faith and/or works Is what we believe, or what we do most important?

[Meerkat]

We Latter day Saints do have some unique doctrines in all of Christendom.  I can, in good conscience, affirm that.  The same can be said of Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, Jehovah's Witnesses, Jews, etc.  I don't doubt that there are true believers in every sect, of which I am one. What is most important: what we believe, or what we do?  What opens the door to the Celestial City? 

Edited July 26, 2017 by Meerkat

[Calm]

What we do are the beliefs we put the most value in.  We can believe wonderful things on a theoretical level, but when it comes to what we put our resources in, if it is selfish or oppressive, all the highminded thoughts or speeches mean nothing.

[rpn]

I don't think it is believe or action, I think that it is either or both and maybe additional --- all that that help us become what our Heavenly Parents have planned for us to become.

[Robert F. Smith]

14 hours ago, Meerkat said:

We Latter day Saints do have some unique doctrines in all of Christendom.  I can, in good conscience, affirm that.  The same can be said of Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, Jehovah's Witnesses, Jews, etc.  I don't doubt that there are true believers in every sect, of which I am one. What is most important: what we believe, or what we do?  What opens the door to the Celestial City? 

Not sure that we can so easily separate or distinguish theory from praxis.  But, when push comes to shove, praxis is more important.  Generally speaking, actions do speak more loudly than words, although good praxis may take place for ignoble reasons.

[Maidservant]

If you are not moved to act and live on it, you don't believe.  I no longer call 'thinking something is the case' or 'being convinced that something is the case' as BELIEF.  Rather, I consider BELIEFS to be the programs that we operate from on a minute to minute, daily basis; the energy that our body is made up of:  thus, what we do.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Maidservant said:

If you are not moved to act and live on it, you don't believe.  I no longer call 'thinking something is the case' or 'being convinced that something is the case' as BELIEF.  Rather, I consider BELIEFS to be the programs that we operate from on a minute to minute, daily basis; the energy that our body is made up of:  thus, what we do.

Yes, and many scholars consider religion to be belief in actu.  That is why James the Brother of Jesus says:

"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."  James 1:27

[Jane_Doe]

16 hours ago, Meerkat said:

We Latter day Saints do have some unique doctrines in all of Christendom.  I can, in good conscience, affirm that.  The same can be said of Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, Jehovah's Witnesses, Jews, etc.  I don't doubt that there are true believers in every sect, of which I am one. What is most important: what we believe, or what we do?  What opens the door to the Celestial City? 

Christ opens the Celestial doors.  Not any part of us.  We walk through those gates with Him by fully accepting Him.  Fully accepting means not holding any part of us back: not words, not beliefs, not actions, not thoughts.  We give it ALL to Him. 

[visitor200]

Begin with an idea.

Sow an idea, reap a thought

Sow a thought, reap a belief

Sow a belief, reap an action

Sow an action, reap a habit

Sow a habit, reap a discipline

Sow a discipline, reap an attainment

Sow an attainment, reap a reputation

Sow a reputation, reap a character

Sow a character, reap a destination

Sow a destination, reap an idea

Sow an idea, reap a thought . . .

[The Nehor]

This is like asking which half of the scissors is doing the cutting.

[ksfisher]

38 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

This is like asking which half of the scissors is doing the cutting.

The half you fell on when you were running with them!

[Meerkat]

6 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Christ opens the Celestial doors.  Not any part of us.  We walk through those gates with Him by fully accepting Him.  Fully accepting means not holding any part of us back: not words, not beliefs, not actions, not thoughts.  We give it ALL to Him. 

So are you saying we play no part in opening those doors other than believing that Jesus Christ is our Savior?  Or are you saying that our faith is so complete that our thoughts are His thoughts, our actions His actions, our words are His words as we actually visit the widows and fatherless in their affliction rather than merely pray for them?  I think the latter is what you are saying, right?  If so, I hope I haven't mischaracterized my Protestant friends who have shared similar viewpoints with me over the years because based on your comment, I accept that point. Salvation appears to require some effort on my part.  First, believing.  Second, acting or doing in accordance with that belief.

[Jane_Doe]

25 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

So are you saying we play no part in opening those doors other than believing that Jesus Christ is our Savior?  Or are you saying that our faith is so complete that our thoughts are His thoughts, our actions His actions, our words are His words as we actually visit the widows and fatherless in their affliction rather than merely pray for them?  I think the latter is what you are saying, right?  If so, I hope I haven't mischaracterized my Protestant friends who have shared similar viewpoints with me over the years because based on your comment, I accept that point. Salvation appears to require some effort on my part.  First, believing.  Second, acting or doing in accordance with that belief.

You are correct in all the bolded stuff.  

[visitor200]

We become what we think about most of the time.

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, ksfisher said:

The half you fell on when you were running with them!

