Confirmation through the spirit or feelings?

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Take polygamy for an example.  one could decide as BY and others did that polygamy was more godly than monogamy.  One might even think that polygamy is essential for exaltation, as per words of past prophets.  This one, one might suggest would claim to be listening to God over man.  But really it's man's message that comes to him.  Now contrast this with another.  Let's say this one is adamantly opposed to polygamy.  That this one has decided it's a horrific system that was never allowed or commanded of God.  That it was man who made up the notion that it is godly and good.  And largely his decision to see it that way is based on studies and research.  Is one more reliant upon another man than another?  Is it not true that God can teach and expound to an individual through other people? 

With that said, is it more trusting of God to think the world is 6,000 years old than to think the genesis story is myth? 

It is more trusting of God to trust what God has said whether or not other people agree with him.

[6EQUJ5]

15 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I prefer it when you speak for yourself like this 

I agree with stem.  At times we are all fools.  That's the purpose of life.  To give us the opportunity to learn and grow and put away our foolish sins and attitudes.

[JLHPROF]

10 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Take polygamy for an example.  one could decide as BY and others did that polygamy was more godly than monogamy.  One might even think that polygamy is essential for exaltation, as per words of past prophets.  This one, one might suggest would claim to be listening to God over man.  But really it's man's message that comes to him.  Now contrast this with another.  Let's say this one is adamantly opposed to polygamy.  That this one has decided it's a horrific system that was never allowed or commanded of God.  That it was man who made up the notion that it is godly and good.  And largely his decision to see it that way is based on studies and research.  Is one more reliant upon another man than another?  Is it not true that God can teach and expound to an individual through other people?

With that said, is it more trusting of God to think the world is 6,000 years old than to think the genesis story is myth?

The issue is asking God about something when you've already made up your mind based on man's evidences.
You aren't going to get that answer.

If Joseph had walked into the sacred grove and said "Hey, I've got a testimony of Catholicism, I've arranged to join their Church, and I am certain that they are your Church, but hey, I'd really like confirmation that being a Baptist is the right faith" do you think the First Vision would have happened?

As to your polygamy example, I would say neither is more likely to receive an answer from God.  Not because they've studied things out in their mind - that's a requirement and exactly what they are supposed to do.  Just as Joseph studied the various faiths.
But they are unlikely to receive an answer because they aren't really asking the question- they've both already made up their minds and are convinced they are right about polygamy.
The scripture is clear:
 

• James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
  6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

Being sure you already know the answer you probably aren't seeking much wisdom.  Recognizing that you DON'T already know the answer to the question you have been pondering and studying is the first step to getting revelation.

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

The issue is asking God about something when you've already made up your mind based on man's evidences.
You aren't going to get that answer.

If Joseph had walked into the sacred grove and said "Hey, I've got a testimony of Catholicism, I've arranged to join their Church, and I am certain that they are your Church, but hey, I'd really like confirmation that being a Baptist is the right faith" do you think the First Vision would have happened?

 

Wasn't Paul already set in opposition to "the Church".  But he apparently had a vision.  I don't think your view matches scripture.

 

1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

As to your polygamy example, I would say neither is more likely to receive an answer from God.  Not because they've studied things out in their mind - that's a requirement and exactly what they are supposed to do.  Just as Joseph studied the various faiths.
But they are unlikely to receive an answer because they aren't really asking the question- they've both already made up their minds and are convinced they are right about polygamy.

The polygamy example was meant to suggest both had asked the question at one time and have decided as per asking God and getting an answer. 

1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

 

The scripture is clear:
 

• James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
  6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

Being sure you already know the answer you probably aren't seeking much wisdom.  Recognizing that you DON'T already know the answer to the question you have been pondering and studying is the first step to getting revelation.

I barely know anything at all.  I'm open enough to learn.

[Ahab]

17 minutes ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

I agree with stem.  At times we are all fools.  That's the purpose of life.  To give us the opportunity to learn and grow and put away our foolish sins and attitudes.

I agree too. I just like to see stem say things like that while including himself.

[JLHPROF]

9 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Wasn't Paul already set in opposition to "the Church".  But he apparently had a vision.  I don't think your view matches scripture.

Not the same circumstance as this discussion refers to.

Ouagadougou stated "the overwhelming lack of DNA, archeological and linguistic to support the BoM as being historical scripture -- and after much prayer, personal study and "studying it out in my mind" -- I have come to the conclusion that it is a fiction and never happened."
Then he stated " I have since prayed, fasted and asked for a confirmation that it actually happened, but haven't received an answer."

Do you really think he was going to get a confirmation when his mind was already made up?
I sincerely doubt that Paul had studied, prayed, and fasted to know if Christianity was true and receiving no answer decided that it was ok to hold the cloaks of those stoning Christians.
In Paul's situation we are talking of someone who hadn't asked for wisdom getting a kick in the butt to get him started.
His asking happened after - spending 3 days without food or drink (a full fast). 
 

