Ahab Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 12 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: Unless they studied mental illnesses... No, that doesn't teach anything but what people without a mental illness think of people who have one. It's like trying to understand someone else from the outside without knowing what it is like on the inside. Our Lord knows what it feels like to suffer from a mental illness because he experienced every form of suffering there is, and while he can share his knowledge of that with someone else, otherwise nobody else can know that without having that mental illness themselves. Kinda like how nobody can know how it feels to receive inspiration from God just by trying to understand somebody else's experience. From the outside trying to look in. The only way you can know is to receive inspiration from God for yourself.
JLHPROF Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 4 hours ago, hope_for_things said: This is an amazing quote, and sounds almost exactly like the David Whitmer recollection about what Joseph Smith said when they were unsuccessful selling the BoM copyright in Canada. http://en.fairmormon.org/Primary_sources/David_Whitmer/An_Address_to_All_Believers_in_Christ Do you happen to know the source of that Boyd K. Packer talk, they didn't site the source on the FAIR link you provided. I would really like to read that talk now. 5 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: I don't know the source of the Boyd Packer quote. I can look to see if I can find the source FAIR used. Both Whitmer and Packer's quotes seem to be based on: There are three independent principles--the spirit of God, the spirit of man, and the spirit of the devil. All men have power to resist the devil. They who have tabernacles have power over those who have not. 1
why me Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 16 hours ago, Ouagadougou said: Since so much in the church is based on the spirit and testimony, I found the statement below to be interesting, especially as it pertains to spiritual confirmations: "Simply receiving a warm feeling about a speech or article is not enough to call it revelation or a confirmation of the spirit. One would need to properly study the issue, get an idea of what is correct, then ask for confirmation. The witness has to be consistent with other revelation and can be compared with others witness of similar events. In the case of Elder Dunn's stories, we felt good when we heard them. Boyd Packer pointed out that feelings and “spiritual” events can come from three sources: 1) your own feelings, 2) Satan, or 3) the Holy Ghost. You must use methods to properly confirm which is occurring in a particular event." http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_church_leadership/Criticisms/Paul_H._Dunn's_baseball_and_war_stories What are the methods to differentiate between your own feelings and the spirit? Is it possible that prophets (or church leaders) mistake their own understanding/feelings for the spirit or revelation? Haven't church leaders described the spirit as just "warm feelings?" Finally, how do those with different types of mental illnesses understanding the spirit with what that perceive to be true in their mind? In other words, can somebody with a serious mental illness (demetia, schizophrenia, Alzheimer's, etc.) fully differentiate the spirit with what they perceive in his/her reality? https://www.lds.org/friend/2004/05/friend-to-friend-a-warm-feeling?lang=eng What is a testimony? I don't think that a testimony depends on feelings but on a spiritual experience when praying about the gospel. This spiritual experience is much more powerful than a feeling. For example, when some of the women prayed about plural marriage, they received a spiritual experience that it were true. And then they consented. Critics tend to lessen the spiritual feeling but they have a much more difficult time to lessen the experience. 1
Calm Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 4 hours ago, hope_for_things said: This is an amazing quote, and sounds almost exactly like the David Whitmer recollection about what Joseph Smith said when they were unsuccessful selling the BoM copyright in Canada. http://en.fairmormon.org/Primary_sources/David_Whitmer/An_Address_to_All_Believers_in_Christ Do you happen to know the source of that Boyd K. Packer talk, they didn't site the source on the FAIR link you provided. I would really like to read that talk now. Except it is not a quote from BKP, but a paraphrase, which is unfortunate. If I remember, I will ask that be footnoted. I would be curious if he says the feelings are the same or if he is simply saying we get feelings, but if we pay attention to them we will realize they are different (as an example of no religious context, infatuation vs. committed love).
Calm Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 (edited) It may be this talk: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1989/10/revelation-in-a-changing-world?lang=eng "All inspiration does not come from God. (See D&C 46:7.) The evil one has the power to tap into those channels of revelation and send conflicting signals which can mislead and confuse us. There are promptings from evil sources which are so carefully counterfeited as to deceive even the very elect. (See Matt. 24:24.) Nevertheless, we can learn to discern these spirits. Even with every member having the right to revelation, the Church can be maintained as a house of order." Edited March 30, 2017 by Calm
Calm Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 (edited) Or it could be this one: "We Can Be Deceived Be ever on guard lest you be deceived by inspiration from an unworthy source. You can be given false spiritual messages. There are counterfeit spirits just as there are counterfeit angels. (See Moro. 7:17.) Be careful lest you be deceived, for the devil may come disguised as an angel of light. The spiritual part of us and the emotional part of us are so closely linked that is possible to mistake an emotional impulse for something spiritual. We occasionally find people who receive what they assume to be spiritual promptings from God, when those promptings are either centered in the emotions or are from the adversary." https://www.lds.org/ensign/1983/01/the-candle-of-the-lord?lang=eng Edited March 30, 2017 by Calm
clarkgoble Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 While I understand why pedagogically missionaries are instructed to use the term "feelings" when teaching to feel and recognize the spirit, in discussions like this one I suspect it's more misleading than helpful. We are after all not merely talking about feelings. 4
snowflake Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 8 minutes ago, Calm said: Or it could be this one: "We Can Be Deceived Be ever on guard lest you be deceived by inspiration from an unworthy source. You can be given false spiritual messages. There are counterfeit spirits just as there are counterfeit angels. (See Moro. 7:17.) Be careful lest you be deceived, for the devil may come disguised as an angel of light. The spiritual part of us and the emotional part of us are so closely linked that is possible to mistake an emotional impulse for something spiritual. We occasionally find people who receive what they assume to be spiritual promptings from God, when those promptings are either centered in the emotions or are from the adversary." https://www.lds.org/ensign/1983/01/the-candle-of-the-lord?lang=eng God wants us to be happy, so any feelings I receive that make me feel good, or comforted I know are from him. If I receive bad feelings I know they are from the dark side.......thoughts?
