faith and/or works Is what we believe, or what we do most important?

[ksfisher]

35 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

Stargazer hit on the confusion I have regarding being judged on faith, works or both. Contemplating 1 Peter chapters 3 and 4, Doctrine and Covenants 138:31-34 appears to open the Celestial tent a little wider than D&C 76:

"31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.
32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.
33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,
34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

 

I don't see that these verses say anything about the reward these people will earn.  They seem to be saying that in order to be judged justly they needed to be taught the gospel just as if they had been taught in their mortal lives. 

[Tacenda]

Definitely what we do is most important, IMO. But the two go hand in hand, if you believe you don't want to do anything good, then you won't. 

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Definitely what we do is most important, IMO. But the two go hand in hand, if you believe you don't want to do anything good, then you won't. 

I am with Tacenda..one does not work without the other.  Actions speak louder than words.

[Tacenda]

46 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I am with Tacenda..one does not work without the other.  Actions speak louder than words.

I have a saying on a plaque, that I know I need to work on big time...

"You can preach a better sermon with your life than with your lips"

I've shared it on the board once before. 

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

I have a saying on a plaque, that I know I need to work on big time...

"You can preach a better sermon with your life than with your lips"

I've shared it on the board once before. 

I love it...and should live my life that way and keep my mouth shut!

[Tacenda]

4 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I love it...and should live my life that way and keep my mouth shut!

No, preach on Jeanne!! 

[Meerkat]

11 hours ago, ksfisher said:

I don't see that these verses say anything about the reward these people will earn.  They seem to be saying that in order to be judged justly they needed to be taught the gospel just as if they had been taught in their mortal lives. 

Maybe sometimes we see what we want to see in certain scriptures.  What you describe makes sense and reconciles the conflict between Doctrine and Covenants 138 and  Alma 34: which states 31 Yea, I would that ye would come forth and harden not your hearts any longer; for behold, now is the time and the day of your salvation; and therefore, if ye will repent and harden not your hearts, immediately shall the great plan of redemption be brought about unto you.
32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.
33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, 31 Yea, I would that ye would come forth and harden not your hearts any longer; for behold, now is the time and the day of your salvation; and therefore, if ye will repent and harden not your hearts, immediately shall the great plan of redemption be brought about unto you.
32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.
33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

I hope you're not right, but if you are, it does reconcile the competing scriptures. I need to dig more into D&C:138.  

Edited July 29, 2017 by Meerkat

[Guest]

On July 26, 2017 at 2:24 AM, Meerkat said:

We Latter day Saints do have some unique doctrines in all of Christendom.  I can, in good conscience, affirm that.  The same can be said of Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, Jehovah's Witnesses, Jews, etc.  I don't doubt that there are true believers in every sect, of which I am one. What is most important: what we believe, or what we do?  What opens the door to the Celestial City? 

Belief is what animates us into action, they are two sides of the same coin. 

[Meerkat]

On 8/5/2017 at 6:02 PM, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

Belief is what animates us into action, they are two sides of the same coin. 

I agree with you Bill, in most cases.  Works should become animated in a life transformed by Jesus Christ.  My dear Baptist neighbor says faith in Christ is all God requires.  Not dead works.  When it comes to entering the Celestial City, devils who believe may not be animated the same as you or me, nor Christians who have returned to the mire.

James said faith without works is dead.  My take on the scriptures is that works without faith are alive, and will take us further than belief in Christ with no commitment to back it up.  I believe those works done, worshiping God unaware, will be joined with faith in Christ in that great day when every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ.

My Dad was distressed that he could not obtain that faith that many of us seemed to have.  He would honestly lament "Lord, I believe.  Help thou mine unbelief."  I don't know that he ever reached the point he could say "I know that my Redeemed liveth."  I do know he was one of the most honest, gentle, virtuous, kind, generous, loving men I have ever known.  His example did more to lead me to Christ, and ultimately the Book of Mormon and membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints than probably anything else.  Yet that faith eluded him throughout his life.  

He is long gone now, and I don't know that he ever found that faith in his life.  Hence, my question: what is more important, what we believe or what we do?  My neighbor believes, without that confession of Christ, he is on his way to the hotter regions.  That does not reflect the character of the God I worship.  If Dad is not in the Celestial Kingdom, I would be surprised if I could make it.

Repentance is all about changing our behavior from evil to good.  Yes, we are sent to preach first faith in Christ. Repentance requires a sincere effort to change from evil to good. It is based on action as much as belief.

Revelation 22, in my opinion, describes a judgment that will work like this:  "12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

I hope to spend eternity with a society that is filled with honest, gentle, virtuous, kind, generous, loving people.  They will have faith in Christ in that day.  But today, they may only be good.  I believe good actions will trump belief only when it comes to entering into that city.  I also agree with you that ultimately love for Jesus Christ will animate our actions in eternity.

 

Edited August 7, 2017 by Meerkat

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Meerkat said:

I agree with you Bill, in most cases.  Works should become animated in a life transformed by Jesus Christ.  My dear Baptist neighbor says faith in Christ is all God requires.  Not dead works.  When it comes to entering the Celestial City, devils who believe may not be animated the same as you or me, nor Christians who have returned to the mire. 

