Missionary finding his lost brother & avoiding dogs

[CV75]

36 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Precisely I don't think the stories in the OP accomplish the kind of awareness and sensitivity we should aspire to.  

Let’s pick on the first story from Deseret News. Elder Holland was addressing mission presidents. The whole idea is that “We are sent by God to invite His children home.... We do that through the Holy Ghost, the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, on the strength of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Welcome to the divine companionship.” How does that convey a lack of awareness and sensitivity to the downtrodden and marginalized?

[hope_for_things]

46 minutes ago, hagoth7 said:

A community-building narrative will, by definition, build up the community.

Most of *those* are faith promoting.Others are to lift up feeble hands/knees...narratives that simply help us connect and take heart....fx., stories that disclose flaws and foibles that help us recalibrate with the reality that being mortal comes with the territory (fx, tearing down unhealthy versions of perfectionism). An example is the way that some speak with gratitude of Joseph's flaws and imperfections, and say that it gives them hope, that if God could work through a flawed Joseph, He just might be able to work through a flawed me too....and when *that* premise begins to stir...if it is carefully tended and nurtured...the weak things truly can/do become mighty. "I give unto men weakness that they may be humble..." https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/ether/12.27c?lang=eng#26

Yes, I really agree with this, and I've had success tactfully pointing these kinds of things out in a Sunday School environment.  I think perfectionism has been a personal struggle for me, and there were many things about church culture that triggered me related to this trait of mine, so I try to be an advocate for more charitable ways of thinking these days.  Thanks for the comments, definitely think you're demonstrating a thoughtful approach here.  

[hope_for_things]

22 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Let’s pick on the first story from Deseret News. Elder Holland was addressing mission presidents. The whole idea is that “We are sent by God to invite His children home.... We do that through the Holy Ghost, the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, on the strength of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Welcome to the divine companionship.” How does that convey a lack of awareness and sensitivity to the downtrodden and marginalized?

There have been plenty of examples shared in the thread already by people who've struggled with these kinds of stories because of the loss and hurt they've personally experienced.  I'm trying to be sensitive to those people, although I haven't experienced those kinds of feelings myself.  The closest I can come is when I was a TBM and I believed the exclusivity claims of the church, and two of my siblings have left the church and I remember feeling a sense of loss over them leaving and praying and hoping for them to return.  

But I think my experience pales in comparison to many other experiences that are more heart wrenching.  

Hollands intentions with sharing a story like this are not in question, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for intentions.  I'm more concerned with the unintended hurt and consequences.  

[hagoth7]

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

... That hurts to articulate.  Its sad to me that I have to set my expectations so low, that I just expect poor treatment from others, but that's the position I'm in as a minority from a belief perspective.  

The one thing it does that is beneficial to me is it helps me to understand, just a sliver, but at some level I think it helps me better appreciate all those marginalized groups who have been discriminated against across the history of time.  Grateful for that.  

I appreciate you hope_for.

The NT is reasonably clear that if we at times step out of formation, as occasionally commanded, that we will at times be out of step/sync with those who haven't heard or accepted that drum beat...where we are explicitly told, in advance that we needn't take offense when others take issue with temporary differences. 

[hagoth7]

14 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

There have been plenty of examples shared in the thread already by people who've struggled with these kinds of stories because of the loss and hurt they've personally experienced.  I'm trying to be sensitive to those people, although I haven't experienced those kinds of feelings myself.  The closest I can come is when I was a TBM and I believed the exclusivity claims of the church, and two of my siblings have left the church and I remember feeling a sense of loss over them leaving and praying and hoping for them to return.  

But I think my experience pales in comparison to many other experiences that are more heart wrenching.  

Hollands intentions with sharing a story like this are not in question, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for intentions.  I'm more concerned with the unintended hurt and consequences.  

I believe Elder Bednar's talk from years back about choosing not to be offended...is the best, most sensitive/responsive/empowering means to minster to and reinforce those who either didn't hear what he said, or could benefit from the occasibional reminder to help internalize it...and put it to use.

Was/is one of the most beneficial/armor-strengthening  *interpersonal* things I've  gained from conference. (OK, I'll admit that talk was 11 years, ago, but when it comes to my interpersonal blind spots, I'm a *very* slow learner.) 

