Confirmation through the spirit or feelings?

[snowflake]

1 minute ago, Gray said:

Yes, the Bible, Book of Mormon, POGP, D&C, Quran, Vedas, etc. None of them are history texts, of course. 

Did Jesus even really exist? (historically speaking?)

[Erika Henderson]

Hi Everyone,  I am new here and found this thread very interesting.  Here is a short version of my story and experience and would like to see what you think.

1. I was raised in the lds church by convert parents who joined the church in Germany. I basically trusted and believed their testimony and accepted it as true. I loved the idea of a modern day prophet to guide us in these latter days and in continuing revelation. I liked the idea of the pursuit of excellence, and the plan of salvation that man could become 'gods',  Alot of things made sense in the lds church to me and things that bothered me, I just put on a shelf for later understanding.

2. At 21, I served a two year mission in Austria. Europe is a difficult mission for baptizing and I hated tracting 60-80 hours a week.  This is when I began questioning my faith.  People threw alot of questions at me about spiritual things and this is when I really decided I better get my own testimony as I did not want to be doing this if the church was not true. I became more and more confused and had pretty much lost my faith in God and the church by the time I got home.  I had asked God if Joseph Smith was his prophet and this was his restored church but got no spiritual witness or feeling.

3.  After my mission, I still wanted to believe in God and the church, so I took some institute classes on the campus of UNLV.  I met my future husband in a Book of Mormon class.  He was not a member, agnostic, but searching for spiritual truths. He thought the lds church had a rational theology and decided to join. We got married civilly and had alot of interesting gospel discussions. He was a very honest, sincere man. He finally decided to test Moroni's promise and wanted that spiritual witness everyone talked about.  He believed that a spiritual witness would be like the one "Peter, had in the Bible when Jesus told him that flesh and blood had not reveled that to him, but the Holy Spirit."  My husband just wanted that complete assurance where he no longer doubted but felt sure.  He fasted many days and prayed for an answer in regards to the Book of Mormon. None came, and it frustrated him. He loved Paul Dunn and decided to rely on his testimony. When he found out about the fabrication stories, it really upset him. He told me that if a good man like Paul Dunn could fabricate his spiritual experiences, then maybe JS did too. From that day on he stopped going to church.

4. I continued going to church and loved my callings but was very depressed that my husband had left the church. In a fast and testimony meeting one Sunday, where many men were bearing their testimonies, I began crying so hard, wondering why God had not given my husband a spiritual witness. Out of the blue, a thought went through my head at that moment, :Why don't you go visit that 7th Day Adventist Church down the street?  I wondered where that thought had come from out of the blue? 3 more times that thought went through my head. So, when I got home, I told my husband about my experience.  He said, "Well, let's follow that premonition and see where it leads."  So, we did and met this amazing pastor who really helped us come to Christ. I prayed about the 7th Day Adventist church and the lds church and the thoughts that came to me were: "I work through all churches and through all sincere people who are seeking me."  I lead different people to different churches, depending what they need at that time.  All I wanted to know was God's will for my family. I learned that the Savior did not come to save me from my problems, but from my sins.

5. Long story short, God has led our family to several other churches since then.  We were in a Nazarene church for two years and have been in a United Church of Christ for the past 4 years.  We have met amazing people who have the Holy Spirit so strong with them and learned that the lds church does not have a monopoly on the Holy Ghost. We have a gay son who almost killed himself from thinking he was going to hell by his lds Sunday school teachers. He left the lds church and lost his faith in God and Jesus. The pastor in our United Church of Christ is gay and married to his partner.  He took our son under his wings and prayed with him many times. Today, my gay son has faith in Christ again.

So, after reading most of the posts here, it is my conclusion that God works with us very individually and if you are sincere, he will guide you in a path that is best for your and your family. 

[Ahab]

7 minutes ago, Gray said:

Illustrating the problem with this method. 

When other people don't agree with what God says it is their own fault, not God's fault.

7 minutes ago, Gray said:

I use the word universally because "only church with his priesthood" is attempting to set a universal fact down. You're not praying to know what church is right for you (correct use of revelation), you're praying to know what church is right period (incorrect use). 

Then Yes God has told me which church has his priesthood authority universally. It is the church with his priesthood authority, universally, even though some other people do not agree that it is.

[bluebell]

26 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Several times from cover to cover.

Great.  If you've asked with real intent and with a sincere desire to act on the answer that you receive, that's all that is asked of you.