 

The "Devils and demons" work, they know and believe. But having lost all, they act as spoilers, such is their hate for God and for us. 

[Helmuth]

Do good, get good.

Do the acts of Abraham, get the reward of Abraham.

Don't?  Don't.

Volitional acts are all that matter, and all we can justly be judged on. 

Of course, thinking/believing/attituding and other acts of mental control and discipline are also highly volitional acts. 

[3DOP]

Doing is predicated on believing. Wrong belief does not produce right action. I vote for believing as most important. I don't think faith and works are separable. But faith comes before works.

Edited August 15, 2017 by 3DOP

[Meerkat]

6 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

Doing is predicated on believing. Wrong belief does not produce right action. I vote for believing as most important. I don't think faith and works are separable. But faith comes before works.

I see your point.  I can see how it can work that way, and hope that I am in harmony with your thought at this stage of my life.  

I do see some justification for works separate from faith. Maybe this parable doesn't apply due to repentance (possible change of belief,) But it struck me as a defense of works:  

28 ¶ But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
            29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
            30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
            31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
            32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him."  Matt. 21.

[Helmuth]

8 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Wrong belief does not produce right action.

Sure it can.

And that right action will be rewarded.

[3DOP]

10 hours ago, Meerkat said:

I see your point.  I can see how it can work that way, and hope that I am in harmony with your thought at this stage of my life.  

I do see some justification for works separate from faith. Maybe this parable doesn't apply due to repentance (possible change of belief,) But it struck me as a defense of works:  

28 ¶ But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
            29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
            30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
            31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
            32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him."  Matt. 21.

In the example you give, take note of v.32, the "sinners" who made no pretense of obedience subsequently became obedient: "and the publicans and harlots believed him".  Belief preceded work. Likewise with the chief priests who had been quizzing Our Lord about His authority. They who professed to do God's will, subsequently became disobedient. The reason? "For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not."

In the examples given above both parties actions were consistent with what they believed.

[3DOP]

5 hours ago, Helmuth said:

Sure it can.

And that right action will be rewarded.

Helmuth hi.

I doubt if we disagree as much as might appear. A "maxim" which I have occasionally repeated in these forums is; "Nobody is wrong about everything". I might also say, individually speaking about those of us who are not God or the Blessed Virgin Mary, or the good angels, or the glorified saints, that "Nobody is right about everything". One can have wrong beliefs and do good things. Assuredly. But what I would insist upon is that the good deeds can not spring from the wrong beliefs. It is because of the good that is mixed with bad, that we who are not perfectly confirmed in good or evil, perform both good and evil deeds.

According to what I am trying to say, when one with bad beliefs does good, it confirms that total depravity is a lie. If the apparently bad belief produces good, it is an illusion. Where good acts appear, it is a good belief, not a bad one, that made it happen. Hitler was reportedly very good and playful with children. Must we insist that this was impossible? Can we not allow that there was some good belief that made Hitler into a nice companion for children, without concluding that Nazism led to his being a pleasant adult companion to children? Nobody is wrong about everything. Nobody is "totally depraved", and I suggest that this is why everybody does some good, even if not meritorious of eternal life.

Edited August 15, 2017 by 3DOP

[3DOP]

PS: I just saw this is in Social Hall. Sorry to be argumentative...It seems like a topic more worthy of General Discussion.

[Helmuth]

1 hour ago, 3DOP said:

PS: I just saw this is in Social Hall. Sorry to be argumentative...It seems like a topic more worthy of General Discussion.

Not at all, 3DOP -- if anyone is to blame it is I; certainly I was the first one to throw a contradiction!

Here's a scripture that may support your view:

For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing.

For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness.

For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God.

And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such.

Wherefore, a man being evil cannot do that which is good; neither will he give a good gift.

For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.

-- Mri 7

And like you say, we're not necessarily disagreeing.  But, phrasing it as if it is a disagreement makes it more fun -- and clearer!

[Meerkat]

4 hours ago, 3DOP said:

In the example you give, take note of v.32, the "sinners" who made no pretense of obedience subsequently became obedient: "and the publicans and harlots believed him".  Belief preceded work. Likewise with the chief priests who had been quizzing Our Lord about His authority. They who professed to do God's will, subsequently became disobedient. The reason? "For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not."

In the examples given above both parties actions were consistent with what they believed.

Another way to look at the subject has to do with sins of ommission.  For example, if we believe in Christ, but make our living as a thief, do we really believe in Christ, or have faith in Christ?  In the Judgement, is our belief in Christ going to save us?  Or will our works condemn us?

Or turning it around, if we aren't convinced that God exists, but are honest in all our dealings, faithful to Our spouse, love our neighbor will our works save us, or will our lack of faith condemn us?  Hence, the question-- is what we believe or what we do most important?

[JLHPROF]

Faith or works?
I'm with Stephen Robinson on this one.  A pox on both their houses.

It's both.