Putin has now revived the old Soviet Union, and has even successfully foisted his own fake president upon the USA.  There are a number of lesser totalitarian states worldwide (North Korea, Myanmar, Cuba, Venezuela, Syria), some of them Islamic (Iran, Turkey).  China is in a class by itself now, abandoning Marxism for a more consumer-oriented totalitarian state, but seeking to fully dominate their region economically, politically, and militarily.  All such regimes want to see less influence in their areas from the USA, and that desire is being fulfilled -- especially in the wake of a chaotic U.S. fake-presidency.

20 minutes ago, DJBrown said:

  Moroni alluded to some influence in modern times that would potentially "overthrow the freedoms of all lands, nations, and countries" and "it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people."  This doesn't sound like some gang in China or a small group of people practicing polygamy.  In my little, bitty brain, I have to think such an influence has something to do with people and/or groups that advocate for increasing levels of international governance at the expense of national sovereignty.  What influences today could potentially destroy "all people?" 

Among the various national security threats free people face is the threat of terrorism requiring the implementation of totalitarian rules in free countries.  This problem has grown exponentially in the last half-century.  However, that will seem insignificant in the face of global chaos caused in coming decades as rising oceans and storm surges cause the abandonment of all low-lying coastal areas of the world -- major examples being Holland, Bangladesh, both of which will be inundated and uninhabitable.  The simultaneous diminution of rain & snow in the Himalayas and therefore of fresh water available to the most populous areas of the world (India, China, Southeast Asia) constitute an existential threat to those nations, and the resulting famine and Malthusian death will roil the entire planet.  If terrorists manage to obtain fission weapons, this will be particularly dangerous for everyone.  I see widespread death and destruction of civilization in the offing.

20 minutes ago, DJBrown said:

By the way, many leaders within the environmental movement advocate having fewer children to save planet earth.  One of the primary recommendations crafted by environmental groups for adoption by all people is to have fewer children.  Can you reconcile that with the principles of the restored gospel?  I can't.

Yokels will do and say anything imaginable.  However, the environmentalists I know are uninterested in such silly proposals -- which have nothing to do with the actual threats to the environment.

[JLHPROF]

5 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Eh...polygamy seems like a secret work of darkness to me, at least the way it seemingly most often leads.  It was in Nauvoo, it seems to me.  Secret...a work of darkness.  it was in Colorado City too. 

There are exceptions.  In Utah it was practiced more openly.  Thus the secret was less obvious.  But it still seemed a bit of secrecy was involved...and darkness. 

Secrecy is no sin.
Joseph taught:

• "The reason we do not have the secrets of the Lord revealed unto us, is because we do not keep them but reveal them; we do not keep our own secrets, but reveal our difficulties to the world, even to our enemies, then how would we keep the secrets of the Lord? I can keep a secret till Doomsday."

Christ taught us not to cast our pearls before swine.
Not every secret falls into the category of "secret combinations" referred to by the Book of Mormon.   Differentiating between the two and learning to keep things secret is important.
 

[stemelbow]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Secrecy is no sin.
Joseph taught:

• "The reason we do not have the secrets of the Lord revealed unto us, is because we do not keep them but reveal them; we do not keep our own secrets, but reveal our difficulties to the world, even to our enemies, then how would we keep the secrets of the Lord? I can keep a secret till Doomsday."

Christ taught us not to cast our pearls before swine.
Not every secret falls into the category of "secret combinations" referred to by the Book of Mormon.   Differentiating between the two and learning to keep things secret is important.
 

Yes.  I hope not all secret is sin, otherwise my current aim of telestial glory is in serious jeopardy.  That's not what I was saying. 

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, stemelbow said:

Yes.  I hope not all secret is sin, otherwise my current aim of telestial glory is in serious jeopardy.  That's not what I was saying. 

You seemed to indicate that polygamy was sinful as evidenced by its practice in secrecy.
I don't think the two go hand in hand so secrecy doesn't provide any evidence of sin.

