Despair always caused by iniquity?

[Duncan]

in Moroni it says that if we have no hope then we are in despair and despair comes because of iniquity, Moroni 10:22. I can think of a million reasons that despair can come but not always because of iniquity, you get evicted because of a mistake (I know a couple that that happened to), you give up hope on your car, garden, roof, art project, essay, finding a lost grey playmobil sword on a parking lot ,haircut, etc. Is despair always caused by iniquity? where is the iniquity if you try to find your DVD of Napolean Dynamite but you simply cannot find it

[Calm]

I think a formal, less casual use of "despair" is meant in the verses, despair being defined as the complete absence of hope...which is much more than momentary frustration of hope or desire, even of the intense variety.

Having no hope implies to me having hope in nothing, not just not having hope in something but having hope in others.  At that point, hope becomes more an attribute or global attitude than a situational characteristic.

Being unable to feel any Hope (not in the generic sense we mean when we say"I hope there is something interesting on TV) at all about anything is a sign of deep, inner difficulties and is imo possible outside of iniquity as I believe severe clinical depression and other mental disorders may result in despair without sin being a trigger of it, but I would say outside of that true despair is a result of iniquity (if one is a believer) due to not only being aware of sin, but not desiring to repent.

Otherwise we would always have at least hope in the Atonement or the next life (if a believer in the Atonement being opened to all, gets complicated for an atheist or a Calvinist who sees themselves as unsaved if I understand the theology correctly).

Edited May 5, 2017 by Calm

[clarkgoble]

I don't think he is saying despair only comes by way of inequity but that iniquity frequently brings despair. He's talking about his people and why they didn't have hope. His people had given up hope and he saw that partially due to their iniquity. So I think he's primarily speaking at a group not individual level. 

I take him to be trying to apply that lesson to some future state where we as a people will be in despair and feel like we can't have faith. "...for the time speedily cometh that ye shall know that I lie not." It's very easy to feel like God has abandoned us when his arm is still outstretched to us.

I most definitely don't take him to be saying that if you have any despair it's because of your iniquity. It might be due to the iniquity of others though. Think of a child raised in extreme abuse for instance.

Edited May 5, 2017 by clarkgoble

[pogi]

3 minutes ago, Duncan said:

in Moroni it says that if we have no hope then we are in despair and despair comes because of iniquity, Moroni 10:22. I can think of a million reasons that despair can come but not always because of iniquity, you get evicted because of a mistake (I know a couple that that happened to), you give up hope on your car, garden, roof, art project, essay, finding a lost grey playmobil sword on a parking lot ,haircut, etc. Is despair always caused by iniquity? where is the iniquity if you try to find your DVD of Napolean Dynamite but you simply cannot find it

Also depression can cause despair which does not come because of iniquity.

Here is the exact scripture quote:

Quote

And if ye have no hope ye must needs be in despair; and despair cometh because of iniquity.

The previous verse says that one cannot be saved without hope.  So, I think what this verse is saying is that losing hope in salvation causes despair - such despair is caused by iniquity. 

 

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, pogi said:

such despair is caused by iniquity. 

 

However, I think most of us can think of times such despair or at least the feeling of it is not caused by iniquity, but by unrealistic, irrational thought or possibly an atheistic viewpoint coupled with a horrendous life situation (an atheist who is in extreme pain due to illness, for example, might have true despair that there is no salvation through no sin).

Or he could be talking about a type of despair where there actually is no hope because the person has sinned and rejected the Atonement.  That despair would be the despair of Satan and his followers.  They have no hope because they reject the Hope because they chose consciously the path of iniquity, so of course they feel despair.

Or it could be that nuances got lost because we are more obsessive about implications based on sentence construction more than Joseph was.

[Duncan]

Just now, pogi said:

Also depression can cause despair which does not come because of iniquity.

Here is the exact scripture quote:

The previous verse says that one cannot be saved without hope.  So, I think what this verse is saying is that losing hope in salvation causes despair - such despair is caused by iniquity. 

 

yeah, depression is the mental monkeywrench, but losing hope in salvation, what would you say to people who think they'e sinned too many times, done too many things and just don't think they are celestial material and just lose out-depression can aid in those thoughts

[bluebell]

I think reading verse 21 helps with the interpretation of verse 22.

In verse 21 Moroni teaches that if you don't have hope you can't be saved.  That tells us what kind of hope he is referring to.  He's not talking about a loss of hope that comes with depression or sickness or sadness.  He's talking about a loss of hope in Jesus, a loss of hope in the Atonement.

