The Rock rolling forth

[stemelbow]

Since the Church's growth has plateau'd (meaning the rate of growth of the Church is slower than the rate of growth of the world.  At our current direction we'll continue to be less and less of a presence/force/number in the world), I'm curious what people think of our oft repeated quotation of the prophecy in Daniel and/or more accurately in D&C 65:

Quote

The keys of the kingdom of God are committed unto man on the earth, and from thence shall the gospel roll forth unto the ends of the earth, as the stone which is cut out of the mountain without hands shall roll forth, until it has filled the whole earth.

I think we read this to suggest once we reach a land, we call that fulfilling of the prophecy. Thus, when lds servicemen went to Iraq to serve some tours, they helped fulfill the prophecy.  Is that filling the whole earth with a rock that is rolling forth? 

Often, I've noticed, prophecies of the past used to describe what is going on today have a pretty uneven fit.  Luckily in many cases the prophecies are vague enough for us to get an edge in, swing around our back end and wedge us in, even if it comes off as a pretty awkward look. 

Thoughts?

[thesometimesaint]

No where does that prophecy claim that everyone in this life will join the Church.

[stemelbow]

4 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

No where does that prophecy claim that everyone in this life will join the Church.

Agreed. But who has the impression that the Church's growth and influence would plateau?  I'd agree filling the whole earth would not necessarily suggest all people will join the Church, but it does seem like the prophecy suggests a filling of the earth would require more than .1% of the earth to be members, that is, of course, if the prophecy is meant to refer to the Church as we often use it to mean. 

Maybe we need to reconsider the prophecy.  Maybe there is no good actual reason to apply it to the Church.  Perhaps without realizing it we are misapplying it.  Maybe the gospel is filling the earth, as brotherly love spreads?  Or something like that. 

[JLHPROF]

The "Rock" is the Kingdom of God, not the Church.

The Kingdom of God will grow, especially when Christ himself returns to rule and reign and every knee will bow and every tongue confess that his is the Christ (Lord).
The Church was always prophesied to plateau, as we are told in many prophecies of the mass falling away in the final time before the return of Christ.

[stemelbow]

Just now, JLHPROF said:

The "Rock" is the Kingdom of God, not the Church.

The Kingdom of God will grow, especially when Christ himself returns to rule and reign and every knee will bow and every tongue confess that his is the Christ (Lord).
The Church was always prophesied to plateau, as we are told in many prophecies of the mass falling away in the final time before the return of Christ.

Cool.  I'd agree that the Rock is the Kingdom.  But often we equate the kingdom of God as the Church.

Can you help me locate any prophesies of plateauing? 

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

Since the Church's growth has plateau'd (meaning the rate of growth of the Church is slower than the rate of growth of the world.  At our current direction we'll continue to be less and less of a presence/force/number in the world), I'm curious what people think of our oft repeated quotation of the prophecy in Daniel and/or more accurately in D&C 65:

I think we read this to suggest once we reach a land, we call that fulfilling of the prophecy. Thus, when lds servicemen went to Iraq to serve some tours, they helped fulfill the prophecy.  Is that filling the whole earth with a rock that is rolling forth? 

Often, I've noticed, prophecies of the past used to describe what is going on today have a pretty uneven fit.  Luckily in many cases the prophecies are vague enough for us to get an edge in, swing around our back end and wedge us in, even if it comes off as a pretty awkward look. 

Thoughts?

Anyone who equates a military visit to a country as fulfillment of Daniel's stone cut out without hands which shall roll forth to fill the Earth just doesn't know anything about Scripture.  Such grasping is silly and meaningless, and I don't know any serious person who does that.  One might more profitably ask about the spread of various religions and ideologies in history.  How have they taken place?  Many have spread in herky jerky fashion, become entrenched in certain areas, and abandoned in others.  I think of Buddhism and Marxism.  There is never a linear advance.  Indeed, in some cases, God specifically tells his chosen people that they are few and that he wants it that way.

In some cases, as with the Mormons, a belief system can become notorious and subject to ridicule -- as with the "Book of Mormon" musical.  One has only to observe the persecutions of the 19th century Mormons, or of the 20th century Jews.

A much wiser approach might be to ask how a belief-system can be spread worldwide in the future using digital media.  Old fashioned tracting just won't cut it.  Moreover, the world is very unstable, failing to face significant problems (global warming, war, refugees, etc.), which will result in catastrophic reduction in population.  Linear thinking simply does not apply.