I only run with knives to avoid this philosophical conundrum.

Mostly butter knives.

[CV75]

On 7/26/2017 at 2:24 AM, Meerkat said:

We Latter day Saints do have some unique doctrines in all of Christendom.  I can, in good conscience, affirm that.  The same can be said of Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, Jehovah's Witnesses, Jews, etc.  I don't doubt that there are true believers in every sect, of which I am one. What is most important: what we believe, or what we do?  What opens the door to the Celestial City? 

From Alma 32, what we believe (faith) and what we do (knowledge) are indispensable to each other, making them equally important. I think what we believe and what we do are also essentially the same thing when they define what we are.

[thesometimesaint]

Show me what you do, and I'll know what you believe.

[Stargazer]

[Meerkat]

14 hours ago, CV75 said:

From Alma 32, what we believe (faith) and what we do (knowledge) are indispensable to each other, making them equally important. I think what we believe and what we do are also essentially the same thing when they define what we are.

Alma 32 speaks much of faith.  It also speaks of repentance.  It speaks of enduring to the end. It describes how one who knows the will of God and chooses not to do it may be condemned. How does that example compare with the athiest who does not believe there is a God, but he loves his fellow beings and treats them accordingly, as if he did know and follow God? Will his imperfect efforts to live a virtuous life save him? Or not?

10 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Are actions enough if one is acting out of love for his or her fellow beings, but does not believe there is a God?  In other words, can a well behaved atheist be saved, if their thoughts are in harmony with their good actions?  

Is Calvin (a believer) saved in this instance, even though angry, while kind Hobbs (say, a non believer,) is condemned for his non belief?  How will God judge between two such characters?  And if faith and actions are not equally balanced, which carries greater weight with God in the final judgment? Or does it make any difference?

 

Edited July 28, 2017 by Meerkat

[hagoth7]

On 7/26/2017 at 5:18 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Yes, and many scholars consider religion to be belief in actu.  That is why James the Brother of Jesus says:

"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."  James 1:27

Is the last "and" in the Greek text.. .or is it gloss that distracts from James' message??

Edited July 28, 2017 by hagoth7

[Robert F. Smith]

34 minutes ago, hagoth7 said:

Is the last "and" in the Greek text.. .or is it gloss that distracts from James' message??

No, it isn't, but the sentence doesn't need it.  Understand it however you like.

[Stargazer]

3 hours ago, Meerkat said:

Alma 32 speaks much of faith.  It also speaks of repentance.  It speaks of enduring to the end. It describes how one who knows the will of God and chooses not to do it may be condemned. How does that example compare with the athiest who does not believe there is a God, but he loves his fellow beings and treats them accordingly, as if he did know and follow God? Will his imperfect efforts to live a virtuous life save him? Or not?

Are actions enough if one is acting out of love for his or her fellow beings, but does not believe there is a God?  In other words, can a well behaved atheist be saved, if their thoughts are in harmony with their good actions?  

Is Calvin (a believer) saved in this instance, even though angry, while kind Hobbs (say, a non believer,) is condemned for his non belief?  How will God judge between two such characters?  And if faith and actions are not equally balanced, which carries greater weight with God in the final judgment? Or does it make any difference?

 

I can't quote or cite it, but I seem to remember the Lord saying that those who do righteousness, even though not believers, will be rewarded, but ... and here I'm unsure about it.  

The thing about salvation from sin is this: being "saved" means to not be required to atone for one's own sins, but Christ's atonement covers you.  If one rejects Christ's atonement, one will have to suffer as Christ suffered, but from how I understand the doctrine taught in D&C 76, those who atone for their own sins inherit the Telestial Kingdom.  And those who are covered by Christ's atonement, but who are not "valiant in the testimony of Jesus" (including those who rejected Christ in mortality, but accepted Him in the Spirit World), inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom.  Those who are saved from sin by Christ's atonement, and who are valiant in the testimony of Jesus, inherit the Celestial Kingdom.

So, kind Hobbes, who rejected Christ's atonement, and does not repent of his sins (because he's still a sinner, regardless of whether he was kind to others on occasion) remains a sinner and must suffer for his own sins -- but it seems to me that he might enjoy a higher status in the Telestial Kingdom than one who was a complete scalawag.  Meanwhile, Calvin the believer, who has repented of his sins, is a partaker of Christ's atonement, and inherits at least the Terrestrial Kingdom.  If Calvin has not repented, then it seems like he would be in the Telestial with Hobbes.

I'm glad I'm not the Judge.

Is it likely that an atheist who rejects Christ in this life going to maintain that rejection in the Spirit World?  I doubt that many atheists would -- since their survival past death would be evidence that they were wrong.  So it seems likely that most atheists who rejected Christ in mortality will accept Him in the next.  And having done so, will be saved in the Terrestrial Kingdom.

