second restoration

[Avatar4321]

I remember reading something from David Whitmer about a second restoration or a second part to it. Does anyone know anything about this?

[JLHPROF]

I don't know about David Whitmer, but the idea of a second restoration has been used by numerous false prophets.

Jim Harmston and his Manti group, some of Denver Snuffer's followers, some Independent fundamentalists waiting for the One Might and Strong and more.
There are numerous blogs out there pushing this from all angles.  Perhaps Whitmer was just the first.

Good thing scripture says the keys were restored to Joseph for the final time.

Edited August 4, 2017 by JLHPROF

[Kenngo1969]

Good news, Avatar!  This is The Dispensation of the Fullness of Times!  

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Good news, Avatar!  This is The Dispensation of the Fullness of Times!  

And the gospel will never again be taken from the earth before the sons of Levi do offer again an offering in righteousness (see Doctrine and Covenants 13).

 

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Good news, Avatar!  This is The Dispensation of the Fullness of Times!  

Which means we have an open canon and the restoration is ongoing.  As we receive revelations individually and a church the restoration continues. No need for a new one

[MiserereNobis]

Why did God allow apostasy during the early Christian time, but won't allow it now?

How does God keep apostasy from happening now, when it happened before?

[JLHPROF]

50 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Why did God allow apostasy during the early Christian time, but won't allow it now?

Time periods and temporal time limits.
7 dispensations, 7 restorations, and 7,000 years.  Time's up!
 

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How does God keep apostasy from happening now, when it happened before?

He doesn't.  Apostasy is natural unless you have perfect knowledge.  We make mistakes.
He has just promised that he won't allow it to go so far as to drive the restored gospel from the earth.  Christ will return before that point for the winding up scene.

At least, that's the Mormon view.

[MiserereNobis]

7 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Time periods and temporal time limits.
7 dispensations, 7 restorations, and 7,000 years.  Time's up!

God allows a people to go into apostasy and lose the possibilities of salvation and blessings because of some sort of schedule? Does that mean the schedule is more important than the individual souls affected by the schedule? Why?

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He has just promised that he won't allow it to go so far as to drive the restored gospel from the earth.  Christ will return before that point for the winding up scene.

Why didn't He make that promise to the early Christians, the ones who were closest to Christ and knew people who knew Christ?

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Why did God allow apostasy during the early Christian time, but won't allow it now?

How does God keep apostasy from happening now, when it happened before?

My answer:

God allows us agency.  Men screwed up before and can screw up again.  I personally believe though that the church has shown enough flexibility this time around to keep changing with the times.

Kind of like "sensus fidei".   Times change and you either keep up or miss the bus.  We are no longer a pre-literate agrarian culture and fixed doctrines in a world constantly changing just won't retain believers.

Of course that does not work if you believe in objective and unchanging TRVTH, ie VERITAS engraved on the pediment in stone.

 

[mfbukowski]

30 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

God allows a people to go into apostasy and lose the possibilities of salvation and blessings because of some sort of schedule? Does that mean the schedule is more important than the individual souls affected by the schedule? Why?

Why didn't He make that promise to the early Christians, the ones who were closest to Christ and knew people who knew Christ?

1- Nothing lost.  They will learn it all on the other side and have their ordinances performed.  No harm, no foul.  Those who would have accepted it are fine.

2- He did.  He promised that that generation would not pass away before he returned.  Oops.  Sounds like a slip in the schedule to me.  That's one for you to justify.

EVERY Catholic asks those same questions, understandably

Edited August 4, 2017 by mfbukowski

[MiserereNobis]

3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

My answer:

God allows us agency.  Men screwed up before and can screw up again.  I personally believe though that the church has shown enough flexibility this time around to keep changing with the times.

Are you saying that Mormons now are more faithful and less prone to screw up than Christians before? Christians who knew those who knew Christ?

Quote

Kind of like "sensus fidei".   Times change and you either keep up or miss the bus.  We are no longer a pre-literate agrarian culture and fixed doctrines in a world constantly changing just won't retain believers.

Of course that does not work if you believe in objective and unchanging TRVTH, ie VERITAS engraved on the pediment in stone.

I love Latin carved in stone!