Quote

The polygamy example was meant to suggest both had asked the question at one time and have decided as per asking God and getting an answer.

Different issue.
And I would again argue that if both asked with their minds already made up that what they received as likely to be a confirmation bias as a revelation.
Yes, the scriptures say that we study things out and ask for confirmation.  That is correct procedure.
But we ask because we don't know for sure.  If we are convinced we already know for sure then our asking is not open as you stated, we aren't really looking for wisdom.   And no answer should be expected.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

Its certainly not a foolproof system, and we're all fools at different times and in different ways. 

 It depends on how you define "fool".  If by fool you mean the hard/cold hearted natural man who seeks only his own will, then you are right, it is not foolproof.  In fact it is specifically designed to keep fools blind.  It only works as we seek to know the Lords will and to do it. 

Edited March 31, 2017 by pogi

[Ouagadougou]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

So basically as of now you have no testimony from God, either way, and your opinion of the Book of Mormon is what you have concluded in your own mind.

The "study it out in your mind" part that our Lord was talking about basically means to really think long and hard on an issue, exploring multiple possibilities and scenarios AS you talk about things with our Father and he leads you in understanding the issue. He'll give you a "stupor of thought" when you have the wrong idea about something, and you should then continue to TRY to understand the issue until he assures you that you are then getting the right idea. And you should continue that process until you get HIS assurance on the issue, and you understand what HE has told you.

So get back at it and stop just leaning on your own understanding without his assurance.

This has been a long process and I've given the BoM a great deal of thought and reflection (Fasted, prayed, etc. and still nothing).  You can try to turn the table and blame me for lack of faith or attempt on my part, but I've given the BoM a chance and didn't come to th same conclusion as you and others.  

[Ahab]

2 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

This has been a long process and I've given the BoM a great deal of thought and reflection (Fasted, prayed, etc. and still nothing).  You can try to turn the table and blame me for lack of faith or attempt on my part, but I've given the BoM a chance and didn't come to th same conclusion as you and others.  

Yes, okay, I will blame you 

[Ouagadougou]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

If you are looking for evidences and historical proof, why would God give you a confirmation of historicity.  You have shown him a trust in man's understanding.
I am not questioning your testimony, but I am questioning your choices for seeking answers.
Just how important is scientific and archaeological evidence and theory for you in determining truth?  Should God be giving you answers when you have already decided that they are the correct source to find what is true?
In other words, if you already accept the "evidence" as being unassailable can you honestly say you feel you "lack wisdom" and need to "ask of God"?
 

God is not going to contradict a made up mind, as I highlighted in your post.
1. You accepted all the scientific and anthropological evidences as true and concluded there is no evidence of historicity.
2. You then prayed and fasted for God to confirm that it actually was historical.
3. You remain convinced of your previously decided belief.

Are you really surprised that #2 didn't work given #1?

 

I've been very open with regard to the BoM over the last several years.  I've done a lot of praying and still wasn't able to receive a definitive answer.  I feel that it's nothing more than a fiction...  

[JLHPROF]

5 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

This has been a long process and I've given the BoM a great deal of thought and reflection (Fasted, prayed, etc. and still nothing).  You can try to turn the table and blame me for lack of faith or attempt on my part, but I've given the BoM a chance and didn't come to th same conclusion as you and others.

The issue isn't your faith in God.
It's your overabundance of faith in man.

Quote

I've been very open with regard to the BoM over the last several years.  I've done a lot of praying and still wasn't able to receive a definitive answer.  I feel that it's nothing more than a fiction... 

Again, you are unlikely to receive a definitive answer on historicity from God when you have already decided the answer man gave makes historicity impossible.

Edited March 31, 2017 by JLHPROF

[Ahab]

Just now, JLHPROF said:

The issue isn't your faith in God.
It's your overabundance of faith in man.

So yes in the end it is his fault.

[Ouagadougou]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

To clarify, you received confirmation that it is holy scripture but the spirit never manifested whether it was historical or not, is that accurate?

So your belief that the book is fiction is not based on any spiritual confirmation or manifestation. Correct?

 

I felt that the BoM was scripture and never questioned its historicity until after my mission.  I exercised faith that it was true and felt that I received confirmation that it was inspired scripture.  

My belief that the BoM is fiction is based both my own spiritual and logical understanding.  I've attempted to go through the steps (as the church asks) and didn't receive a sure answer.  At this point, faith alone cannot account for the numerous problems/inconsistencies that are in the BoM IMO. 

[stemelbow]

58 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Not the same circumstance as this discussion refers to.