 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

However, I think most of us can think of times such despair or at least the feeling of it is not caused by iniquity, but by unrealistic, irrational thought or possibly an atheistic viewpoint coupled with a horrendous life situation (an atheist who is in extreme pain due to illness, for example, might have true despair that there is no salvation through no sin).

Or he could be talking about a type of despair where there actually is no hope because the person has sinned and rejected the Atonement.  That despair would be the despair of Satan and his followers.  They have no hope because they reject the Hope because they chose consciously the path of iniquity, so of course they feel despair.

Or it could be that nuances got lost because we are more obsessive about implications based on sentence construction more than Joseph was.

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

yeah, depression is the mental monkeywrench, but losing hope in salvation, what would you say to people who think they'e sinned too many times, done too many things and just don't think they are celestial material and just lose out-depression can aid in those thoughts

I think the proper way to interpret it is that none of us are without sin, and thus have reason to despair.  But even beyond that, all pain, all sorrow, all emotional anguish, all spiritual turmoil, all darkness, sickness, etc. is brought upon all of us because of the fall.  That is the original source of despair - sin.

We know that prior to eating the fruit Adam and Eve were naked in the Garden and were not ashamed.  “And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed” (Genesis 2:25), (Moses 3:25), and (Abraham 5:19).  Only after eating the fruit did they discover their nakedness.  Free of transgression in the garden, the nakedness of Adam and Eve represented complete and utter innocence.

I think of how Adam must have felt in the garden after partaking of the fruit.  Upon hearing the voice of the Lord, Lucifer warned both Adam and Eve,  “Look at yourselves, you are naked! Take some fig leaves, cover yourselves and hide your unworthiness from God!’  For the first time, the human race discovered shame, and it was introduced not by man, neither by God, but by the author of lies and deceit himself, that great serpent - even Lucifer.  I can imagine the fear that must have come over them as they heeded the words of that conniving serpent, the author of shame and fear himself, as he pointed out their nakedness before God.  I can imagine Lucifer whispering, “You have done it now, you have destroyed the plan of God, you have ruined everything, it’s all your fault, you are a big mistake, you are better off hiding from Him now, He will never accept you like this, can’t you see that you are naked, quick hide!” 

Only after being spotted with transgression did they discover their nakedness, but they did not see innocence in their nakedness, they saw that they were spotted with guilt.  How quickly Lucifer can transform healthy guilt into toxic shame!  The difference being that sorrowful guilt influences us to seek reconciliation before the Lord, while toxic shame influences us to hide from the Lord. 

And so they ran and hid from the voice of the Lord.  They had judged themselves unworthy.  They judged not that they had done badly, but that they themselves were bad, as evidenced by them attempting to cover their very selves. They viewed themselves as broken in some way; they feared the judgment of God.  They did not yet understand that this life was a probationary state, that we can make mistakes without being a mistake; that through the blood and atonement of Christ we can cover our mistakes and make ourselves presentable before the Lord.  This had not yet been taught to them, so they must have been in a state of complete despair and desperate fear, with no hope for life or salvation.  They were completely unprepared for the fruit. 

Only through a hope in Christ is there a true freedom and redemption from the despair that sin has brought upon the world. 

Here is how King Benjamin describes the despair that I think Moroni is talking about: “And they being evil they are consigned to an awful view of their own guilt and abominations, which doth cause them to shrink from the presence of the Lord into a state of misery and endless torment, from whence they can no more return; therefore they have drunk damnation to their own souls.  Therefore, they have drunk out of the cup of the wrath of God, which justice could no more deny unto them than it could deny that Adam should fall because of his partaking of the forbidden fruit; therefore, mercy could have claim on them no more forever.  And their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable, and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever…” (Mosiah 3:25-27)

The only way out of that kind of despair is a hope in Christ. 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Duncan said:

in Moroni it says that if we have no hope then we are in despair and despair comes because of iniquity, Moroni 10:22. I can think of a million reasons that despair can come but not always because of iniquity, you get evicted because of a mistake (I know a couple that that happened to), you give up hope on your car, garden, roof, art project, essay, finding a lost grey playmobil sword on a parking lot ,haircut, etc. Is despair always caused by iniquity? where is the iniquity if you try to find your DVD of Napolean Dynamite but you simply cannot find it

If a lost DVD causes despair we are either dealing with a romantic melancholy hyperbole-prone drama queen or that person needs mental and/or emotional help.

