Ahab Posted April 11, 2017 Posted April 11, 2017 2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Fair enough. But in Daniel, the stone is the Kingdom. In that quote, the stone is the gospel. So I guess it depends which is being referenced each time. Because according to you quote the gospel rolls forth from within the Kingdom. Perhaps in your referenced scripture the Mountain is the Kingdom. Interesting when you think about the temple. Daniel doesn't say the kingdom will fill the whole earth. He does say a lot regarding the kingdom and the keys of the kingdom, and the kingdom does have a lot to do in regard to the gospel rolling forth, but it is the gospel that will fill the whole earth, rather than the kingdom of God.
Guest Posted April 12, 2017 Posted April 12, 2017 10 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: No where does that prophecy claim that everyone in this life will join the Church. Not to mention the 1,000 years of Church growth to come after Christ returns.
Guest Posted April 12, 2017 Posted April 12, 2017 10 hours ago, stemelbow said: Often, I've noticed, prophecies of the past used to describe what is going on today have a pretty uneven fit. Luckily in many cases the prophecies are vague enough for us to get an edge in, swing around our back end and wedge us in, even if it comes off as a pretty awkward look. Thoughts? Two thoughts... 1. The Church will continue to grow until after Jesus Christ comes and throughout his 1,000 years rule. 2. All prophecies are vague, no matter what book of scripture they are found, until it has happened and we are looking back. However the Church will not have ever reached any incredible numbers on the world stage. There will always be few that find in on the straight and narrow path that leads to God. Broad in the way any many that lead to destruction. This sort of cheery picking of scripture is short sited.
RevTestament Posted April 12, 2017 Posted April 12, 2017 10 hours ago, stemelbow said: Agreed. But who has the impression that the Church's growth and influence would plateau? I'd agree filling the whole earth would not necessarily suggest all people will join the Church, but it does seem like the prophecy suggests a filling of the earth would require more than .1% of the earth to be members, that is, of course, if the prophecy is meant to refer to the Church as we often use it to mean. Maybe we need to reconsider the prophecy. Maybe there is no good actual reason to apply it to the Church. Perhaps without realizing it we are misapplying it. Maybe the gospel is filling the earth, as brotherly love spreads? Or something like that. What a novel idea! Maybe the mountain is the Church like in Daniel 11:45, and every other place in scripture, and the stone is revelation like Peter, the stone, the prophet Joseph Smith(rough stone rolling), the white stones of Revelation, the chief cornerstone found in our Savior, and every other place in scripture. 1
Atheist Mormon Posted April 12, 2017 Posted April 12, 2017 10 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: No where does that prophecy claim that everyone in this life will join the Church. What are you getting at? is current rate of 000.1% good enough?
Ahab Posted April 12, 2017 Posted April 12, 2017 10 hours ago, stemelbow said: Maybe we need to reconsider the prophecy. Maybe there is no good actual reason to apply it to the Church. Perhaps without realizing it we are misapplying it. Maybe the gospel is filling the earth, as brotherly love spreads? Or something like that. Kudos to you for being the first person in this thread to suggest that the stone that is rolling forth represents the gospel, rather than the Church. Was that planned in advance? Did you orchestrate this teaching moment?
Ahab Posted April 12, 2017 Posted April 12, 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, stemelbow said: Cool. I'd agree that the Rock is the Kingdom. But often we equate the kingdom of God as the Church. Can you help me locate any prophesies of plateauing? You blew it in your next post after you had suggested the stone maybe represented the gospel. Was that planned in advance? Did you intend to waffle in this teaching moment? Edited April 12, 2017 by Ahab
Robert F. Smith Posted April 12, 2017 Posted April 12, 2017 6 hours ago, california boy said: I agree with you completely. I doubt very much that you will get a Catholic or some other religion to agree that they don't have the witness of the Holy Spirit so, the scripture doesn't apply to their religion. Heck, we can't even agree on what the prophesy means in the LDS church. Most people kind of feel their way, rather than rigorously defining terms. As for Catholics, I am often pleasantly surprised at the wonderful things Rory says on this board. Leaves me with a feeling of gemütlichkeit.
sunstoned Posted April 12, 2017 Posted April 12, 2017 9 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: The Gospel is not the Church. The Church is the vehicle by which the Gospel is spread. I find nowhere in our Scriptures that precludes a short lived relative plateau in increasing membership. Maybe. But we are a very young church. Give us another 2000 years like the Catholics have had. Then maybe we can make that reconsideration. The SiFi series, Expanse, which is set many hundreds of years in the future portrays the the LDS church in a positive light, with active missionaries and an effort underway to build a large spaceship (called the Nauvoo) to be used for off world colonization (I know, seriously off topic, but I find this interesting). 1
The Nehor Posted April 12, 2017 Posted April 12, 2017 5 hours ago, Ahab said: Daniel doesn't say the kingdom will fill the whole earth. He does say a lot regarding the kingdom and the keys of the kingdom, and the kingdom does have a lot to do in regard to the gospel rolling forth, but it is the gospel that will fill the whole earth, rather than the kingdom of God. So what country is going to resist Christ when he comes so the Kingdom does not fill the whole Earth? My money is on Portugal and/or Malaysia.