Edited July 11, 2017 by hagoth7

[Amulek]

36 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Hollands intentions with sharing a story like this are not in question, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for intentions.  I'm more concerned with the unintended hurt and consequences.  

I’m not sure how much “unintended hurt” was present at the meeting with new mission presidents where he shared the story. My suspicion is that a faith promoting story about missionary work would have been rather well received in that setting.

 

[ksfisher]

33 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

There have been plenty of examples shared in the thread already by people who've struggled with these kinds of stories because of the loss and hurt they've personally experienced.  I'm trying to be sensitive to those people, although I haven't experienced those kinds of feelings myself.  The closest I can come is when I was a TBM and I believed the exclusivity claims of the church, and two of my siblings have left the church and I remember feeling a sense of loss over them leaving and praying and hoping for them to return.  

But I think my experience pales in comparison to many other experiences that are more heart wrenching.  

Hollands intentions with sharing a story like this are not in question, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for intentions.  I'm more concerned with the unintended hurt and consequences.  

What you're saying seems to be alone the lines of no bird in the forest should sing because other birds who don't sing as well may feel hurt.  I don't know if that's what you're intending, but it seems to be what I'm hearing. 

FWIW I have had a son leave the church.  His leaving caused (and still causes) me a great deal of pain.  I would never expect other people around me to stop telling stories of children or other loved ones who have returned.  That would seem very selfish of me to expect everyone else to not share things that cause them joy or bring them hope.  In fact, hearing those stories helps remind me that there is still plenty of time for him to make other choices. 

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, ksfisher said:

What you're saying seems to be alone the lines of no bird in the forest should sing because other birds who don't sing as well may feel hurt.  I don't know if that's what you're intending, but it seems to be what I'm hearing. 

FWIW I have had a son leave the church.  His leaving caused (and still causes) me a great deal of pain.  I would never expect other people around me to stop telling stories of children or other loved ones who have returned.  That would seem very selfish of me to expect everyone else to not share things that cause them joy or bring them hope.  In fact, hearing those stories helps remind me that there is still plenty of time for him to make other choices. 

I'm sure you don't do this, but being on discussion boards or listening to podcasts I've read/heard where people that have left the church feel so alienated by their TBM parents and family. This is such a shame to me. Their families haven't disowned them, but discontinue inviting them to baby blessings, missionary farewell/homecomings/baptisms etc. Or when they're at family parties the conversation is always about church stuff. 

[hope_for_things]

23 minutes ago, hagoth7 said:

I believe Elder Bednar's talk from years back about choosing not to be offended...is the best, most sensitive/responsive/empowering means to minster to and reinforce those who either didn't hear what he said, or could benefit from the occasibional reminder to help internalize it...and put it to use.

Was/is one of the most beneficial/armor-strengthening  *interpersonal* things I've  gained from conference. (OK, I'll admit that talk was 11 years, ago, but when it comes to my interpersonal blind spots, I'm a *very* slow learner.) 

Lots about that Bednar talk that I think is problematic and placing blame.  Please read Julie de Azevedo Hanks very well written article on this subject, its a gem and articulates the issue much better than I can.  

http://ldsmag.com/youre-choosing-to-be-offended/

Just a small quote from her blog

Quote

The misuse of the phrase “you’re choosing to be offended” can create distance rather than connection in our families, wards, and communities. It can prevent us from important information about ourselves when we use it to deflect responsibility. It can be used to minimize someone else’s pain. When we become aware that someone has taken offense to something we’ve said or done, rather than labeling them as “easily offended,” we would be wise to ask ourselves these questions:

What was my contribution to their experience of feeling offended?
Was I being insensitive or manipulative in a way that I might not recognize?
Is this relational pattern that would be helpful for me to explore?
What can I learn from this interaction that will help me to be more sensitive, compassionate and Christ-like?

Really good stuff from Julie!  

[hope_for_things]

7 minutes ago, Amulek said:

I’m not sure how much “unintended hurt” was present at the meeting with new mission presidents where he shared the story. My suspicion is that a faith promoting story about missionary work would have been rather well received in that setting.

 

I'm not sure is the key phrase in your statement.  You don't know the people in that audience.  I think its safe to say that there would be many people in that audience who've had tragedy in their personal family lives, had children who've led destructive paths in life or children who've left the faith(not tragic to me, but might be to many of those parents).  