clarkgoble Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 (edited) 18 minutes ago, snowflake said: God wants us to be happy, so any feelings I receive that make me feel good, or comforted I know are from him. If I receive bad feelings I know they are from the dark side.......thoughts? Frequently the Holy Ghost's action towards an incorrect choice is a feeling of stupor or a bad feeling. So I don't think you can make that distinction. That's why I get a little frustrated when it's simplified as good feelings. It's good feelings frequently when testifying of good things. But bad feelings are often a warning from God that there's bad content about. Edited March 30, 2017 by clarkgoble 3
Duncan Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 1 hour ago, Ouagadougou said: I think this brings up an interesting question with regard to what "study it out implies." For me personally, this means applying logic, and scientific evidence (up to a certain point) because we live a world bound by natural laws. I don't want to go down a rabbit hole, but my own "studying out in my mind" and reading/research of the BoM has allowed me to come to the conclusion that the BoM is not historical and is just a fiction; others might come to a different conclusion. The church even states that you can only understand such things like the BoM through the spirit. Each person is different in terms of how much logical/scientific evidence he/she needs to believe or hope for something. all very interesting but where does Elder Paul Dunn fit into all this?
JLHPROF Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 5 minutes ago, Duncan said: all very interesting but where does Elder Paul Dunn fit into all this? What do you mean? He told feel good stories that were lies but made people feel good, gave them warm fuzzies like a telephone commercial in the 90s. What does that have to do with revelation by the spirit? Are people saying the spirit testified of the truthfulness of his baseball and war stories?
Duncan Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 Just now, JLHPROF said: What do you mean? He told feel good stories that were lies but made people feel good, gave them warm fuzzies like a telephone commercial in the 90s. What does that have to do with revelation by the spirit? Are people saying the spirit testified of the truthfulness of his baseball and war stories? That's what I wonder what Ogopogo or whatever his/her name is wondering , did the spirit testify to the truthfulness of the Church, BOM etc via these stories which we found out were not true. So I replied stories can appeal to people's emotions but that doesn't mean the spirit was present 1
JLHPROF Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 19 minutes ago, Duncan said: That's what I wonder what Ogopogo or whatever his/her name is wondering , did the spirit testify to the truthfulness of the Church, BOM etc via these stories which we found out were not true. So I replied stories can appeal to people's emotions but that doesn't mean the spirit was present Ogopogo. You Canadian you... 1
hope_for_things Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 2 hours ago, Ouagadougou said: I enjoyed your reply and I would add that I think the human mind itself is inspired by a supreme being/God because of our ability to comprehend language(s). IMO, our language abilities clearly separate us from the rest of animals. Animals can communicate up to a point; however, they can never truly acquire language like we do. "We need to dig deeper to understand to what we owe our unique success—what separates us from other animals in the domains of language, mental time travel, theory of mind, intelligence, culture, and morality. In each domain, various nonhuman species have competences, but human ability is special in some respects—and they have much in common. " http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2014/03/the_science_of_what_separates_us_from_other_animals_human_imagination_and.html "mounting evidence indicates that, in contrast to Darwin's theory of a continuity of mind between humans and other species, a profound gap separates our intellect from the animal kind." http://www.livescience.com/33376-humans-other-animals-distinguishing-mental-abilities.html I agree that our feelings are influenced by the body, mind and stimuli/environment we come in contact with via language. Interesting, thanks for the response. I'm curious where your ideas came from that because humans are more advanced intellectually and specifically with our language ability, that this is proof of there being a God? I've never heard this concept expressed from a Mormon perspective, so I'm just curious what inspired you. I'll check out your links. I question the quote about mounting evidence existing that a profound gap separates our intellect from the animal kind, as I've never heard this idea before. If the evidence truly does show this, that would be pretty big news and could change the scientific field of study quite a bit, but like I said, I'm skeptical because this is my first time running across it.