The Nehor Posted April 12, 2017 Posted April 12, 2017 The rock is the Kingdom of God. It overcomes political kingdoms. The Church will be an integral part of that kingdom and is the Kingdom or will give birth to it (going off a popular interpretation of the Book of Revelation). It will not rule by force though some of the population will be relocated to the other side of the veil as the King returns to take up rulership.
The Nehor Posted April 12, 2017 Posted April 12, 2017 13 hours ago, stemelbow said: Agreed. But who has the impression that the Church's growth and influence would plateau? I'd agree filling the whole earth would not necessarily suggest all people will join the Church, but it does seem like the prophecy suggests a filling of the earth would require more than .1% of the earth to be members, that is, of course, if the prophecy is meant to refer to the Church as we often use it to mean. Maybe we need to reconsider the prophecy. Maybe there is no good actual reason to apply it to the Church. Perhaps without realizing it we are misapplying it. Maybe the gospel is filling the earth, as brotherly love spreads? Or something like that. Nephi's apocalyptic vision says that the faithful will be few in the end. There will be an end to our growth at some point. No idea if this plateau is temporary or the precursor to the end of days or something else. I would ask for a CFR that brotherly love is spreading if I believed in CFRs. 1
The Nehor Posted April 12, 2017 Posted April 12, 2017 (edited) 12 hours ago, california boy said: There are plenty of prophesies for everyone to claim in the Scriptures. Prophesies that even contradict each other. So when one prophesy fails, another is picked up as proof of divine guidance. What church could not claim the prophesy of Daniel as their own? What church could not claim a falling away? Is there even one prophesy that could be specifically labeled by everyone as a fulfillment of prophesy that only applies the Mormons? It isn't even limited to christian churches. How many prophesies including the one in Daniel could not be applied to the Muslin religion? Reading tea leaves is always easier when you have a motivation for wanting to claim the foretold outcome. Can anyone name a single prophesy that the only interpretation would be directed at the church? Prophecy is next to useless as a proof of anything. It is intended as a consolation and source of hope for the followers of God and not as evidence to others. Of course everyone claims it with interpretations, some more strained then others. Only the Spirit of God can tell people what is actually going to happen. Prophecy is an aid to revelation. Joseph Smith taught that to understand it you have to have the same spirit of prophecy the prophet did. One of my favorite indications of how easily people can twist something to show their victory comes from a friend of mine while he was on his mission. While church was meeting a congregation from another faith showed up at the meeting house and started marching around the building. They were a little confused but other then some singing a hymn they did not say anything and appeared non threatening so they he just watched with a member of the Bishopric and a few other members. After circling seven times they cried out and began to yell, some just made noise while others offered prayers. They then stared at the meetinghouse as if expecting it to fall. There was a little whispering and looks of disappointment until one of them yelled out: "Their spritiual walls are falling!" The crowd cheered this proclamation and they left. While not prophecy it is clear that some expected one thing and got another and some bright light immediately reinterpreted it. Be wary of those who reinterpret prophecy regularly to match their current desires or the current world news or whatever. They are not led by the Holy Ghost. Edit: Oh, and if you do not get that story read up on Joshua's campaign against the city of Jericho. Edited April 12, 2017 by The Nehor 1
strappinglad Posted April 12, 2017 Posted April 12, 2017 (edited) For the numberphiles in the crowd I give you this link. It has some interesting charts on LDS church growth vs world growth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints_membership_history To maintain our current %age of world population of about .2% we will have to gain about 2.4 million members by 2030. That's about 160,000 per year( we are currently running at 245,000). As the majority of world growth will take place in Africa over the next decades, I suggest that our growth will also have to take place there. Baring massive population loss from war/famine/ disease ,which, in Africa , could easily be a combination of all three, Church demographics will be WAY different by 2030. As I have said before , the statement about " the first shall be last and the last shall be first " can be anticipated as looking to be fulfilled in this way. Edited April 12, 2017 by strappinglad
california boy Posted April 12, 2017 Posted April 12, 2017 45 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Prophecy is next to useless as a proof of anything. It is intended as a consolation and source of hope for the followers of God and not as evidence to others. Of course everyone claims it with interpretations, some more strained then others. Only the Spirit of God can tell people what is actually going to happen. Prophecy is an aid to revelation. Joseph Smith taught that to understand it you have to have the same spirit of prophecy the prophet did. One of my favorite indications of how easily people can twist something to show their victory comes from a friend of mine while he was on his mission. While church was meeting a congregation from another faith showed up at the meeting house and started marching around the building. They were a little confused but other then some singing a hymn they did not say anything and appeared non threatening so they he just watched with a member of the Bishopric and a few other members. After circling seven times they cried out and began to yell, some just made noise while others offered prayers. They then stared at the meetinghouse as if expecting it to fall. There was a little whispering and looks of disappointment until one of them yelled out: "Their spritiual walls are falling!" The crowd cheered this proclamation and they left. While not prophecy it is clear that some expected one thing and got another and some bright light immediately reinterpreted it. Be wary of those who reinterpret prophecy regularly to match their current desires or the current world news or whatever. They are not led by the Holy Ghost. Edit: Oh, and if you do not get that story read up on Joshua's campaign against the city of Jericho. Great story. And yes, I got the reference.