This is my point, we should strive to be sensitive to as many people as possible.

[ksfisher]

1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

I'm sure you don't do this, but being on discussion boards or listening to podcasts I've read/heard where people that have left the church feel so alienated by their TBM parents and family. This is such a shame to me. Their families haven't disowned them, but discontinue inviting them to baby blessings, missionary farewell/homecomings/baptisms etc. Or when they're at family parties the conversation is always about church stuff. 

We continue to try and include him in everything we do (distance precludes a lot).  He's a great guy and we love him just as much as we always have. 

I wonder if the idea/stories of parents disowning children who left the church might be a little exaggerated.  Sort of like how an accident on a curve on a road make the news, but ignores the thousands of people who've negotiated that same curve safely. 

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, hagoth7 said:

I appreciate you hope_for.

The NT is reasonably clear that if we at times step out of formation, as occasionally commanded, that we will at times be out of step/sync with those who haven't heard or accepted that drum beat...where we are explicitly told, in advance that we needn't take offense when others take issue with temporary differences. 

Your last sentence goes perfectly with a podcast I listened to on a bike ride, I'm not always listening to help me sleep, lol. I think even Juliann would appreciate the podcast because it has Dan Wotherspoon on it. There is a panel of guests that discuss how the members of the church need to accept others' differences in the different faith paradigms. And how we can learn from each other. I like your scripture reference to stepping out of formation. It's like people that can't do that will become so sheltered in their thinking they won't know what hit them if say, one of their children are gay, or learn about something in church history they weren't aware of. I was one of these people. But I guess it takes something to wake some people up. 

Here is the podcast if you or anyone feels inclined to listen: 

http://www.mormonmatters.org/2017/07/06/398-399-staying-actively-engaged-in-mormonism/

ETA: The topic isn't about what I said above, it really focused on engaging in Mormonism while undergoing or having had a faith transition. But my thoughts above came out in conversation.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Tacenda

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Let’s pick on the first story from Deseret News. Elder Holland was addressing mission presidents. The whole idea is that “We are sent by God to invite His children home.... We do that through the Holy Ghost, the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, on the strength of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Welcome to the divine companionship.” How does that convey a lack of awareness and sensitivity to the downtrodden and marginalized?

 

Years ago, when I was a single adult, I attended a fireside for single adults at which a General Authority spoke. This man was single himself, a widower. During a Q and A, he addressed a question pertaining to single adults in the Church feeling bothered or offended with the constant emphasis in the Church on marriage and solid families. The GA said in effect that they should not take offense where none was intended and that the Church is not going to change or downplay essential and important principles pertaining to salvation and exaltation just to avoid upsetting people who, temporarily in most cases, find themselves without partners.

I have always appreciated his candor on that occasion and have tried to apply his counsel more broadly than just the context in which he spoke on that occasion.

 

Edited July 11, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

We continue to try and include him in everything we do (distance precludes a lot).  He's a great guy and we love him just as much as we always have. 

I wonder if the idea/stories of parents disowning children who left the church might be a little exaggerated.  Sort of like how an accident on a curve on a road make the news, but ignores the thousands of people who've negotiated that same curve safely. 

True!!

[hope_for_things]

10 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

What you're saying seems to be alone the lines of no bird in the forest should sing because other birds who don't sing as well may feel hurt.  I don't know if that's what you're intending, but it seems to be what I'm hearing. 

FWIW I have had a son leave the church.  His leaving caused (and still causes) me a great deal of pain.  I would never expect other people around me to stop telling stories of children or other loved ones who have returned.  That would seem very selfish of me to expect everyone else to not share things that cause them joy or bring them hope.  In fact, hearing those stories helps remind me that there is still plenty of time for him to make other choices. 

Its not at all what I'm saying, and I've made this point in multiple posts, I haven't called for Elder Holland or others to never share stories like this.  I'm asking for more awareness and sensitivity towards those who've been hurt.  There is a balance, awareness and sensitivity I'm looking for.  Some things probably shouldn't be shared, or the timing could be wrong, or a person could make additional statements of contextualizing to help, there are lots of things that could be done.  

Think of this analogy, when someone you know has a family member or close friend die, are you sensitive to the needs of that person that is mourning the death of their loved one?  