[Ahab]

5 minutes ago, Erika Henderson said:

Hi Everyone,  I am new here and found this thread very interesting.  Here is a short version of my story and experience and would like to see what you think.

1. I was raised in the lds church by convert parents who joined the church in Germany. I basically trusted and believed their testimony and accepted it as true. I loved the idea of a modern day prophet to guide us in these latter days and in continuing revelation. I liked the idea of the pursuit of excellence, and the plan of salvation that man could become 'gods',  Alot of things made sense in the lds church to me and things that bothered me, I just put on a shelf for later understanding.

2. At 21, I served a two year mission in Austria. Europe is a difficult mission for baptizing and I hated tracting 60-80 hours a week.  This is when I began questioning my faith.  People threw alot of questions at me about spiritual things and this is when I really decided I better get my own testimony as I did not want to be doing this if the church was not true. I became more and more confused and had pretty much lost my faith in God and the church by the time I got home.  I had asked God if Joseph Smith was his prophet and this was his restored church but got no spiritual witness or feeling.

3.  After my mission, I still wanted to believe in God and the church, so I took some institute classes on the campus of UNLV.  I met my future husband in a Book of Mormon class.  He was not a member, agnostic, but searching for spiritual truths. He thought the lds church had a rational theology and decided to join. We got married civilly and had alot of interesting gospel discussions. He was a very honest, sincere man. He finally decided to test Moroni's promise and wanted that spiritual witness everyone talked about.  He believed that a spiritual witness would be like the one "Peter, had in the Bible when Jesus told him that flesh and blood had not reveled that to him, but the Holy Spirit."  My husband just wanted that complete assurance where he no longer doubted but felt sure.  He fasted many days and prayed for an answer in regards to the Book of Mormon. None came, and it frustrated him. He loved Paul Dunn and decided to rely on his testimony. When he found out about the fabrication stories, it really upset him. He told me that if a good man like Paul Dunn could fabricate his spiritual experiences, then maybe JS did too. From that day on he stopped going to church.

4. I continued going to church and loved my callings but was very depressed that my husband had left the church. In a fast and testimony meeting one Sunday, where many men were bearing their testimonies, I began crying so hard, wondering why God had not given my husband a spiritual witness. Out of the blue, a thought went through my head at that moment, :Why don't you go visit that 7th Day Adventist Church down the street?  I wondered where that thought had come from out of the blue? 3 more times that thought went through my head. So, when I got home, I told my husband about my experience.  He said, "Well, let's follow that premonition and see where it leads."  So, we did and met this amazing pastor who really helped us come to Christ. I prayed about the 7th Day Adventist church and the lds church and the thoughts that came to me were: "I work through all churches and through all sincere people who are seeking me."  I lead different people to different churches, depending what they need at that time.  All I wanted to know was God's will for my family. I learned that the Savior did not come to save me from my problems, but from my sins.

5. Long story short, God has led our family to several other churches since then.  We were in a Nazarene church for two years and have been in a United Church of Christ for the past 4 years.  We have met amazing people who have the Holy Spirit so strong with them and learned that the lds church does not have a monopoly on the Holy Ghost. We have a gay son who almost killed himself from thinking he was going to hell by his lds Sunday school teachers. He left the lds church and lost his faith in God and Jesus. The pastor in our United Church of Christ is gay and married to his partner.  He took our son under his wings and prayed with him many times. Today, my gay son has faith in Christ again.

So, after reading most of the posts here, it is my conclusion that God works with us very individually and if you are sincere, he will guide you in a path that is best for your and your family. 

All churches have some good in them... some good teachings and some good people... but only one church for mortals now on this planet has the same priesthood keys and authority as our Lord and our Father in heaven.  And I believe that if you continue to seek it to become a part of it that you will someday realize which church it really is.

 

 

[Gray]

44 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Did Jesus even really exist? (historically speaking?)

Yes, the consensus is that Jesus was a historical person. 

[Gray]

33 minutes ago, Ahab said:

When other people don't agree with what God says it is their own fault, not God's fault.

 

Unfortunately there is no way for anyone to know for sure who is right. It's totally subjective.

 

 

[Ahab]

8 minutes ago, Gray said:

 

Unfortunately there is no way for anyone to know for sure who is right. It's totally subjective.

The way to know is to be one of those subjective people who know.  Everything knowable is determined subjectively at some point.

[snowflake]

17 minutes ago, Gray said:

Yes, the consensus is that Jesus was a historical person. 

And how would one come to that consensus? How could you really prove he existed?