Calm Posted April 12, 2017 Posted April 12, 2017 1 hour ago, strappinglad said: For the numberphiles in the crowd I give you this link. It has some interesting charts on LDS church growth vs world growth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints_membership_history To maintain our current %age of world population of about .2% we will have to gain about 2.4 million members by 2030. That's about 160,000 per year( we are currently running at 245,000). As the majority of world growth will take place in Africa over the next decades, I suggest that our growth will also have to take place there. I am so looking forward to seeing this (I like watching people and things change...for good reasons, it is depressing when it happens for bad). Current North America centric members (those of us who have lived most of our lives here where the Church has grown up) will have some great opportunities to think about and act out the Gospel and the Church in new ways and from what I have heard (not much, it is true), church teachings and the better parts of church culture could have a big effect on many new growth families...win-win for everyone.
The Nehor Posted April 12, 2017 Posted April 12, 2017 7 hours ago, california boy said: Great story. And yes, I got the reference. I figured you would. Put that note in for other readers and voyeurs.
stemelbow Posted April 12, 2017 Author Posted April 12, 2017 18 hours ago, rongo said: I actually see the scriptures (particularly the Book of Mormon) predicting a decline in the Church, and a shift from the Gentiles (the current driving element of northern European descent) to the Lamanites. Plus, a lot of the eschatological teachings from the past paint a Church besieged by society in a crumbling world --- hardly the continuation of Rodney Stark-esque projections. I see the stone filling the whole earth in terms of scope and presence, not numerical superiority or acceptance. I don't know many people who actually expected or expect the Church to gain numerical superiority or wide acceptance. I think we've been spoiled by the last couple of decades of prosperity and calm. Heya, I'm curious what sources you think of when you say you see the scriptures predicting a decline? Thanks, sir.
stemelbow Posted April 12, 2017 Author Posted April 12, 2017 11 hours ago, Ahab said: You blew it in your next post after you had suggested the stone maybe represented the gospel. Was that planned in advance? Did you intend to waffle in this teaching moment? Allow me to clarify then. I'd say the best representation of the stone is the gospel, what the gospel is might be another story though. I meant to agree with JHLprof that the Church often represents the rock in the metaphor as the kingdom of God, which also the Church often represents the kingdom of God as the Church. SO there you go.
stemelbow Posted April 12, 2017 Author Posted April 12, 2017 (edited) 8 hours ago, The Nehor said: Prophecy is next to useless as a proof of anything. It is intended as a consolation and source of hope for the followers of God and not as evidence to others. Of course everyone claims it with interpretations, some more strained then others. Only the Spirit of God can tell people what is actually going to happen. Prophecy is an aid to revelation. Joseph Smith taught that to understand it you have to have the same spirit of prophecy the prophet did. One of my favorite indications of how easily people can twist something to show their victory comes from a friend of mine while he was on his mission. While church was meeting a congregation from another faith showed up at the meeting house and started marching around the building. They were a little confused but other then some singing a hymn they did not say anything and appeared non threatening so they he just watched with a member of the Bishopric and a few other members. After circling seven times they cried out and began to yell, some just made noise while others offered prayers. They then stared at the meetinghouse as if expecting it to fall. There was a little whispering and looks of disappointment until one of them yelled out: "Their spritiual walls are falling!" The crowd cheered this proclamation and they left. While not prophecy it is clear that some expected one thing and got another and some bright light immediately reinterpreted it. Be wary of those who reinterpret prophecy regularly to match their current desires or the current world news or whatever. They are not led by the Holy Ghost. Edit: Oh, and if you do not get that story read up on Joshua's campaign against the city of Jericho. Well kinda like this past Sunday at testimony meeting. A dear bro in the ward got up and described how he and his family got in a wreck on the drive home after a campign trip. They ran into a cow. But says he, "I have a renewed testimony of the power of prayer. We prayed we'd get home without getting in a wreck but the spirit of the prayer worked because no one got seriously injured. Any one of us could have died." Alright, whatever. Edited April 12, 2017 by stemelbow
stemelbow Posted April 12, 2017 Author Posted April 12, 2017 8 hours ago, The Nehor said: Nephi's apocalyptic vision says that the faithful will be few in the end. There will be an end to our growth at some point. No idea if this plateau is temporary or the precursor to the end of days or something else. I would ask for a CFR that brotherly love is spreading if I believed in CFRs. we could be 15% of the world's pop and still be few in the end. 0 our of 100 is not few. It's 0. But 15 out of 100 is few, right?