What would you say to them in their time of need?  

Would you tell them a faith promoting story about how someone you know who was suffering from the same illness was miraculously saved?  

What if the death was for someone at a young age, maybe you could tell them a story about how you know that God needed that person for a special mission on the other side of the veil?  

Or maybe if it was someone suffering from a long drawn out chronic disease, you could tell them about how you know that they will be rewarded for all that suffering in the next life?  

Now, I consider all these statements insensitive and potentially hurtful on some level, yet I'm aware of these kinds of things being told to people who've lost loved ones.  I think a more thoughtful approach is called for.  

[ksfisher]

2 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Its not at all what I'm saying, and I've made this point in multiple posts, I haven't called for Elder Holland or others to never share stories like this.  I'm asking for more awareness and sensitivity towards those who've been hurt.  There is a balance, awareness and sensitivity I'm looking for.  Some things probably shouldn't be shared, or the timing could be wrong, or a person could make additional statements of contextualizing to help, there are lots of things that could be done.  

Think of this analogy, when someone you know has a family member or close friend die, are you sensitive to the needs of that person that is mourning the death of their loved one?  

What would you say to them in their time of need?  

Would you tell them a faith promoting story about how someone you know who was suffering from the same illness was miraculously saved?  

What if the death was for someone at a young age, maybe you could tell them a story about how you know that God needed that person for a special mission on the other side of the veil?  

Or maybe if it was someone suffering from a long drawn out chronic disease, you could tell them about how you know that they will be rewarded for all that suffering in the next life?  

Now, I consider all these statements insensitive and potentially hurtful on some level, yet I'm aware of these kinds of things being told to people who've lost loved ones.  I think a more thoughtful approach is called for.  

In the analogy you're making here the example is of how to deal with one person in a private setting.  Of course the example you give is inappropriate and could very easily lead to hurt feelings.

Elder Hollands remarks, on the other hand, were made to a large audience.  Was Elder Holland supposed to survey the attendees before hand about what could cause them offense or pain or whatever and then make sure and eliminate anything on that list from his talk?  Do you think that Elder Holland has no experience in dealing with people and understanding them?  He's been a university president.  He's held positions in the church where he's spent hours comforting people who are grieving or in some manner of distress.  Give him some credit for knowing the audience he was speaking to, what was appropriate to share with them, and following the Spirit.

[hope_for_things]

1 minute ago, ksfisher said:

In the analogy you're making here the example is of how to deal with one person in a private setting.  Of course the example you give is inappropriate and could very easily lead to hurt feelings.

Elder Hollands remarks, on the other hand, were made to a large audience.  Was Elder Holland supposed to survey the attendees before hand about what could cause them offense or pain or whatever and then make sure and eliminate anything on that list from his talk?  Do you think that Elder Holland has no experience in dealing with people and understanding them?  He's been a university president.  He's held positions in the church where he's spent hours comforting people who are grieving or in some manner of distress.  Give him some credit for knowing the audience he was speaking to, what was appropriate to share with them, and following the Spirit.

Since Elder Holland can't possibly know all the experiences of individuals, it seems to me the most responsible approach would be to think about the many different ways that his message could be interpreted by various different audience members, and then to craft a message that would do the most good and least harm.  I'm no expert in this, but I know that PR firms specialize in this kind of strategic messaging.  

[hagoth7]

32 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

...guests that discuss how the members of the church need to accept others' differences in the different faith paradigms. And how we can learn from each other. I like your scripture reference to stepping out of formation. It's like people that can't do that will become so sheltered in their thinking they won't know what hit them...

NT is clear about one member having no cause to say to another..."I have no need of you",, etc. simply because of occasional differences in form, function, or geography...(ear, hand, foot, etc.). Someone stepping out of formation may have been sent out to scout ahead or to do likewise on either side, or to take up the rearguard, or to forage for the rest of the troops. And we are occasionaly *supposed* to leave 99 formation, in order to seek out the 1. (Or, one which breaks ranks may be simply be hurting, and we might be well served to follow suit to seek them out and invite them back. (I really love Minerva Teichert's painting of Christ holding one lamb...which is black, unlike the others.) If You Don't Walk Like Some People Do...So if we're judging by appearances of those who temporarily peel off, we're kinda missing the point. With a capstone of Elder Holland's recent plea: Songs Sung and Unsung.

