Damien the Leper Posted July 10, 2017 Posted July 10, 2017 Covenantal nomism, in opposition to merittheology, is the belief that 1st century Jews in the land of Israel did not believe in works righteousness. Essentially, it is the belief that one is brought into the Abrahamic covenantthrough birth and stays in the covenant through works. E. P. Sanders and other proponents of Covenantal nomism do not ask the question of whether this is simply another type of works righteousness, since works are necessary to maintain standing in the covenant. It suggests that the Jewish view of relationship with God is that keeping the law is based only on a prior understanding of relationship with God. The "structure" of covenantal nomism can be described as follows: (1) God has chosen Israel and (2) given the law. The law implies both (3) God’s promise to maintain the election and (4) the requirement to obey. (5) God rewards obedience and punishes transgression. (6) The law provides for means of atonement and atonement results in (7) maintenance or re-establishment of the covenantal relationship. (8) All those who are maintained in the covenant by obedience, atonement and God’s mercy belong to the group that will be saved. An important interpretation of the first and last points is that election and, ultimately, salvation are considered to be by God’s mercy rather than human achievement. I can't love this theology enough. Any one else a fan of CN? 1
bluebell Posted July 10, 2017 Posted July 10, 2017 That's interesting. It matches LDS beliefs, with baptism (being born of the water) being the birth which gives people entrance. LDS also believe that works (obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel coupled with repentance when falling short) are required, not for salvation, but to stay within the covenant which provides salvation. 1
Jeanne Posted July 11, 2017 Posted July 11, 2017 2 minutes ago, bluebell said: That's interesting. It matches LDS beliefs, with baptism (being born of the water) being the birth which gives people entrance. LDS also believe that works (obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel coupled with repentance when falling short) are required, not for salvation, but to stay within the covenant which provides salvation. yes, when I was reading the OP, I saw that most everything was familiar with the beliefs of what I grew up with.
Duncan Posted July 11, 2017 Posted July 11, 2017 I remember in the 1990's our then Stake President teaching this, he said the question isn't whether or not you want into the Kingdom but do you want to stay in-after you've made covenants of course-so "works" show you want to stay in. Then again he was a dentist to the stars so who knows 2
The Nehor Posted July 11, 2017 Posted July 11, 2017 Except many LDS do not come in through birth within the covenant. 1
strappinglad Posted July 11, 2017 Posted July 11, 2017 (edited) Good thing you included a definition Val. For a second I thought the thread was going to be about NOMs who fake belief in the covenants. As for the OP , I find no serious flaws in the idea. Edited July 11, 2017 by strappinglad 1
mfbukowski Posted July 11, 2017 Posted July 11, 2017 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: Except many LDS do not come in through birth within the covenant. Sorry. Everyone knows that if you don't have pioneer ancestors you are damned, especially in July. 1
mfbukowski Posted July 11, 2017 Posted July 11, 2017 6 hours ago, Duncan said: I remember in the 1990's our then Stake President teaching this, he said the question isn't whether or not you want into the Kingdom but do you want to stay in-after you've made covenants of course-so "works" show you want to stay in. Then again he was a dentist to the stars so who knows There are stars in Canada?
Kenngo1969 Posted July 11, 2017 Posted July 11, 2017 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Sorry. Everyone knows that if you don't have pioneer ancestors you are damned, especially in July. "If I had a house in Saint Jarge and a house in Hell , I'd rent out the one in Saint Jarge, and live in Hell!" —Reportedly, J. Golden Kimball 1
Kenngo1969 Posted July 11, 2017 Posted July 11, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Sorry. Everyone knows that if you don't have pioneer ancestors you are damned, especially in July. Not to worry. There are pioneers all over the place: Arizona, Idaho, California , Italy, where my sister-in-law became the first member of the Church of Jesus Christ in her family, and even in Duncan's least favorite province, Alberta. Edited July 11, 2017 by Kenngo1969
Duncan Posted July 11, 2017 Posted July 11, 2017 5 hours ago, mfbukowski said: There are stars in Canada? Big ones!
mfbukowski Posted July 11, 2017 Posted July 11, 2017 3 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said: Not to worry. There are pioneers all over the place: Arizona, Idaho, California , Italy, where my sister-in-law became the first member of the Church of Jesus Christ in her family, and even in Duncan's least favorite province, Alberta. I never understood why people set aside a day to put pie in their ears instead of eating it. Those apples just make it hard to hear.