[stemelbow]

52 minutes ago, Erika Henderson said:

Hi Everyone,  I am new here and found this thread very interesting.  Here is a short version of my story and experience and would like to see what you think.

1. I was raised in the lds church by convert parents who joined the church in Germany. I basically trusted and believed their testimony and accepted it as true. I loved the idea of a modern day prophet to guide us in these latter days and in continuing revelation. I liked the idea of the pursuit of excellence, and the plan of salvation that man could become 'gods',  Alot of things made sense in the lds church to me and things that bothered me, I just put on a shelf for later understanding.

2. At 21, I served a two year mission in Austria. Europe is a difficult mission for baptizing and I hated tracting 60-80 hours a week.  This is when I began questioning my faith.  People threw alot of questions at me about spiritual things and this is when I really decided I better get my own testimony as I did not want to be doing this if the church was not true. I became more and more confused and had pretty much lost my faith in God and the church by the time I got home.  I had asked God if Joseph Smith was his prophet and this was his restored church but got no spiritual witness or feeling.

3.  After my mission, I still wanted to believe in God and the church, so I took some institute classes on the campus of UNLV.  I met my future husband in a Book of Mormon class.  He was not a member, agnostic, but searching for spiritual truths. He thought the lds church had a rational theology and decided to join. We got married civilly and had alot of interesting gospel discussions. He was a very honest, sincere man. He finally decided to test Moroni's promise and wanted that spiritual witness everyone talked about.  He believed that a spiritual witness would be like the one "Peter, had in the Bible when Jesus told him that flesh and blood had not reveled that to him, but the Holy Spirit."  My husband just wanted that complete assurance where he no longer doubted but felt sure.  He fasted many days and prayed for an answer in regards to the Book of Mormon. None came, and it frustrated him. He loved Paul Dunn and decided to rely on his testimony. When he found out about the fabrication stories, it really upset him. He told me that if a good man like Paul Dunn could fabricate his spiritual experiences, then maybe JS did too. From that day on he stopped going to church.

4. I continued going to church and loved my callings but was very depressed that my husband had left the church. In a fast and testimony meeting one Sunday, where many men were bearing their testimonies, I began crying so hard, wondering why God had not given my husband a spiritual witness. Out of the blue, a thought went through my head at that moment, :Why don't you go visit that 7th Day Adventist Church down the street?  I wondered where that thought had come from out of the blue? 3 more times that thought went through my head. So, when I got home, I told my husband about my experience.  He said, "Well, let's follow that premonition and see where it leads."  So, we did and met this amazing pastor who really helped us come to Christ. I prayed about the 7th Day Adventist church and the lds church and the thoughts that came to me were: "I work through all churches and through all sincere people who are seeking me."  I lead different people to different churches, depending what they need at that time.  All I wanted to know was God's will for my family. I learned that the Savior did not come to save me from my problems, but from my sins.

5. Long story short, God has led our family to several other churches since then.  We were in a Nazarene church for two years and have been in a United Church of Christ for the past 4 years.  We have met amazing people who have the Holy Spirit so strong with them and learned that the lds church does not have a monopoly on the Holy Ghost. We have a gay son who almost killed himself from thinking he was going to hell by his lds Sunday school teachers. He left the lds church and lost his faith in God and Jesus. The pastor in our United Church of Christ is gay and married to his partner.  He took our son under his wings and prayed with him many times. Today, my gay son has faith in Christ again.

So, after reading most of the posts here, it is my conclusion that God works with us very individually and if you are sincere, he will guide you in a path that is best for your and your family. 

Thanks for sharing.  I enjoyed reading a synopsis of your story, Erika. 

[Gray]

17 minutes ago, Ahab said:

The way to know is to be one of those subjective people who know.  Everything knowable is determined subjectively at some point.

Just like someone else knows something totally different from what you know. 

[Calm]

Welcome to the board, Erika.  It sounds like you have found a path that works for your family to seek God together.  That is a good thing.

[pogi]

56 minutes ago, Erika Henderson said:

So, after reading most of the posts here, it is my conclusion that God works with us very individually and if you are sincere, he will guide you in a path that is best for your and your family. 

Welcome to the boards, and thanks for sharing!

I don't think that Joseph Smith would disagree with your comment above.  That is what it is all about!   Keep your heart soil soft and sincere and God's word will grow line upon line and precept upon precept in your quest for enlightenment.  Given my personal experience, I wouldn't be surprised to see you come full circle one day back to your faith origins.  It sounds like your heart is in the right place and that makes me happy to hear. 