[stemelbow]

22 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

You seemed to indicate that polygamy was sinful as evidenced by its practice in secrecy.
I don't think the two go hand in hand so secrecy doesn't provide any evidence of sin.

No.  I say polygamy is problematic and doesn't work.  That's what led to its downfall and the problems we see in some polygamous communities today when brought to light help it explain it more.  Polygamy itself is not a godly practice as I see it, in contrast to the prophets who taught it was.  It's ugly stuff.  That secret part of it only shows an important part of the combination that was created early on. 

[clarkgoble]

46 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

No.  I say polygamy is problematic and doesn't work.  That's what led to its downfall and the problems we see in some polygamous communities today when brought to light help it explain it more.  Polygamy itself is not a godly practice as I see it, in contrast to the prophets who taught it was.  It's ugly stuff.  That secret part of it only shows an important part of the combination that was created early on. 

One can accept that polygamy in practice is deeply problematic and not something most people could live as a practical matter yet not see it as inherently bad. I'm completely glad it's not part of the church. But I worry about the stereotype that it never works. 

My personal feeling is that something like polygamy is necessary to deal with the reality of people being married to people sequentially rather than simultaneously for sealings in the next life. (When presumably all the things that make polygamy practically difficult which are tied to our biological instincts and biases are removed)

I'd add that I think we have to distinguish between polygamy in primitive societies where everyone is at a near subsistence living and polygamy in more modern societies. Of course infamously Utah polygamy was in this transitionary period when people were starting to move from subsistent farming. And I personally don't think from what I read most Utah polygamists worked well either. Although some basic rules that other polygamous societies developed would have helped early Utah a great deal. i.e. max 4 wives, no large gaps in age, follow D&C 132's rule about making other wives have veto. Honestly much of the problems in Utah were due to men, especially powerful men, having too much power and women not having enough. I'm not a feminist (at least the 3rd wave and beyond sort), but I think there's definitely something to be said by empowering women and their values, choices and views in all this. That just wasn't done enough even though in this era women were empowered in many other ways beyond what was typical of the era. Could it work better where women's veto power was truly respected and their voices heard? Possibly. I don't know. Certainly I think it would have worked better. But that's damning with faint praise.

Edited September 18, 2017 by clarkgoble

[clarkgoble]

18 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I balk at the idea that secret combinations are limited to murder pacts. Why would the Book of Mormon spend so much time on them if that was the warning? Has anyone here been seriously tempted to assent to murder for financial gain?

I don't think individual temptation is necessarily the warning though. But you can certainly see all the trappings of the Gadiantons in many failed states. (Venezuela I'm looking at you) As others have noted there have definitely been periods of high corruption in the US such as Chicago during much of the 20th century - particularly the first half. Right now despite problems in some areas we're doing fairly well. That doesn't mean one day we won't have problems akin to what we once had, or that Mexico has had for a long time. Mexico is in particular a warning to us given that the cartels and corruption is threatening to undermine the country in various ways. You might not be tempted to murder for financial gain in Mexico, but that doesn't mean the cartels won't have an effect on you. It's interesting that this is happening even as many police forces there in places like Tijuana are becoming more professional and less corrupt. So it's complicated.

 

[DJBrown]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Of course, and Vlad Putin has now revived the old Soviet Union, and has even successfully foisted his own fake president upon the USA.  There are a number of lesser totalitarian states worldwide (North Korea, Myanmar, Cuba, Venezuela, Syria), some of them Islamic (Iran, Turkey).  China is in a class by itself now, abandoning Marxism for a more consumer-oriented totalitarian state, but seeking to fully dominate their region economically, politically, and militarily.  All such regimes want to see less influence in their areas from the USA, and that desire is being fulfilled -- especially in the wake of a chaotic U.S. fake-presidency.