Ouagadougou stated "the overwhelming lack of DNA, archeological and linguistic to support the BoM as being historical scripture -- and after much prayer, personal study and "studying it out in my mind" -- I have come to the conclusion that it is a fiction and never happened."
Then he stated " I have since prayed, fasted and asked for a confirmation that it actually happened, but haven't received an answer."

that's fine.  But you had indicated that we couldn't have our mind made up and God change our mind. He won't work that way. Sure he can and it appears will.   

58 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

 

Do you really think he was going to get a confirmation when his mind was already made up?

Why not?  it has happened.  It'll happen again.  God works in mysterious ways, Prof. 

58 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I sincerely doubt that Paul had studied, prayed, and fasted to know if Christianity was true and receiving no answer decided that it was ok to hold the cloaks of those stoning Christians.
In Paul's situation we are talking of someone who hadn't asked for wisdom getting a kick in the butt to get him started.
His asking happened after - spending 3 days without food or drink (a full fast). 

It hardly matters what you doubt.  What matters is God will and can indeed tell us the opposite of what we want or think. 

58 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

 

Different issue.
And I would again argue that if both asked with their minds already made up that what they received as likely to be a confirmation bias as a revelation.
Yes, the scriptures say that we study things out and ask for confirmation.  That is correct procedure.
But we ask because we don't know for sure.  If we are convinced we already know for sure then our asking is not open as you stated, we aren't really looking for wisdom.   And no answer should be expected.

I disagree.  I'll guess we can leave it at that. 

[pogi]

6 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

I felt that the BoM was scripture and never questioned its historicity until after my mission.  I exercised faith that it was true and felt that I received confirmation that it was inspired scripture.  

My belief that the BoM is fiction is based both my own spiritual and logical understanding.  I've attempted to go through the steps (as the church asks) and didn't receive a sure answer.  At this point, faith alone cannot account for the numerous problems/inconsistencies that are in the BoM IMO. 

Just to clarify a little further, do you still believe it is scripture (non-historical scripture), of has the historicity issue caused you to doubt your spiritual confirmation?

[Ouagadougou]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Yes, okay, I will blame you 

And why man I to blame?  Why does it have to be a problem with the individual?  

[Ouagadougou]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Just to clarify a little further, do you still believe it is scripture (non-historical scripture), of has the historicity issue caused you to doubt your spiritual confirmation?

I do not believe it is scripture or historical...I think it is fiction that has some inspiring verses, but it's not an ancient text in any way.  

[Ouagadougou]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

The issue isn't your faith in God.
It's your overabundance of faith in man.

Again, you are unlikely to receive a definitive answer on historicity from God when you have already decided the answer man gave makes historicity impossible.

I'm glad you understand how I feel so well and understand my personal faith in God.  The interesting thing is, having fully admitted to myself and others that I think the BoM is pure fiction, I am even happier spiritually and emotionally than I have ever been in my life.   

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Its certainly not a foolproof system, and we're all fools at different times and in different ways. 

The fool is only a fool in the eyes of others.

This has nothing to do with majority rule.   There is no possible objective answer or proof either way of who the fool even is.

Trying to answer the question of whether the feelings in our hearts are out there or in here is absurd.

If God talks in the forest, will it make a sound?

Maybe if we leave a recording device and a camera in the forest we will catch God speaking or creating something?   THAT is about the caliber of the question in the OP.

The kingdom of heaven is within.  If one cannot tell the difference between red and green, I cannot help you

If you cannot tell the difference between God speaking and your feelings, I cannot help you.  Maybe it's the aliens putting thoughts into your head.

Does anyone really think this OP question can be answered?  If so, I am not the one to ask.

God is the Ideal Being inside of us.  If your Ideal Being speaks to you, listen.  The kingdom of heaven is within.  If you think it and it is from your Ideal Being and Ideal Self why would you doubt that that is the best thing for you??

What do you think it means that God is a Human and is within you?

If you can't tell that from indigestion, I am not the person to ask.  

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, Ouagadougou said:

And why man I to blame?  

Because you made up your own mind, coming to your own conclusions. You did that, so you are responsible for that. 

1 minute ago, Ouagadougou said:

Why does it have to be a problem with the individual? 

You'd rather blame somebody else for  you coming to your own conclusions? 

Why blame someone else? You did it.

 

[Ouagadougou]

1 minute ago, Ahab said:

Because you made up your own mind, coming to your own conclusions. You did that, so you are responsible for that. 

You'd rather blame somebody else for  you coming to your own conclusions? 

Why blame someone else? You did it.

 

So because your faith and belief is at such a higher level you were able to receive a different answer than me, right? Of course I came to this conclusion on my own, but it did put in the time and effort (as the church wants) to receive an answer.  No answer for me...and I've never been happier in my life.  

[Ahab]

2 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

So because your faith and belief is at such a higher level you were able to receive a different answer than me, right?

No, that's not why. I'm the kind of guy who isn't sure about what I should think until God tells me what he thinks. Until then I just try to come up with possibilities and reasons to explain different things that I can think of, but not being sure what to believe. 