I understand your reference to "sensus fidei," somewhat like a 'zeitgeist.' But that takes us back to truth again. No wonder you keep harping on it

 

[MiserereNobis]

3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

1- Nothing lost.  They will learn it all on the other side and have their ordinances performed.  No harm, no foul.  Those who would have accepted it are fine.

Then why the huge missionary push? This seems to contradict the LDS church focus on missionary work.

Quote

2- He did.  He promised that that generation would not pass away before he returned.  Oops.  Sounds like a slip in the schedule to me.  That's one for you to justify.

I'll just say touche and leave it at that for now

 

[Avatar4321]

7 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Why did God allow apostasy during the early Christian time, but won't allow it now?

How does God keep apostasy from happening now, when it happened before?

my understanding is apostasy would occur in this dispensation as well except Christ will come before it had time.

[Avatar4321]

6 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

God allows a people to go into apostasy and lose the possibilities of salvation and blessings because of some sort of schedule? Does that mean the schedule is more important than the individual souls affected by the schedule? Why?

Why didn't He make that promise to the early Christians, the ones who were closest to Christ and knew people who knew Christ?

the Church knows Christ now. But that doesn't answer the question.

the church is a type for Jesus Christ. Often called the body of Christ. And to be a perfect type, the body of Christ had to die and be restored. The death and resurrection of the Church is a representation of the death and resurrection of Christ.

 

[Avatar4321]

12 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I don't know about David Whitmer, but the idea of a second restoration has been used by numerous false prophets.

Jim Harmston and his Manti group, some of Denver Snuffer's followers, some Independent fundamentalists waiting for the One Might and Strong and more.
There are numerous blogs out there pushing this from all angles.  Perhaps Whitmer was just the first.

Good thing scripture says the keys were restored to Joseph for the final time.

what i remember it was a discussion between david and oliver. And i got the impression that it wasn't aa much a second restoration of the keys but more a next phase where the Lord pours his power onto the saints yo redeem zion but without quotes i don't know

[HappyJackWagon]

11 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

And the gospel will never again be taken from the earth before the sons of Levi do offer again an offering in righteousness (see Doctrine and Covenants 13).

 

Can you refresh my memory about what the "offering" is, precisely? I don't recall.

Just spit-balling, but is it possible that an apostasy could occur after the sons of Levi have offered their righteous offering?

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JLHPROF- I don't know about David Whitmer, but the idea of a second restoration has been used by numerous false prophets.

Of course you're right about break-off, apostate groups using this idea of another restoration on numerous occasions. Of course Pres. Uchtdorf referred to it as a "continuing restoration" which means that the restoration is incomplete but ongoing. So instead of something being a "second" restoration maybe it's just "continuing".

[mfbukowski]

7 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Are you saying that Mormons now are more faithful and less prone to screw up than Christians before? Christians who knew those who knew Christ?

I love Latin carved in stone!

I understand your reference to "sensus fidei," somewhat like a 'zeitgeist.' But that takes us back to truth again. No wonder you keep harping on it

 

1- No, but our communication might be a bit better now, ya think??  Like maybe some Bishop in 100 AD in Whatchastan decides to tweak things a little and there is no one to regulate that or no apostle stops by for a hundred years or so, and then a Bishop in Grabova tweaks it a little the other way?   And generation to generation you might get a little doctrinal drift because no one can read or write?  Kind of like playing "Telephone"- the message gets a bit out of whack over time.  And then we have Constantine going all homoousios https://www.britannica.com/topic/homoousios on us.  And as you have heard a hundred times, I think "consubstantial" is not in the Bible.

2- And regarding truth, if you can give me a definition that makes sense I will be glad to adopt it.  But correspondence to a realm no one can experience is not my kind of "truth"    There is no way to verify what cannot be seen or said coherently.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Can you refresh my memory about what the "offering" is, precisely? I don't recall.

Just spit-balling, but is it possible that an apostasy could occur after the sons of Levi have offered their righteous offering?

D&C 128:24. 

[HappyJackWagon]

8 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

D&C 128:24. 

Thanks. So temple work has been restored (the offering).  So is it possible there could be an apostasy after that has occurred. "And the gospel will never again be taken from the earth before the sons of Levi do offer again an offering in righteousness." There's a timeline qualification there that seems to have been reached.