Among the various national security threats free people face is the threat of terrorism requiring the implementation of totalitarian rules in free countries.  This problem has grown exponentially in the last half-century.  However, that will seem insignificant in the face of global chaos caused in coming decades as rising oceans and storm surges cause the abandonment of all low-lying coastal areas of the world -- major examples being Holland, Bangladesh, both of which will be inundated and uninhabitable.  The simultaneous diminution of rain & snow in the Himalayas and therefore of fresh water available to the most populous areas of the world (India, China, Southeast Asia) constitute an existential threat to those nations, and the resulting famine and Malthusian death will roil the entire planet.  If terrorists manage to obtain fission weapons, this will be particularly dangerous for everyone.  I see widespread death and destruction of civilization in the offing.

Yokels will do and say anything imaginable.  However, the environmentalists I know are uninterested in such silly proposals -- which have nothing to do with the actual threats to the environment.

Do you happen to have any evidence that Putin somehow put Trump in the White House?  

"Experts" have been warning of a weather-type apocalypse for many decades.  Their predictions have not proven true.  The computer models have all overestimated any temperature change enormously.  And none of the 6 multipliers which supposedly augment the effect of CO2 actually work.  The models are a farce.

The imminent environmental catastrophe has been called a reproductive crisis.  The "yokels" you allude to have quite a voice.  Here is a quick survey of just a fraction of the news articles advocating having fewer or no children to save mother earth.  I would say there is nothing more contrary to God's plan that this.

https://www.wired.com/2015/04/biggest-threat-earth-many-kids/

http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/want-to-stop-climate-change-have-one-less-child-ubc-study-says

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/05/31/is-it-ethical-to-have-children-climate-change-family-planning/

http://metro.co.uk/2016/09/25/if-you-want-to-stop-global-warming-stop-having-kids-academic-says-6152311/

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/green_room/2007/09/global_swarming.html

http://www.npr.org/2016/08/18/479349760/should-we-be-having-kids-in-the-age-of-climate-change

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/oct/28/how-save-planet-stop-having-children-doctors

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4687400/Study-Want-save-planet-Don-t-children.html

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ericagies/2011/10/31/why-im-not-having-kids-and-you-shouldnt-either/#2c95dcd2377f

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7759845.stm

https://www.thenation.com/article/how-do-you-decide-to-have-a-baby-when-climate-change-is-remaking-life-on-earth/

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/people-who-dont-have-children-benefit-our-environment-more-than-any-campaign-its-time-to-celebrate-a7178951.html

https://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode/are-babies-bad-for-the-environment-09-08-06/

[The Nehor]

30 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I don't think individual temptation is necessarily the warning though. But you can certainly see all the trappings of the Gadiantons in many failed states. (Venezuela I'm looking at you) As others have noted there have definitely been periods of high corruption in the US such as Chicago during much of the 20th century - particularly the first half. Right now despite problems in some areas we're doing fairly well. That doesn't mean one day we won't have problems akin to what we once had, or that Mexico has had for a long time. Mexico is in particular a warning to us given that the cartels and corruption is threatening to undermine the country in various ways. You might not be tempted to murder for financial gain in Mexico, but that doesn't mean the cartels won't have an effect on you. It's interesting that this is happening even as many police forces there in places like Tijuana are becoming more professional and less corrupt. So it's complicated.

 

In the Book of Mormon the warning is not build up secret combinations or participate in them. Knowing they can effect you does not seem like much of a warning. Plus they have always been around. The drug cartels, North Korea, and Viking raiders might have different methods and ideologies but all might kill you. Not sure why we need a warning if they are not to tempt the faithful to join them.

[CV75]

19 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I balk at the idea that secret combinations are limited to murder pacts. Why would the Book of Mormon spend so much time on them if that was the warning? Has anyone here been seriously tempted to assent to murder for financial gain?

On the other hand I know I have been tempted by communities of silence and protection to hide my sins or to get money or to get ahead at work. A few months ago I was offered a lucrative investment opportunity. It was pretty reliable, would have made a good profit, and risk was minimal. I figured I could use the money to pay off my house more quickly and was tempted until I came to myself and realized that what I was about to do was supporting people who were grinding the faces of the poor to make my return on that investment. I tried to rationalize it briefly by saying it was their own fault for being stupid enough to be exploited but I had doubts about that as a moral defense.