What you described is not about getting an answer. By your own admission, God didn't tell you what you should think. You just came to your own conclusions.

2 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

Of course I came to this conclusion on my own, but it did put in the time and effort (as the church wants) to receive an answer.  No answer for me...and I've never been happier in my life.  

I prefer to get info from God, but you can make your own choice and it is then up to you to live with it.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Ouagadougou said:

I'm glad you understand how I feel so well and understand my personal faith in God.  The interesting thing is, having fully admitted to myself and others that I think the BoM is pure fiction, I am even happier spiritually and emotionally than I have ever been in my life.

To be fair, I was only responding to statements you made.  I claim no deeper insights than that.
My statements were concerning your ability to receive spiritual confirmation of historicity having already rejected historicity prior to asking.

You are welcome to believe the Book of Mormon (or the Book of Abraham) are fictional works.  But we are not required to agree with your conclusion, and I for one do not.
But as long as you follow their teachings I think your belief in their historicity doesn't really matter.  Not until the idea that they are fictional causes a doubt in their teachings.

Edited March 31, 2017 by JLHPROF

[clarkgoble]

9 hours ago, snowflake said:

What if I got a spiritual conformation that agreed with the Bible but contradicted  the (latter day) prophets? How would I determine if it was from God or from somewhere else?

Can't speak for anyone else but while I think the brethren get the benefit of doubt and the burden of proof is on the person thinking them wrong, I have no trouble with the idea of the spirit noting a mistake they've made. 

[Stargazer]

On 3/31/2017 at 7:43 AM, Ouagadougou said:

I was raised/born into the church and have read the BoM numerous times.  I prayed about it (as stated in the end if Moroni) and felt that it was a powerful book and true...but never received a confirmation that it was 100% true/historical.  I had faith and hope that it was true and even served a mission based on my belief/faith.    IMO, given the overwhelming lack of DNA, archeological and linguistic to support the BoM as being historical scripture -- and after much prayer, personal study and "studying it out in my mind" -- I have come to the conclusion that it is a fiction and never happened.  I'm actually more confident now that the BoM is fiction than when I believed it was a historical scripture. I have since prayed, fasted and asked for a confirmation that it actually happened, but haven't received an answer.  Now, some might try to attack me and state that I never had a testimony in the first place of the BoM, however, I did have one, but was never 100% sure it was true; I had a faith and hope that it was true and even excercised that faith by going on a mission.  I think the BoM has some powerful verses and some inspiring words, but there is no way it actually happened, IMO.  Now, the BoA IMO (and as many might already know my opinion on it) is a complete fraud.  I gave the BoM a chance and asked God with a sincere heart...but still no 100% confirmation.  Part of me really wants the BoM to be historical scripture...but at this point...there is 0% evidence IMO to support it ever happening.  And for me personally, I can't go off of blind faith and allow my faith to outweigh all of the evidence that suggests the BoM is nothing more than a fiction and 19th century text.  This is going against what most of my family and friends would like, but I think truth is the most important thing.  I believe the the truth regarding the BoM is that it's fiction and never happened.    

I respect your conclusions, even if I disagree with them.  And I also respect the devotion you had in acting upon your faith in the past -- and I am glad that you continue to act in accordance with what you believe to be right and true.  I would never say that you never had a testimony in the first place -- it is highly presumptuous of anyone to say that about another.  How can they know?  I do know, however, that it is possible to lose something that one once had, and then even deny that one had it.  

That being said, I think that you are attempting to "look beyond the mark" in respect of worldly evidence that some have said "proves" the Book of Mormon is false.  Well, as you know, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.  As far as the DNA evidence, I've looked on both sides and find that the so-called "slam dunk" evidence against a small group from the Middle East coming to the Americas is not "slam dunk" at all.  I see evidence in the book that it is, in fact, historical.  Obviously, you differ with this.  So be it.  As for me, I don't believe myself to be operating according to "blind faith".  I seek evidence for that what I believe to be true (worldly or divine), but I recognize that the nature of the evidence differs according to the nature of that which is to be evidenced. Archaeology has something to say for the Book of Mormon, just as it does for the Bible, but in neither case can archaeology confirm or deny anything with respect to divinity.  And so I don't look to archaeology for confirmation of it.

I feel that, regardless of whether the Book of Mormon is historical, or even inspired by the Divine, one can still be a better person by following its precepts.  And I am aware that there are some members who believe that the book is divine, even if it doesn't describe real events, and so use it for teaching and as a guide and comfort.  

I'm curious about what you feel concerning the divinity of the Bible?  Historicity is generally not at issue there, since at least some of it has been confirmed by archaeology.  Of course, historicity can say nothing about divinity -- and so far as I know, no miracle, as reported there, has been confirmed by archaeology.