hope_for_things Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 2 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Both Whitmer and Packer's quotes seem to be based on: There are three independent principles--the spirit of God, the spirit of man, and the spirit of the devil. All men have power to resist the devil. They who have tabernacles have power over those who have not. Fascinating how similar those two quotes were, that's why I really want to get a hold of that Packer talk. A lot of people like to downplay the Whitmer quote because they don't like evidence that prophets get things wrong sometimes when it comes to revelation. However, I find it very consistent with my observations of life and my reading of history. I'd love a modern interpretation from Packer to bolster that old Whitmer quote.
hope_for_things Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 2 hours ago, Calm said: Or it could be this one: "We Can Be Deceived Be ever on guard lest you be deceived by inspiration from an unworthy source. You can be given false spiritual messages. There are counterfeit spirits just as there are counterfeit angels. (See Moro. 7:17.) Be careful lest you be deceived, for the devil may come disguised as an angel of light. The spiritual part of us and the emotional part of us are so closely linked that is possible to mistake an emotional impulse for something spiritual. We occasionally find people who receive what they assume to be spiritual promptings from God, when those promptings are either centered in the emotions or are from the adversary." https://www.lds.org/ensign/1983/01/the-candle-of-the-lord?lang=eng Thanks Calm. It could be either of those talks. He doesn't spell it out in a 1 2 3 kind of way like the FAIR post, he does mention elements of all three principles. Fun to re-read that Candle of the Lord talk, that was one my Mission President had us all have a copy of in our Missionary binder, he really loved that talk from a missionary perspective.
Jeanne Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 1 hour ago, Duncan said: all very interesting but where does Elder Paul Dunn fit into all this? This. I was in my teens when Elder Dunn had all those tapes for our firesides..these gave me the spirit..how does this work??
JLHPROF Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 3 minutes ago, Jeanne said: This. I was in my teens when Elder Dunn had all those tapes for our firesides..these gave me the spirit..how does this work?? The actual spirit or the warm fuzzies? 1
pogi Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 2 hours ago, snowflake said: God wants us to be happy, so any feelings I receive that make me feel good, or comforted I know are from him. If I receive bad feelings I know they are from the dark side.......thoughts? Clark made some good points, and it is also too simplistic to say that all good feelings are from God. In fact, the quickest and easiest way to feel good would be to give into the desires of the flesh. Christ's way is simple, but it is not always easy or cheap. With spiritual truths, there is a sense of pureness, wholeness, or holiness accompanied with a desire for righteousness. It is more than a fleeting feeling, but it is an enduring tree which grows/swells within you and bears fruit. It is tender and delicate and requires nourishment and care. It is consistent and reliable; it enlightens the mind and inspires goodness. It broadens our perspective by opening our spiritual eyes and ears by which our heart understands. It is not just a feeling, but there is an understanding which is difficult to utter in words. The counterfeit is often in the form of instant gratification with diminishing rewards and negative consequences over time. 1
clarkgoble Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Jeanne said: This. I was in my teens when Elder Dunn had all those tapes for our firesides..these gave me the spirit..how does this work?? I loved those tapes as a kid, but I honestly don't recall the spirit testifying of Elder Dunn's greatness. His exaggerated stories were kind of beside the point in terms of what the spirit was about. I think this gets to the root of the problem that sometimes what we detect is vague. It's then easy to overextend in our interpretations what the spirit is saying. Much the way (IMO - no offense to those who think different from myself) some people get a testimony of the scriptures and then think that entails their interpretation of what the history of the scriptures is. If our answers are vague that means there's something true, but perhaps we ought be careful assuming everything we're thinking about is true. Further, in my own experience what the spirit often does is encourage more pondering, more meditation, and more careful consideration. But often what we do (and I definitely include myself here) is instead move onto something else rather than try to understand better what the spirit is saying. Edited March 30, 2017 by clarkgoble
Duncan Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 Just now, Jeanne said: This. I was in my teens when Elder Dunn had all those tapes for our firesides..these gave me the spirit..how does this work?? I did too, I think my brother still has some, but as I say I think stories can appeal to our emotions and we get caught up into it, as per my WW1 story but it doesn't always mean the spirit was involved. Another example if someone were to incite a riot and you participated in it I highly doubt the Holy Ghost was involved in that.
Ahab Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 17 minutes ago, Jeanne said: This. I was in my teens when Elder Dunn had all those tapes for our firesides..these gave me the spirit..how does this work?? I get choked up sometimes by romantic stories. Even when they're not true. Because they are good and inspire good feelings to the extent that they do. Lots of things that aren't true are still good. And good is what I like. The gooder the better.
JLHPROF Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Ahab said: I get choked up sometimes by romantic stories. Even when they're not true. Because they are good and inspire good feelings to the extent that they do. Lots of things that aren't true are still good. And good is what I like. The gooder the better. You just know this is a revelation. Can't you feel all the warm fuzzies? Edited March 30, 2017 by JLHPROF
Jeanne Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 22 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: The actual spirit or the warm fuzzies? Goosebumps on the inside. I know the spirit. I know what you guys are talking about..not just feelings..a burning.
Ahab Posted March 30, 2017 Posted March 30, 2017 3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: You just know this is a revelation. Can't you feel all the warm fuzzies? Inspirational. Yes. Good thoughts. I almost cried when I got the bills.
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