That was, in its own way, a secret combination. It was legal but it was wrong and everyone involved was in denial about that fact and covered up the cost to human lives. It was wonderfully Mahanite. Exploit human life to make a profit......

I think the temptation is to allow or acquiesce to them, or to ignore or deny they exist or do serious harm. I think the Book of Mormon warnings have to do with our response to knowing they are among us (notably Ether 8 ), as part of the people (3 Nephi 7:6, 7; $ Nephi 1:42), and not necessarily with resisting direct participation in the pacts. I think if you "follow the money" and find that innocents are killed either by design or as a collateral risk in carrying out even legal contracts, that would be a failure to heed the warning. This of course does not excuse or minimize the wickedness of the types of investments you describe here.

[The Nehor]

5 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think the temptation is to allow or acquiesce to them, or to ignore or deny they exist or do serious harm. I think the Book of Mormon warnings have to do with our response to knowing they are among us (notably Ether 8 ), as part of the people (3 Nephi 7:6, 7; $ Nephi 1:42), and not necessarily with resisting direct participation in the pacts. I think if you "follow the money" and find that innocents are killed either by design or as a collateral risk in carrying out even legal contracts, that would be a failure to heed the warning. This of course does not excuse or minimize the wickedness of the types of investments you describe here.

That seems incredibly passive. Whether you ignore them or acknowledge them has little real effect and implies that conspiracy theorists are saints for their relentless pursuit of combinations. What do we do when we find them? Are conspiracy nuts the real heroes?

[DJBrown]

57 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

In the Book of Mormon the warning is not build up secret combinations or participate in them. Knowing they can effect you does not seem like much of a warning. Plus they have always been around. The drug cartels, North Korea, and Viking raiders might have different methods and ideologies but all might kill you. Not sure why we need a warning if they are not to tempt the faithful to join them.

Very good point.  Moroni's warning seems to suggest there would be temptation in front of our noses that we needed to recognize, not some far off relatively trivial group doing bad things.

And Moroni uses the word "gentiles" to identify the group to whom he is speaking.  Elsewhere, "gentiles" is used to identify those in America and Europe.

Edited September 18, 2017 by DJBrown

[Vance]

8 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Eh...polygamy seems like a secret work of darkness to me, at least the way it seemingly most often leads.

So, the fact that the progeny of those early polygamists led the Church, keeping it alive and growing for nearly 100 years represents darkness to you?

[CV75]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

That seems incredibly passive. Whether you ignore them or acknowledge them has little real effect and implies that conspiracy theorists are saints for their relentless pursuit of combinations. What do we do when we find them? Are conspiracy nuts the real heroes?

Yes, it is passive, and therein lies the temptation. It is so easy to get ensnared. The Book of Mormon warning is that when we seen these things among us, and they will be among us, to take decisive measures to not allow them to get above us. Preserving the prevention and enforcement measures institutionalized by constitutional rule of law is essential, and that requires an educated citizenry acting in wisdom and in order. Now that isn't so easy, especially when politics and economics are the same thing and everyone wants an easier way--the quest for being at ease in Zion, material prospering in Zion, all being well in Zion, etc.

[mfbukowski]

I have a combination lock stuck on a cabinet and I have forgotten the combination.

Does that qualify?

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Yes, it is passive, and therein lies the temptation. It is so easy to get ensnared. The Book of Mormon warning is that when we seen these things among us, and they will be among us, to take decisive measures to not allow them to get above us. Preserving the prevention and enforcement measures institutionalized by constitutional rule of law is essential, and that requires an educated citizenry acting in wisdom and in order. Now that isn't so easy, especially when politics and economics are the same thing and everyone wants an easier way--the quest for being at ease in Zion, material prospering in Zion, all being well in Zion, etc.

What decisive measures are the LDS to take when we are a minority almost everywhere? The only place we have a ton of influence is Utah and Idaho and they cannot even resist the secret combinations of multilevel marketing....