 

[Erika Henderson]

Thank you for your welcoming and replies.  I do believe we can learn from each other through these discussions. Reminds me of  10 people at the scene of a big car accident. Each person is standing around the accident with a different view. Combing everyone's view gives us a more complete picture. We all may not see the same thing but from our view we are correct.  Ahab, my husband and I have not had any positive experiences with the priesthood authority.  His worst was when he finally felt the spirit telling him this woman he visit taught who was in the hospital with her non member relatives, that she would survive the surgery and still live a long life. She died the next morning and it real shook him and this ladies family. Temple experiences for us have not been good either.  It's difficult for people like us when others tell you how wonderful their experiences were.  We did not feel like unworthy or bad people.

[Ahab]

6 minutes ago, Gray said:

Just like someone else knows something totally different from what you know. 

Different doesn't necessarily equate to conflicting or opposing views.

There is no proof that something is not true, because it is not possible to prove a negative, so anytime someone says they don't believe something is true it is based on what they understand is true and their sense that anything conflicting can not be true.

I know which church has our Lord's authority, for example, and I see no conflict between my knowledge on this and your or someone else's unbelief that this is true. You and they simply do not know what I know, but your unbelief doesn't unmake or cancel out what I know as true is true.

[Ahab]

9 minutes ago, Erika Henderson said:

Thank you for your welcoming and replies.  I do believe we can learn from each other through these discussions. Reminds me of  10 people at the scene of a big car accident. Each person is standing around the accident with a different view. Combing everyone's view gives us a more complete picture. We all may not see the same thing but from our view we are correct.  Ahab, my husband and I have not had any positive experiences with the priesthood authority.  His worst was when he finally felt the spirit telling him this woman he visit taught who was in the hospital with her non member relatives, that she would survive the surgery and still live a long life. She died the next morning and it real shook him and this ladies family. Temple experiences for us have not been good either.  It's difficult for people like us when others tell you how wonderful their experiences were.  We did not feel like unworthy or bad people.

I see errors in the Church very often and they are fairly easy for me to point out. People in the Church are not perfect and they/we make many, many mistakes. But that doesn't mean the members of the Church do not have our Lord's priesthood authority. My favorite analogy are the legal authorities that operate all over the world, each in their own areas, with regular citizens of each governed area being set apart before being given authority to govern over the governed. The authority can't be just assumed, and it isn't just about knowing the rules or laws.

Anyway, yes, unfortunate that you'very known some people in the Church who have made some mistakes but that doesn't mean that what is good and true isn't still good and true.

[Jeanne]

40 minutes ago, Erika Henderson said:

Thank you for your welcoming and replies.  I do believe we can learn from each other through these discussions. Reminds me of  10 people at the scene of a big car accident. Each person is standing around the accident with a different view. Combing everyone's view gives us a more complete picture. We all may not see the same thing but from our view we are correct.  Ahab, my husband and I have not had any positive experiences with the priesthood authority.  His worst was when he finally felt the spirit telling him this woman he visit taught who was in the hospital with her non member relatives, that she would survive the surgery and still live a long life. She died the next morning and it real shook him and this ladies family. Temple experiences for us have not been good either.  It's difficult for people like us when others tell you how wonderful their experiences were.  We did not feel like unworthy or bad people.

Welcome Erika!  I look forward to your comments should you visit other threads.  Best to you!

[Erika Henderson]

Thank you Jeanne.  I will take a look at other threads for sure. I love the admonition by Paul to 'prove all things and hold fast to that which is true."  One of my gifts is teaching.  I taught for many years in RS, and GD teacher and Gprinciples class.  Now, I teach Bible study classes in the Nazarene church, Christ Community Church and adult Sunday school class at the United Church of Christ.  I surprise myself when I accidently put some lds teachings in those classes and these people just gobble it up.  Truth is truth where ever you find it, I say and I think JS said that too. It was funny when one of my Bible study classes, the women brought up about Adam and Eve and how they spoiled the plan. One lady brought up that God must have known that Adam and Eve would eat the forbidden fruit.  I made the point that I agreed with her and that maybe this earth life we are going through is part of God's plan so we can make experiences that will help us mature and grow, rather than being a bad thing (like many evangelicals teach).  It was kind of funny to me how many of the women loved my concept and it was utterly new to them and made them feel better about this earth life. 

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, Gray said:

 

Unfortunately there is no way for anyone to know for sure who is right. It's totally subjective.