[Scott Lloyd]

19 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Thanks. So temple work has been restored (the offering).  So is it possible there could be an apostasy after that has occurred. "And the gospel will never again be taken from the earth before the sons of Levi do offer again an offering in righteousness." There's a timeline qualification there that seems to have been reached.

I don't believe that is all that is entailed in the offering. Joseph Smith taught that blood sacrifice by the sons of Levi will be restored attendant to the Second Coming long enough to fulfill the prophesied restitution of all things. 

I read this passage as saying that at no point between now and the Second Coming will the priesthood keys be taken from the earth. 

Edited August 4, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[stemelbow]

It certainly feels like a second restoration is due. 

[Bernard Gui]

Just a point to clarify things.

The Apostacy was the result of the loss of Priesthood keys given by Jesus to the original  Twelve. The Catholics believe they persist through Peter and the Popes. Mormons believe they were lost upon the death of the Apostles, that they were restored by Peter to Joseph Smith, and will never again be lost. Simple as that.

 

Edited August 4, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[CV75]

11 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Why did God allow apostasy during the early Christian time, but won't allow it now?

How does God keep apostasy from happening now, when it happened before?

The reason He allowed it (and I believe even found it even necessary): "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit." Jesus had to die to resurrect and resurrect us all. He had to suffer to overcome all sin for us all. He won't allow an apostasy now / it isn't necessary now because the purpose of the death of the Church, the restoration, has started and is in progress. It would be like retracting the gift of resurrection once it already rolled out.

He keeps it from happening again by coming before it can: "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened." And in some ways He has already come: “When Satan is bound in a single home—when Satan is bound in a single life—the Millennium has already begun in that home, in that life” (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, ed. Edward L. Kimball [1982], 172).

Edited August 4, 2017 by CV75

[CV75]

3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Can you refresh my memory about what the "offering" is, precisely? I don't recall.

Just spit-balling, but is it possible that an apostasy could occur after the sons of Levi have offered their righteous offering?

The Aaronic Priesthood will not be taken from the earth “until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness.” This activity by the sons of Levi are to occur after Elijah restores the Priesthood so they can resume what they had lost (see Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.172): "

The offering is both figurative (dedicating the holy temple to the Lord, D&C 128:24) and literal (an actual rite): From Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.173: “…it is generally supposed that sacrifice was entirely done away when the Great Sacrifice [i.e.,] the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus was offered up, and that there will be no necessity for the ordinance of sacrifice in future; but those who assert this are certainly not acquainted with the duties, privileges and authority of the Priesthood, or with the Prophets.

“The offering of sacrifice has ever been connected and forms a part of the duties of the Priesthood. It began with the Priesthood, and will be continued until after the coming of Christ, from generation to generation. We frequently have mention made of the offering of sacrifice by the servants of the Most High in ancient days, prior to the law of Moses; which ordinances will be continued when the Priesthood is restored with all its authority, power and blessings."

An apostasy cannot occur upon the restitution of all things. It would be like death occurring after a resurrection.From Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.173: “These sacrifices, as well as every ordinance belonging to the Priesthood, will, when the Temple of the Lord shall be built, and the sons of Levi be purified, be fully restored and attended to in all their powers, ramifications, and blessings. This ever did and ever will exist when the powers of the Melchizedek Priesthood are sufficiently manifest; else how can the restitution of all things spoken of by the Holy Prophets be brought to pass?”

Better to read the whole thing in context of the sons of Levi, pp 172-173: http://www.boap.org/LDS/Joseph-Smith/Teachings/T4.html

Edited August 4, 2017 by CV75

[Maidservant]

11 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

apostasy and lose the possibilities of salvation and blessings because of some sort of schedule?

In the LDS view, apostasy does not mean that there is a possibility of losing salvation and blessings in the eternities.  We do the work for the dead.  In the meantime, there were tens of thousands of people on the earth who lived by the light and spirit they had and prepared the way for the restoration. They are blessed for that. (Don't even have to have been Christian.) The restoration is simply a loosening of the creeds that keep these good people in chains while on earth so we can enjoy our salvation now as well.