RevTestament Posted July 11, 2017 Posted July 11, 2017 13 hours ago, Valentinus said: Covenantal nomism, in opposition to merittheology, is the belief that 1st century Jews in the land of Israel did not believe in works righteousness. Essentially, it is the belief that one is brought into the Abrahamic covenantthrough birth and stays in the covenant through works. E. P. Sanders and other proponents of Covenantal nomism do not ask the question of whether this is simply another type of works righteousness, since works are necessary to maintain standing in the covenant. It suggests that the Jewish view of relationship with God is that keeping the law is based only on a prior understanding of relationship with God. The "structure" of covenantal nomism can be described as follows: (1) God has chosen Israel and (2) given the law. The law implies both (3) God’s promise to maintain the election and (4) the requirement to obey. (5) God rewards obedience and punishes transgression. (6) The law provides for means of atonement and atonement results in (7) maintenance or re-establishment of the covenantal relationship. (8) All those who are maintained in the covenant by obedience, atonement and God’s mercy belong to the group that will be saved. An important interpretation of the first and last points is that election and, ultimately, salvation are considered to be by God’s mercy rather than human achievement. I can't love this theology enough. Any one else a fan of CN? It's wrong, but otherwise it's OK. This part: "An important interpretation of the first and last points is that election and, ultimately, salvation are considered to be by God’s mercy rather than human achievement" - sounds like Calvinism. Israel are not the chosen people simply by election. If that were so, He would be a God respecting persons, but He says He is no respecter of persons - in other words He doesn't show any favoritism. Election by grace is really all about favoritism - God just chooses to show grace to one group, and the rest are out of luck. In Calvinism they are pre-destined to hell. In actuality Israel are the children of God, because they are foreordained as such - not just because God chose to show grace to this one group, but because essentially they earned the spot through faith, works, and God's grace before this world began - the same way we do on this world - so God is fulfilling His promise as they kept theirs. Further, the way it's worded makes it sound like no one inside the group can enter, although you may not be trying to imply this. In the Mosaic law, anyone could enter the covenant, although some people had to wait. In other words an Egyptian could not just become Jewish. They had to wait 2 generations to become one with the covenant people - so essentially their grandchildren could be considered Jewish - so an Egyptian who just decided to become Jewish was out of luck. Lastly, I don't believe one has to enter all covenants to be saved - the baptismal covenant appears to be enough. That seems to cover my initial reaction to CN - in other particulars, yes, it does sound a lot like the LDS plan of salvation.
Duncan Posted July 11, 2017 Posted July 11, 2017 1 hour ago, CV75 said: Like these: worst.and.best.show.ever! 1
hagoth7 Posted July 11, 2017 Posted July 11, 2017 7 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said: ...and even in Duncan's least favorite province, Alberta. That does it Duncan. Dukes up.
Damien the Leper Posted July 13, 2017 Author Posted July 13, 2017 On 7/11/2017 at 7:06 AM, RevTestament said: It's wrong, but otherwise it's OK. This part: "An important interpretation of the first and last points is that election and, ultimately, salvation are considered to be by God’s mercy rather than human achievement" - sounds like Calvinism. Israel are not the chosen people simply by election. If that were so, He would be a God respecting persons, but He says He is no respecter of persons - in other words He doesn't show any favoritism. Election by grace is really all about favoritism - God just chooses to show grace to one group, and the rest are out of luck. In Calvinism they are pre-destined to hell. In actuality Israel are the children of God, because they are foreordained as such - not just because God chose to show grace to this one group, but because essentially they earned the spot through faith, works, and God's grace before this world began - the same way we do on this world - so God is fulfilling His promise as they kept theirs. Further, the way it's worded makes it sound like no one inside the group can enter, although you may not be trying to imply this. In the Mosaic law, anyone could enter the covenant, although some people had to wait. In other words an Egyptian could not just become Jewish. They had to wait 2 generations to become one with the covenant people - so essentially their grandchildren could be considered Jewish - so an Egyptian who just decided to become Jewish was out of luck. Lastly, I don't believe one has to enter all covenants to be saved - the baptismal covenant appears to be enough. That seems to cover my initial reaction to CN - in other particulars, yes, it does sound a lot like the LDS plan of salvation. You got caught up on one word and have missed the essence of CN theology.
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