 

 

Not at all.
Unless you don't believe God actually speaks.

[Ahab]

41 minutes ago, Erika Henderson said:

Thank you Jeanne.  I will take a look at other threads for sure. I love the admonition by Paul to 'prove all things and hold fast to that which is true."  One of my gifts is teaching.  I taught for many years in RS, and GD teacher and Gprinciples class.  Now, I teach Bible study classes in the Nazarene church, Christ Community Church and adult Sunday school class at the United Church of Christ.  I surprise myself when I accidently put some lds teachings in those classes and these people just gobble it up.  Truth is truth where ever you find it, I say and I think JS said that too. It was funny when one of my Bible study classes, the women brought up about Adam and Eve and how they spoiled the plan. One lady brought up that God must have known that Adam and Eve would eat the forbidden fruit.  I made the point that I agreed with her and that maybe this earth life we are going through is part of God's plan so we can make experiences that will help us mature and grow, rather than being a bad thing (like many evangelicals teach).  It was kind of funny to me how many of the women loved my concept and it was utterly new to them and made them feel better about this earth life. 

I like the sound of that. Keep up the good work!

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

Just look at what HappyJackWagon said to you with regard to your comments toward me (before the video misunderstanding):  

"Nothing you said previously matters because you say things like this. You are assigning motivation of ill intent and dishonesty to what has been a challenging discussion. When you fail to recognize the value of a discussion partner, the discussion cannot continue. In other words, you've killed the discussion by making harsh accusations."

Of course, and HappyJack often says things which are helpful in keeping any of us from running amuck.  I appreciated his comments. The problem is that you don't recognize that a conversation is a two-way street, and HappyJack ignored the deeply problematic nature of your negative approach -- which led to your continuing failure to pay attention to what is actually being said by others during the discussion, and hence led inexorably to your failure in the non-Muhlestein video issue.  Those problems can only be avoided if one is mindful of what is actually being discussed and attempts to participate fully in the conversational give and take.  The thing that HappyJack missed is that my "harsh accusations" were right on the money.  With everyone trying to be cordial and politically correct these days, it is less what you say than how you say it, thus giving substantive argument a bum rap.

[Mars]

2 hours ago, Gray said:

Unfortunately there is no way for anyone to know for sure who is right. It's totally subjective.

and i'm fine totally fine with that.

[Mars]

32 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Not at all.
Unless you don't believe God actually speaks.

i agree with Gray.

i am confident in my spiritual experiences.  i "know" it's true, so to speak.  but i can't transfer that knowledge.  i can only invite others to try it and let them decide for themselves.  in that sense, no one can know for sure.  you can't know without subscribing to it.  in normal non-religious talk, that means i can't know for sure.  i can't know without commitment and sacrifice and investment.  which is what a lot of people want...  why invest in something you might be wrong about?  and yet, if any man do the Father's will, he will know of the doctrine.

maybe i misunderstood the both of you.  my apologies if so!

[Gray]

4 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Not at all.
Unless you don't believe God actually speaks.

Even if God actually speaks, the experience of revelation is subjective.

[Stargazer]

12 hours ago, snowflake said:

Absolutely, I pray for wisdom when studying the Bible, as James 1 says. I trust the Bible much more than I trust my feelings. People, places, dates, cities, cultures, kingdoms, mountains, rivers,  tens of thousands of manuscripts support the text in multiple varying languages, not to mention the prophicies. In studying these pieces of evidence it gives me confidence in the Book and the book's accuracy and the claims that it makes. If you want to throw all the evidence out as unconvincing that is up to you. You obviously are an educated and eloquent person. Be intellectually honest with yourself and compare evidence for the two books against each other.  I submit to you that the book of Daniel alone has more historically documented people, places and objects than the entirety of the BOM. Where is the BOM museum? Where is the evidence for the cultures described. Is there a single manuscript pre 1830 to support the text?   

<snip/>

People pray about the BOM to know it's truth, I prayed and have been told that it is fiction.  

Here I go again.  I wish I could condense this more than I have.

You're entitled to your conviction that you've been told that the Book of Mormon is fiction.  I've been told differently, or, at least, I've been told that the Book of Mormon is of God in like fashion as the Bible is.  Clearly we've received our divergent testimonies from different sources.  