[stemelbow]

6 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Anyone who equates a military visit to a country as fulfillment of Daniel's stone cut out without hands which shall roll forth to fill the Earth just doesn't know anything about Scripture.  Such grasping is silly and meaningless, and I don't know any serious person who does that.  One might more profitably ask about the spread of various religions and ideologies in history.  How have they taken place?  Many have spread in herky jerky fashion, become entrenched in certain areas, and abandoned in others.  I think of Buddhism and Marxism.  There is never a linear advance.  Indeed, in some cases, God specifically tells his chosen people that they are few and that he wants it that way.

I agree with all that you have said.  I'm curious to see, as our future unfolds, whether we fill the earth in any sense. 

6 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

In some cases, as with the Mormons, a belief system can become notorious and subject to ridicule -- as with the "Book of Mormon" musical.  One has only to observe the persecutions of the 19th century Mormons, or of the 20th century Jews.

Not sure I get what you're saying here.  but ok. 

6 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

A much wiser approach might be to ask how a belief-system can be spread worldwide in the future using digital media.  Old fashioned tracting just won't cut it.  Moreover, the world is very unstable, failing to face significant problems (global warming, war, refugees, etc.), which will result in catastrophic reduction in population.  Linear thinking simply does not apply.

I very much agree with what you've said.  Linear thinking does not apply.  Our traditional methods of spreading the gospel is not working.  We need to adapt.  I think the Church will learn in time, but as of now, we're falling behind. 

[Duncan]

I got this thought from the late great Truman Madsen, in that Elder Erastus Snow was corrected by the Prophet Joseph Smith when Elder Snow said that the Church would crush all other kingdoms and Joseph Smith said that it wouldn't be by sword or gun that the kingdom grows but it would be like a spinning wheel, centrifugal in influence and reaching farther and farther throughout the world

[Robert F. Smith]

13 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Cool.  I'd agree that the Rock is the Kingdom.  But often we equate the kingdom of God as the Church.

Can you help me locate any prophesies of plateauing? 

Actually, according to self-identification, the LDS Church is the official Kingdom of God on Earth.  Of course, that is the self-identification of Roman Catholicism as well.

As to plateauing, perhaps 2 Thess 2:1-3 ,

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Normative christianity interprets that to refer to the End Time, in light of which there is no place for jingoistic triumphalism.

[california boy]

There are plenty of prophesies for everyone to claim in the Scriptures.  Prophesies that even contradict each other.  So when one prophesy fails, another is picked up as proof of divine guidance.  What church could not claim the prophesy of Daniel as their own?  What church could not claim a falling away?  Is there even one prophesy that could be specifically labeled by everyone as a fulfillment of prophesy that only applies the Mormons?  It isn't even limited to christian churches.  How many prophesies including the one in Daniel could not be applied to the Muslin religion?  Reading tea leaves is always easier when you have a motivation for wanting to claim the foretold outcome.

Can anyone name a single prophesy that the only interpretation would be directed at the church?

[california boy]

6 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Actually, according to self-identification, the LDS Church is the official Kingdom of God on Earth.  Of course, that is the self-identification of Roman Catholicism as well.

As to plateauing, perhaps 2 Thess 2:1-3 ,

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Normative christianity interprets that to refer to the End Time, in light of which there is no place for jingoistic triumphalism.

And couldn't that falling away refer to the very people Paul is addressing?  The apostasy of the first church?  Or couldn't it be applied to the Catholic church when Protestant movement?  Or it could be applied to christianity in general as more millennials leave all organized religion.  Using prophesy to prop up the belief in any church is a weak argument that has been used for centuries to justify the decisions and actions of man.  It is like the eclipse of the moon or a raven flying over as proof of favor with God.  

[thesometimesaint]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

Agreed. But who has the impression that the Church's growth and influence would plateau?  I'd agree filling the whole earth would not necessarily suggest all people will join the Church, but it does seem like the prophecy suggests a filling of the earth would require more than .1% of the earth to be members, that is, of course, if the prophecy is meant to refer to the Church as we often use it to mean. 

Maybe we need to reconsider the prophecy.  Maybe there is no good actual reason to apply it to the Church.  Perhaps without realizing it we are misapplying it.  Maybe the gospel is filling the earth, as brotherly love spreads?  Or something like that. 

The Gospel is not the Church. The Church is the vehicle by which the Gospel is spread. I find nowhere in our Scriptures that precludes a short lived relative plateau in increasing membership.

Maybe. But we are a very young church. Give us another 2000 years like the Catholics have had. Then maybe we can make that reconsideration.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Since the Church's growth has plateau'd (meaning the rate of growth of the Church is slower than the rate of growth of the world.  At our current direction we'll continue to be less and less of a presence/force/number in the world), I'm curious what people think of our oft repeated quotation of the prophecy in Daniel and/or more accurately in D&C 65:

I think we read this to suggest once we reach a land, we call that fulfilling of the prophecy. Thus, when lds servicemen went to Iraq to serve some tours, they helped fulfill the prophecy.  Is that filling the whole earth with a rock that is rolling forth? 