32 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Here is the podcast if you or anyone feels inclined to listen: http://www.mormonstories.org/a-thoughtful-faith-panel/ ETA: The topic isn't about what I said above, it really focused on engaging in Mormonism while undergoing or having had a faith transition. But my thoughts above came out in conversation.

Thank you for sharing. The time will likely soon come when I need to invest time hearing out such podcasts. 

Edited July 11, 2017 by hagoth7

[hagoth7]

49 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Lots about that Bednar talk that I think is problematic and placing blame.

I've unintentionally wielded it at that way at times, as a means to shift blame instead of simply apologize and try to make things right. 

His message is instead intended to help some.

Not intended to be foisted upon others.

My apologies if, for you, I've instead done the latter.  

[Danzo]

50 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I'm not sure is the key phrase in your statement.  You don't know the people in that audience.  I think its safe to say that there would be many people in that audience who've had tragedy in their personal family lives, had children who've led destructive paths in life or children who've left the faith(not tragic to me, but might be to many of those parents).  

This is my point, we should strive to be sensitive to as many people as possible.

If the Mission presidents who heard the story were offended, we should let them speak for themselves.

I think it can be rather annoying when other people start feeling offended for me (especially when I am not actually offended)

[Danzo]

21 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I'm no expert in this, but I know that PR firms specialize in this kind of strategic messaging.  

And it is often quite annoying.

PR firms are often good at stripping all meaning from their messages.

[ksfisher]

30 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Since Elder Holland can't possibly know all the experiences of individuals, it seems to me the most responsible approach would be to think about the many different ways that his message could be interpreted by various different audience members, and then to craft a message that would do the most good and least harm.  I'm no expert in this, but I know that PR firms specialize in this kind of strategic messaging.  

So if I mention my wife someone without a spouse may feel hurt.

If I mention my job someone who is struggling to find employment may feel hurt.

If I mention my testimony of the Book of Mormon someone who has prayed for, but not yet received a testimony may feel hurt.

If I mention my children a couple without children may feel hurt.

Etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

57 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Since Elder Holland can't possibly know all the experiences of individuals, it seems to me the most responsible approach would be to think about the many different ways that his message could be interpreted by various different audience members, and then to craft a message that would do the most good and least harm.  I'm no expert in this, but I know that PR firms specialize in this kind of strategic messaging.  

Who says he didn't do that in this instance?

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

And it is often quite annoying.

PR firms are often good at stripping all meaning from their messages.

 

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

So if I mention my wife someone without a spouse may feel hurt.

If I mention my job someone who is struggling to find employment may feel hurt.

If I mention my testimony of the Book of Mormon someone who has prayed for, but not yet received a testimony may feel hurt.

If I mention my children a couple without children may feel hurt.

Etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.

 

May we be spared from the sort of sterilized messaging that hft is advocating.

 

Edited July 11, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[CV75]

3 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

There have been plenty of examples shared in the thread already by people who've struggled with these kinds of stories because of the loss and hurt they've personally experienced.  I'm trying to be sensitive to those people, although I haven't experienced those kinds of feelings myself.  The closest I can come is when I was a TBM and I believed the exclusivity claims of the church, and two of my siblings have left the church and I remember feeling a sense of loss over them leaving and praying and hoping for them to return.  

But I think my experience pales in comparison to many other experiences that are more heart wrenching.  

Hollands intentions with sharing a story like this are not in question, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for intentions.  I'm more concerned with the unintended hurt and consequences.  

What is the unintended hurt and consequences of hearing that “We are sent by God to invite His children home.... We do that through the Holy Ghost, the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, on the strength of the Atonement of Jesus Christ," and, "Welcome to the divine companionship”? What is the struggle that makes this message offensive (and who are you saying are offended, TBMs or BTMs, or both)?

Are you suggesting that some miss this message and so struggle in their faith (or their feelings of self-worth, belonging, etc.) because it reminds them that the lost soul they love hasn't come back to enjoy membership according to the struggling person's brand of commitment (whether at a TBM or BTM level), and so on one hand, not to use stories with messages, and on the other, to tell more stories of lost souls not coming back or coming back on the potentially struggling person's terms (and not as Elder Holland described)?