I do appreciate the fact that there is plenty of archaeological evidence for the historicity of the Bible.  And I am amused that you think that I am "throw[ing] all the evidence [for the Bible] out as unconvincing", since I am not at all disputing the divine origin and the truthfulness of the Bible.  I thought I made it very clear that I have a testimony of the divine origin of the Bible, and of the One of whom the Bible was made to testify of, namely Jesus Christ  But every bit of evidence you write of above is secular!  So what if the "People, places, dates, cities, cultures, kingdoms, mountains, rivers" and so on can be shown to be evidenced through archaeology?  What difference does that make?  The only thing that evidence can prove is that the Bible correlates with human history (and I hate to break it to you, but the Bible does have some inaccurate history as well).  If it were found that there were archaeological evidence for the historicity of the Bhagavad Gita (a Hindu scripture), would you then believe in Vishnu or Krishna?  I should hope you wouldn't, because historicity is not divinity!  Either the Bible is of true divine origin, or it is a sometimes reliable book of ancient history.  The latter can be shown by objective secular research to be the case, but the former cannot be.  Or if you think it can, please enlighten me.  

Find me archaeological evidence of the Resurrection of Christ. Find me archaeological evidence of the Atonement.  Find me archaeological evidence that proves when Jesus was baptized the Holy Ghost descended upon Him in the form of a dove. There is none. There is no objective secular evidence whatsoever that Lazarus, the daughter of Jairus, and the son of the widow of Nain were raised from the dead by Jesus.  And no archaeology whatsoever can prove any of it.  I accept this particular lack of historicity, but I nevertheless believe that these things happened.  But this belief of mine exists because I have received a spiritual witness that the Book of Mormon is the word of God, and the Book of Mormon testifies of the divine origin of the Bible, and therefore by extension I have received a spiritual witness (a witness originating from the Spirit of God into my heart) that the Bible is true.  You might not like how I got that witness, but that's the way it is.

If you want me to be intellectually honest with myself, very well.  When it comes to archaeological evidence for the Book of Mormon, there is a small amount, though nowhere near as much as there is for the Bible.  But there is a huge difference between how we got the Bible and how we got the Book of Mormon.  

The Bible clearly originates from writings going back thousands of years, including writings upon materials dating to around the time of Christ (the Dead Sea Scrolls). And some of the events described in the Bible correlate to events described in other ancient writings  But the fact that we have archaeological evidence for the Bible doesn't mean much, spiritually speaking, because from a secular point of view we know exactly how it came to be.  On the other hand, the Book of Mormon apparently originates from the imagination of a young, uneducated, backwoods farmhand of the early 19th century in the US.  That farmhand, Joseph Smith, made miraculous claims about how he got the book, and from a secular viewpoint those claims are quite extraordinary.  Those origination claims cannot be archaeologically proven, as they are quite supernatural, and so far, neither can the secular historical claims of the Book of Mormon be proven either (e.g. where are the ruins of Zarahemla?).  

But ask yourself, what would happen if Zarahemla were to be unequivocally identified somewhere in the Mesoamerican rain forest?  And that a codex were discovered that identified events as portrayed in the Book of Mormon!  Well, then we would have smoking gun proof that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God.  Otherwise, how could he possibly have known about it?  His claim to have been visited by the Father and the Son, and by the angel Moroni, and John the Baptist, and Peter, James and John would suddenly be a lot more credible than that claim is now, wouldn't it?  In fact, you'd be downright uncomfortable sitting there claiming that God had told you the Book of Mormon was fiction, wouldn't you?  It would be exactly as if some kind of incontrovertible evidence were to be found that proved Jesus was risen from the dead.  And how come this has not been forthcoming?  Surely God could provide such evidence, couldn't He?  I'd guess that He is capable of it, but the fact that he has not provided it means that He expects you to prove it to yourself, spiritually.  This says to me that God wants us to come to Him in faith, seeking spiritual confirmation of His love for us as expressed through His Son Jesus Christ.  By the same token, if we could find secular proof of the Book of Mormon's historicity, it would place us in the same place we would be in if Christ's resurrection could be secularly proven.  In short, we would no longer be able to walk by faith, because we would have knowledge.  If God wants us to have such secular proof (knowledge), in any aspect of the Gospel, there is no evidence of it.  And since I happen to believe that God is omnipotent, I have to accept the fact that He wants us to walk by faith, and not by knowledge.  Hence, God cannot allow the Book of Mormon to be proven secularly.  Therefore, seeking such proof before one will believe places one in the exact same place as those who sought signs placed themselves.  "A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign...." (Matt. 16:4)
 

Edited April 4, 2017 by Stargazer