[Duncan]

11 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

If a lost DVD causes despair we are either dealing with a romantic melancholy hyperbole-prone drama queen or that person needs mental and/or emotional help.

he's 14

[strappinglad]

Just now, Duncan said:

he's 14

Nuf said !

[Duncan]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I think reading verse 21 helps with the interpretation of verse 22.

In verse 21 Moroni teaches that if you don't have hope you can't be saved.  That tells us what kind of hope he is referring to.  He's not talking about a loss of hope that comes with depression or sickness or sadness.  He's talking about a loss of hope in Jesus, a loss of hope in the Atonement.

 

what would you say is the connection to iniquity? would you say though that depression can lead people to think that they are beyond saving? What would be a real life example of someone who has that mentality?

[Stargazer]

4 hours ago, Duncan said:

in Moroni it says that if we have no hope then we are in despair and despair comes because of iniquity, Moroni 10:22. I can think of a million reasons that despair can come but not always because of iniquity, you get evicted because of a mistake (I know a couple that that happened to), you give up hope on your car, garden, roof, art project, essay, finding a lost grey playmobil sword on a parking lot ,haircut, etc. Is despair always caused by iniquity? where is the iniquity if you try to find your DVD of Napolean Dynamite but you simply cannot find it

I think that we use the word despair when we're not really in despair.  Just like when I say that I hate something.  Like: "I hate asparagus" or "I hate my hair color" or "Don't you just hate it when people mis-use the word 'hate'?"

When we REALLY are in despair, we have (as Calm says) given up hope, and it is never justified to give up hope.  Even if one is in the middle of some really bad outcomes, such as drowning and no rescue is available, we should even then not be despairing, because even if we die we still have hope in Christ's atonement and resurrection.  I've never been in a state of despair.  Even when my late wife was days away from death, she did not despair.  I have hope in her resurrection, and so did she.  It would be iniquitous to lose hope in Christ.

That's my take on it, anyway.

Edited May 6, 2017 by Stargazer

[strappinglad]

There may be a fine line between the two but to be desperate and to be depressed is not necessarily the same. If one is drowning and fighting for air one would be considered desperate but not depressed.

[3DOP]

6 hours ago, Duncan said:

in Moroni it says that if we have no hope then we are in despair and despair comes because of iniquity, Moroni 10:22. I can think of a million reasons that despair can come but not always because of iniquity, you get evicted because of a mistake (I know a couple that that happened to), you give up hope on your car, garden, roof, art project, essay, finding a lost grey playmobil sword on a parking lot ,haircut, etc. Is despair always caused by iniquity? where is the iniquity if you try to find your DVD of Napolean Dynamite but you simply cannot find it

Catholics also speak against despair. But the context is about eternity. We are never supposed to believe that we are so sinful that we are beyond God's forgiveness. But it is okay to despair about whether the Bengals are going to win the Super Bowl, or whether you will ever see the sun in the Pacific Northwest between October and July.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Duncan said:

he's 14

Everyone between the onset of puberty and about age 17 is clinically insane until they adjust to that hormone cocktail we all get.

[CV75]

22 hours ago, Duncan said:

in Moroni it says that if we have no hope then we are in despair and despair comes because of iniquity, Moroni 10:22. I can think of a million reasons that despair can come but not always because of iniquity, you get evicted because of a mistake (I know a couple that that happened to), you give up hope on your car, garden, roof, art project, essay, finding a lost grey playmobil sword on a parking lot ,haircut, etc. Is despair always caused by iniquity? where is the iniquity if you try to find your DVD of Napolean Dynamite but you simply cannot find it

No, but iniquity always leads to despair (eventually), no matter what else might (or might not) also be involved. If iniquity is is not involved, but say a medical condition instead, the Lord will eventually remove that difficulty. But He will not remove the consequences of an unwilling, iniquitous heart.

[Bernard Gui]

19 hours ago, Duncan said:

what would you say is the connection to iniquity? would you say though that depression can lead people to think that they are beyond saving? What would be a real life example of someone who has that mentality?

Yes it can. I have experienced that. It's truly the most awful thing. Love, prayer, patience, medical assistance, fresh air, finding beauty again, talking about it are some things that bring healing.