Often, I've noticed, prophecies of the past used to describe what is going on today have a pretty uneven fit.  Luckily in many cases the prophecies are vague enough for us to get an edge in, swing around our back end and wedge us in, even if it comes off as a pretty awkward look. 

Thoughts?

I think the "whole earth" (Daniel 2:35) and "ends of the earth" (D&C 65:2) includes the spirit world where the stone is also rolling forth, and which is impacted by what is going on in the physical earth we live in. The Church on the post-mortal side of the veil is also growing. I think the fulfillment of the prophecy would be in the Millennium and what transpires thereafter that further contributes to the realization of the Church of the Firstborn for those born into this world.

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said:

The Gospel is not the Church. The Church is the vehicle by which the Gospel is spread. I find nowhere in our Scriptures that precludes a short lived relative plateau in increasing membership.

Maybe. But we are a very young church. Give us another 2000 years like the Catholics have had. Then maybe we can make that reconsideration.

I'd be happy to give us another 2000 years.

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I think the "whole earth" (Daniel 2:35) and "ends of the earth" (D&C 65:2) includes the spirit world where the stone is also rolling forth, and which is impacted by what is going on in the physical earth we live in. The Church on the post-mortal side of the veil is also growing. I think the fulfillment of the prophecy would be in the Millennium and what transpires thereafter that further contributes to the realization of the Church of the Firstborn for those born into this world.

interesting interps.  Thanks.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

There are plenty of prophesies for everyone to claim in the Scriptures.  Prophesies that even contradict each other.  So when one prophesy fails, another is picked up as proof of divine guidance.  What church could not claim the prophesy of Daniel as their own?  What church could not claim a falling away?  Is there even one prophesy that could be specifically labeled by everyone as a fulfillment of prophesy that only applies the Mormons?  It isn't even limited to christian churches.  How many prophesies including the one in Daniel could not be applied to the Muslin religion?  Reading tea leaves is always easier when you have a motivation for wanting to claim the foretold outcome.

Can anyone name a single prophesy that the only interpretation would be directed at the church?

 

1 hour ago, california boy said:

And couldn't that falling away refer to the very people Paul is addressing?  The apostasy of the first church?  Or couldn't it be applied to the Catholic church when Protestant movement?  Or it could be applied to christianity in general as more millennials leave all organized religion.  Using prophesy to prop up the belief in any church is a weak argument that has been used for centuries to justify the decisions and actions of man.  It is like the eclipse of the moon or a raven flying over as proof of favor with God.  

All that is certainly true, and I always seem to have great difficulty getting people on this board to see it.  So thanks for stating the real dilemma we all face.

However, bear in mind that stemelbow was asking for a citation, and I presented one which could conceivably be used for that purpose.  You could probably come up with other citations.  The real issue is How do we correctly interpret Scripture?  How do we know that any Scripture is even valid?  All any of us have is our faith and our own personal testimony -- hopefully based on the witness of the Holy Spirit.  That is the best we can do, despite whatever degree of sophistication we might bring to understanding Scripture.

[Ahab]

4 hours ago, stemelbow said:

The keys of the kingdom of God are committed unto man on the earth, and from thence shall the gospel roll forth unto the ends of the earth, as the stone which is cut out of the mountain without hands shall roll forth, until it has filled the whole earth

I see a lot of people misinterpret this statement, thinking it is the church or the kingdom of God that will eventually fill the whole earth, but that is not what the statement is saying.

The "from thence" in the statement is saying that from the kingdom of God shall the gospel roll forth, so the stone is representatime of the gospel that will roll forth until it (the gospel) has filled the whole earth.

So with that in mind, how would it be possible and in what way could it ever be said that the gospel will someday fill the whole earth?

Should the gospel be regarded as a particular message? If so, how could a message ever fill the whole earth?

Think on that a bit now with a better understanding of what the statement is saying.

 

[rongo]

3 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Agreed. But who has the impression that the Church's growth and influence would plateau? 

I actually see the scriptures (particularly the Book of Mormon) predicting a decline in the Church, and a shift from the Gentiles (the current driving element of northern European descent) to the Lamanites. Plus, a lot of the eschatological teachings from the past paint a Church besieged by society in a crumbling world --- hardly the continuation of Rodney Stark-esque projections. 

I see the stone filling the whole earth in terms of scope and presence, not numerical superiority or acceptance. I don't know many people who actually expected or expect the Church to gain numerical superiority or wide acceptance. I think we've been spoiled by the last couple of decades of prosperity and calm. 