stemelbow Posted April 12, 2017 Author Posted April 12, 2017 8 hours ago, The Nehor said: Nephi's apocalyptic vision says that the faithful will be few in the end. There will be an end to our growth at some point. No idea if this plateau is temporary or the precursor to the end of days or something else. I would ask for a CFR that brotherly love is spreading if I believed in CFRs. Alright I decided to readdress this. says Nephi: Quote 10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth. 12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw. If one Church here represents the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day blah blah....and the other is represented by all those who are not of the LDS Church, then your reading of Nephi might make some sense, although some might suggest we're a fall cry from being upon all the face of the earth. But ok. I'll buy it for argument's sake. Our problem remains though, we have to figure out how to stretch ourselves over the face of the whole earth, when as of recent trends, we are not growing and stretching across the globe. What do we do now?
stemelbow Posted April 12, 2017 Author Posted April 12, 2017 8 hours ago, strappinglad said: For the numberphiles in the crowd I give you this link. It has some interesting charts on LDS church growth vs world growth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints_membership_history To maintain our current %age of world population of about .2% we will have to gain about 2.4 million members by 2030. That's about 160,000 per year( we are currently running at 245,000). As the majority of world growth will take place in Africa over the next decades, I suggest that our growth will also have to take place there. Baring massive population loss from war/famine/ disease ,which, in Africa , could easily be a combination of all three, Church demographics will be WAY different by 2030. As I have said before , the statement about " the first shall be last and the last shall be first " can be anticipated as looking to be fulfilled in this way. Interestingly, the chart you link doesn't include the two most recent years, wherein the Church's growth has fallen short of the world's growth rate. Last year our growth rate was down to 1.59%, which is historically low, which rate was historically low the year before at 1.7%. I'm not sure you are correct in suggesting in order to remain at .2% of the world's pop. We reached .2% of the world's population in 2008, less than 10 years ago. We hit a peak as we continued to grow faster than the world's population. But that will, if current trends continue, continue to shrink. We could easily drop below .2% again in less than 10 years. not all is lost of course. Not all is looking down. We can change and adapt. Hopefully we do.
Ahab Posted April 12, 2017 Posted April 12, 2017 10 hours ago, The Nehor said: So what country is going to resist Christ when he comes so the Kingdom does not fill the whole Earth? My money is on Portugal and/or Malaysia. I think there will be a lot of honorable men... Terrestrial glory types... who will be deceived into thinking that Christ isn't Christ when he comes. Some thinking he is just an alien from outer space who is trying to take over their/our planet. All the Telestial types will have been killed or otherwise dismissed from mortality and fear will generally prevail in the minds of many people. The veil will not be lifted then, ya know, so people will still be able to believe pretty much whatever they want to believe. So there will still be many Muslims and Buddhists and all kinds of Christians, etc. much like there are now, and not only members of our Lord's church/kingdom.
strappinglad Posted April 12, 2017 Posted April 12, 2017 1 hour ago, stemelbow said: Interestingly, the chart you link doesn't include the two most recent years, wherein the Church's growth has fallen short of the world's growth rate. Last year our growth rate was down to 1.59%, which is historically low, which rate was historically low the year before at 1.7%. I'm not sure you are correct in suggesting in order to remain at .2% of the world's pop. We reached .2% of the world's population in 2008, less than 10 years ago. We hit a peak as we continued to grow faster than the world's population. But that will, if current trends continue, continue to shrink. We could easily drop below .2% again in less than 10 years. not all is lost of course. Not all is looking down. We can change and adapt. Hopefully we do. Two years does not a trend make. One of the charts I linked to shows church growth rates compared to world rates. Church rates are all over the map while world rates show a very slow decline.
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