[Bernard Gui]

On 5/5/2017 at 3:53 PM, Duncan said:

in Moroni it says that if we have no hope then we are in despair and despair comes because of iniquity, Moroni 10:22. I can think of a million reasons that despair can come but not always because of iniquity, you get evicted because of a mistake (I know a couple that that happened to), you give up hope on your car, garden, roof, art project, essay, finding a lost grey playmobil sword on a parking lot ,haircut, etc. Is despair always caused by iniquity? where is the iniquity if you try to find your DVD of Napolean Dynamite but you simply cannot find it

I see this in the context of the moral and physical destruction of his people that he documented for his son Mormon in chapter 9. These people are beyond help, beyond redemption, beyond hope. This is what he means by the despair of iniquity.

Quote

4 Behold, I am laboring with them continually; and when I speak the word of God with sharpness they tremble and anger against me; and when I use no sharpness they harden their hearts against it; wherefore, I fear lest the Spirit of the Lord hath ceased striving with them.

5 For so exceedingly do they anger that it seemeth me that they have no fear of death; and they have lost their love, one towards another; and they thirst after blood and revenge continually.

11 O my beloved son, how can a people like this, that are without civilization—

12 (And only a few years have passed away, and they were a civil and a delightsome people)

13 But O my son, how can a people like this, whose delight is in so much abomination—

14 How can we expect that God will stay his hand in judgment against us?

18 O the depravity of my people! They are without order and without mercy. Behold, I am but a man, and I have but the strength of a man, and I cannot any longer enforce my commands.

19 And they have become strong in their perversion; and they are alike brutal, sparing none, neither old nor young; and they delight in everything save that which is good; and the suffering of our women and our children upon all the face of this land doth exceed everything; yea, tongue cannot tell, neither can it be written.

20 And now, my son, I dwell no longer upon this horrible scene. Behold, thou knowest the wickedness of this people; thou knowest that they are without principle, and past feeling; and their wickedness doth exceed that of the Lamanites.

 

Edited May 7, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Duncan]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

No, but iniquity always leads to despair (eventually), no matter what else might (or might not) also be involved. If iniquity is is not involved, but say a medical condition instead, the Lord will eventually remove that difficulty. But He will not remove the consequences of an unwilling, iniquitous heart.

it's like unrepented iniquity leads to despair but despair isn't always caused by iniquity? A=b but B doesn't always equal A?

[thesometimesaint]

On 5/5/2017 at 4:22 PM, Duncan said:

yeah, depression is the mental monkeywrench, but losing hope in salvation, what would you say to people who think they'e sinned too many times, done too many things and just don't think they are celestial material and just lose out-depression can aid in those thoughts

While we don't believe in deathbed repentance; If they still alive there is always repentance.

[The Nehor]

14 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

While we don't believe in deathbed repentance; If they still alive there is always repentance.

I believe deathbed repentance can work if sincere. It does not save though unless when you get to the other side you are willing to do your duty (not just think you will). If not, the conversion was false.

[thesometimesaint]

8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I believe deathbed repentance can work if sincere. It does not save though unless when you get to the other side you are willing to do your duty (not just think you will). If not, the conversion was false.

SEE https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/chapter-14-repentance?lang=eng

[The Nehor]

15 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

SEE https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/chapter-14-repentance?lang=eng

Does not really contradict what I said. Yes, planning deathbed repentance is risky as you might die unexpectedly. God would also prefer us to repent when we are not about to die. It does not say that it will not work. I expect in most cases it does not work. I expect in some cases it does.

We do not condemn someone for returning or finding the faith when led to do so by some kind of emotional or spiritual crisis. Impending death is such a crisis. The question is whether the repentance is sincere and, when you get to the other side and they hand you a Home Teaching list, whether you do your duty.

[thesometimesaint]

38 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Does not really contradict what I said. Yes, planning deathbed repentance is risky as you might die unexpectedly. God would also prefer us to repent when we are not about to die. It does not say that it will not work. I expect in most cases it does not work. I expect in some cases it does.

We do not condemn someone for returning or finding the faith when led to do so by some kind of emotional or spiritual crisis. Impending death is such a crisis. The question is whether the repentance is sincere and, when you get to the other side and they hand you a Home Teaching list, whether you do your duty.

Part of the repentance process is making full restitution, as far as possible. The deathbed makes that very hard. God can forgive whom he wants, but to wait till that last breath probably isn't the best course of action. What we've became rises with us to be judged by God.