[cinepro]

4 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Since the Church's growth has plateau'd (meaning the rate of growth of the Church is slower than the rate of growth of the world.  At our current direction we'll continue to be less and less of a presence/force/number in the world), I'm curious what people think of our oft repeated quotation of the prophecy in Daniel and/or more accurately in D&C 65:

I think we read this to suggest once we reach a land, we call that fulfilling of the prophecy. Thus, when lds servicemen went to Iraq to serve some tours, they helped fulfill the prophecy.  Is that filling the whole earth with a rock that is rolling forth? 

Often, I've noticed, prophecies of the past used to describe what is going on today have a pretty uneven fit.  Luckily in many cases the prophecies are vague enough for us to get an edge in, swing around our back end and wedge us in, even if it comes off as a pretty awkward look. 

Thoughts?

It's a metaphor.  If you think you can ever prove a metaphor wrong, good luck.  

 

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 

All that is certainly true, and I always seem to have great difficulty getting people on this board to see it.  So thanks for stating the real dilemma we all face.

However, bear in mind that stemelbow was asking for a citation, and I presented one which could conceivably be used for that purpose.  You could probably come up with other citations.  The real issue is How do we correctly interpret Scripture?  How do we know that any Scripture is even valid?  All any of us have is our faith and our own personal testimony -- hopefully based on the witness of the Holy Spirit.  That is the best we can do, despite whatever degree of sophistication we might bring to understanding Scripture.

I agree with you completely.  I doubt very much that you will get a Catholic or some other religion to agree that they don't have the witness of the Holy Spirit so, the scripture doesn't apply to their religion.  Heck, we can't even agree on what the prophesy means in the LDS church.

[Glenn101]

I agree with JHLPROF that the prophecy includes the Millennium when Christ is ruling personally. To me, that is the culmination of the prophecy. I do not know if the prophecy means that the LDS Church is the vehicle for the Kingdom of God here on the earth until that time, or what. And I don't really care about the possible nuances.

I fully expect that in the future the growth of the LDS Church will stagnate if not decline because of the persecution that has been prophesied to come to pass. I do not know if that persecution will be aimed at the LDS Church specifically of if it will be a general thing against Christianity, or even more general against religion.

The only thing I am confident about is that Christ will return and take charge.

Glenn

[Ahab]

The gospel will fill the whole earth.

The stone is the gospel. 

The prophecy is not saying the church or kingdom of God will fill the whole earth.

[JLHPROF]

36 minutes ago, Ahab said:

The gospel will fill the whole earth.

The stone is the gospel.

The prophecy is not saying the church or kingdom of God will fill the whole earth.

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

The stone is the Kingdom.  Not the Church.  Not the Gospel.  The Kingdom.  The one Christ will rule and reign over upon his return.
Some leaders have claimed the Church is the Kingdom.  Other leaders have claimed the Church is responsible for establishing the Kingdom.  Still other leaders have claimed that the Church and Kingdom are two separate organizations.

Either way, the stone is the Kingdom.

[Ahab]

11 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

The stone is the Kingdom.  Not the Church.  Not the Gospel.  The Kingdom.  The one Christ will rule and reign over upon his return.
Some leaders have claimed the Church is the Kingdom.  Other leaders have claimed the Church is responsible for establishing the Kingdom.  Still other leaders have claimed that the Church and Kingdom are two separate organizations.

Either way, the stone is the Kingdom.

Combine that prophecy with this one to see the bigger picture:

"The keys of the kingdom of God are committed unto man on the earth, and from thence shall the gospel roll forth unto the ends of the earth, as the stone which is cut out of the mountain without hands shall roll forth, until it has filled the whole earth."

The kingdom is here and we do have the keys of the kingdom but the stone rolling forth represents the gospel and it is the gospel that will fill the whole earth.

Notice the words: from thence shall the gospel roll forth..as the stone that is cut out of the mountain...until it ("it" being the gospel rolling forth from the kingdom of God) has filled the whole earth.

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation.

 

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Combine that prophecy with this one to see the bigger picture:

"The keys of the kingdom of God are committed unto man on the earth, and from thence shall the gospel roll forth unto the ends of the earth, as the stone which is cut out of the mountain without hands shall roll forth, until it has filled the whole earth."

The kingdom is here and we do have the keys of the kingdom but the stone rolling forth represents the gospel and it is the gospel that will fill the whole earth.

Notice the words: from thence shall the gospel roll forth..as the stone that is cut out of the mountain...until it ("it" being the gospel rolling forth from the kingdom of God) has filled the whole earth.

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation.

 

Fair enough.
But in Daniel, the stone is the Kingdom.
In that quote, the stone is the gospel.

So I guess it depends which is being referenced each time.  Because according to you quote the gospel rolls forth from within the Kingdom.  Perhaps in your referenced scripture the Mountain is the Kingdom.
Interesting when  you think about the temple.