[CV75]

6 hours ago, Meerkat said:

Alma 32 speaks much of faith.  It also speaks of repentance.  It speaks of enduring to the end. It describes how one who knows the will of God and chooses not to do it may be condemned. How does that example compare with the athiest who does not believe there is a God, but he loves his fellow beings and treats them accordingly, as if he did know and follow God? Will his imperfect efforts to live a virtuous life save him? Or not?

Are actions enough if one is acting out of love for his or her fellow beings, but does not believe there is a God?  In other words, can a well behaved atheist be saved, if their thoughts are in harmony with their good actions?  

Is Calvin (a believer) saved in this instance, even though angry, while kind Hobbs (say, a non believer,) is condemned for his non belief?  How will God judge between two such characters?  And if faith and actions are not equally balanced, which carries greater weight with God in the final judgment? Or does it make any difference?

I think the intentional atheist who does not believe there is a God, but loves his fellow beings and treats them accordingly does indeed love them and himself, but he intentionally does not love or treat God well. Mechanically, or the form or results thereof may seem to the casual observer to be the same, and His love and actions may reflect somewhat the light of Christ, but by denying the Source he only “prospers according to his genius,” and that alone, because those he impacts are also recipients of the light of Christ and may develop the faith he refuses.

His imperfect efforts to live a virtuous life, which the believers also do, will not save him any more than the believer. Grace is the essential for both, and both can only be saved to the degree they receive that grace and recognize its Source (minimally resurrection, bowing and confessing to God).

So I’d say that Calvin must get over his anger just as Hobbes must develop an intentional belief if they are going to rejoice beyond the blessing of immortality. I think this is how God will judge them. Alma 32 teaches that faith (the power of projected action) and knowledge (the power of completed action) are inherently equally balanced; there is no way that they cannot be. I’d go so far as to say they are different expressions or forms of the same power.

Edited July 28, 2017 by CV75

[Jeanne]

On 7/26/2017 at 6:29 PM, visitor200 said:

Begin with an idea.

Sow an idea, reap a thought

Sow a thought, reap a belief

Sow a belief, reap an action

Sow an action, reap a habit

Sow a habit, reap a discipline

Sow a discipline, reap an attainment

Sow an attainment, reap a reputation

Sow a reputation, reap a character

Sow a character, reap a destination

Sow a destination, reap an idea

Sow an idea, reap a thought . . .

I love this!!  Welcome!!

[hagoth7]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I can't quote or cite it, but I seem to remember the Lord saying that those who do righteousness, even though not believers, will be rewarded, but ... and here I'm unsure about it.  

Thinking of Matthew 10:41?

[Meerkat]

3 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

Thinking of Matthew 10:41?

That is a very interesting scripture.  It never had occurred to me in the context of the question. Here is the context of verse 41:

"40 ¶ He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward.
42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward."

That is food for thought, for sure.  Verse 41 by itself can be taken a couple of ways: First, a prophet's reward is different than a righteous man's reward.  If that is the point, it would support Stargazers take on D&C 76.  A second view might be that in accepting a prophet's testimony, or a good man's testimony, we would in neither case lose our reward (in this case a great blessing of testimony of Living Water from either source.)  I take that view as being supported by verse 42.

Stargazer hit on the confusion I have regarding being judged on faith, works or both. Contemplating 1 Peter chapters 3 and 4, Doctrine and Covenants 138:31-34 appears to open the Celestial tent a little wider than D&C 76:

"31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.
32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.
33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,
34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Verse 32 says the Gospel was taught to those who had never had a knowledge of the truth (perhaps athiests.) and to those who had heard the Good News in mortality, maybe even had a testimony of it, but we're ultimately overcome by sin and rejected what they had perhaps once known.

Verse 34 talks about them qualifying for the sacred Temple ordinances.  This interpretation gives me hope for children who have chosen a thornier path than the Gospel offers in mortality.  Verses 57 through 59 seem to indicate those who accept the Gospel in the Spirit World will yet have opportunity to manifest good works, thus "pay the penalty for their transgressions."

Another verse that I take comfort in is 2 Nephi 10:2 "2 For behold, the promises which we have obtained are promises unto us according to the flesh; wherefore, as it has been shown unto me that many of our children shall perish in the flesh because of unbelief, nevertheless, God will be merciful unto many; and our children shall be restored, that they may come to that which will give them the true knowledge of their Redeemer."

That is another scripture that supports the conclusion I lean on that Heavenly Father is more merciful than I am, and He has put in place another layer of opportunity for those who were unwilling or unable to overcome in mortality.

I find the scriptures confusing on this point. Therefore, I appeal to this faithful and knowledgeable group for clarification and understanding.  Thank you for the thought and life energy you are giving this question.  Much appreciated, my friends.

Edited July 28, 2017 by Meerkat