Gray Posted April 3, 2017 Posted April 3, 2017 Just now, snowflake said: Why do you consider Daniel non-historical or is that your opinion? If we could identify any place, person or manuscript from the BOM It would give it some credibility but we are left with not much more than a "feeling". Are you being intellectually honest with yourself when you compare the two? We have an entire Jewish culture that has survived over 2500 years with thousands of pieces of archeological evidence supporting the Bible. Are you disregarding tangible evidence for a book as "non-historical"? The evidence absolutely supports the book. Now I agree evidence does not prove the book or the stories in it as true, but it supports the timeline, culture, locations etc. The consensus of scholarship is that Daniel is pseudonymous and written hundreds of years after the time it was purported to come from. Doesn't that sound like the Book of Mormon to you? Or if you're differentiating between historical fiction and fiction, the first chapter of the Book of Mormon is set in Jerusalem, a real place. Does that make 1 Nephi scripture in your book? In a thousand years the Book of Mormon will also be ancient. Will it be authentic scripture then? 1
snowflake Posted April 3, 2017 Posted April 3, 2017 13 minutes ago, Ahab said: THAT was Satan telling you that!!! Do it again but ignore that guy the next time. Praying to know truth is not a valid test! Why do you think there are so many LDS sects out there that all claim to have the truth?
Ahab Posted April 3, 2017 Posted April 3, 2017 1 minute ago, Gray said: There is no way for you to be certain that you've become better at telling the difference, because there is nothing external to your internal experience for comparison. My own experiences tell me that as I put their input into action. Good input leads to good results, and vice versa.
pogi Posted April 3, 2017 Posted April 3, 2017 19 minutes ago, snowflake said: When I was praying for wisdom regarding the BOM it was impressed upon my conscience that it was a work of fiction, a counterfeit. There was no audible voice but an overwhelming impression that the Bible was God's word alone and not to trust the BOM. Fair enough, thanks for sharing.
Gray Posted April 3, 2017 Posted April 3, 2017 Just now, Ahab said: My own experiences tell me that as I put their input into action. Good input leads to good results, and vice versa. Sure, but someone could get a revelation that the Catholic church is the only true church, and get good results that way too. So revelation can't tell you what the only universally true church is. Revelation isn't nearly that precise.
Ahab Posted April 3, 2017 Posted April 3, 2017 1 minute ago, snowflake said: Praying to know truth is not a valid test! Why do you think there are so many LDS sects out there that all claim to have the truth? Truth can be either good or evil so I focus more on looking for what is good rather than what is evil, although knowing what is good also helps me to know what is evil because evil is the opposite of what is good.
Ahab Posted April 3, 2017 Posted April 3, 2017 1 minute ago, Gray said: Sure, but someone could get a revelation that the Catholic church is the only true church, and get good results that way too. So revelation can't tell you what the only universally true church is. Revelation isn't nearly that precise. The term "only true church" doesn't make much sense to me, since I equate what is true to what is real in reality. Looking in a phone book I can find lots of churches that really exist, each with their own unique differences. I'm more concerned with knowing which church has the same priesthood keys that Jesus Christ has, and he has told me.
Gray Posted April 3, 2017 Posted April 3, 2017 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Ahab said: The term "only true church" doesn't make much sense to me, since I equate what is true to what is real in reality. Looking in a phone book I can find lots of churches that really exist, each with their own unique differences. I'm more concerned with knowing which church has the same priesthood keys that Jesus Christ has, and he has told me. Sure, and he'll tell someone else something totally different. Like I said, it's a clock face with no numbers. I'm not sure why people think they can take a totally subjective experience like personal revelation and think it applies to non-subjective questions. Revelation will tell you how you feel about something. It's like meditation. If you could get universal answers from it no one would ever need to study for math exams. Edited April 3, 2017 by Gray
pogi Posted April 3, 2017 Posted April 3, 2017 I was willing to take you at your word, and I wasn't going to question your intention because that is never helpful...but then you went and wrote this: 1 minute ago, snowflake said: Praying to know truth is not a valid test! Interesting! You had me going there for a minute that you actually believed that you received revelation from God regarding the truth (that it is fiction) of the Book of Mormon when you said this: Quote When I was praying for wisdom regarding the BOM it was impressed upon my conscience that it was a work of fiction, a counterfeit. There was no audible voice but an overwhelming impression that the Bible was God's word alone and not to trust the BOM. If praying for truth is not a valid test, then you don't really believe that God told you that the Book of Mormon is not true do you? You are loosing credibility here. 1
Ahab Posted April 3, 2017 Posted April 3, 2017 Just now, Gray said: Sure, and he'll tell someone else something totally different. Like I said, it's a clock face with no numbers. When I want to know what someone else thinks I ask them. Works with God the same wayv Just now, Gray said: I'm not sure why people think they can't take a totally subjective experience like personal revelation and think it applies to universal questions. Revelation will tell you how you feel about something. It's like meditation. If you could get universal answers from it no one would ever need to study for math exams. There is no such thing as a universal answer, unless you're talking about every answer, because universally there is no agreement. On anything.
snowflake Posted April 3, 2017 Posted April 3, 2017 14 minutes ago, pogi said: I was willing to take you at your word, and I wasn't going to question your intention because that is never helpful...but then you went and wrote this: Interesting! You had me going there for a minute that you actually believed that you received revelation from God regarding the truth (that it is fiction) of the Book of Mormon when you said this: If praying for truth is not a valid test, then you don't really believe that God told you that the Book of Mormon is not true do you? You are loosing credibility here. I was praying for wisdom, not to know truth, and yes that was what was impressed upon me.
bluebell Posted April 3, 2017 Posted April 3, 2017 Just now, snowflake said: I was praying for wisdom, not to know truth, and yes that was what was impressed upon me. How are wisdom and truth different? I don't mean definition wise, but in application? How is wanting wisdom different than wanting to know God's truths? 2
Ahab Posted April 3, 2017 Posted April 3, 2017 2 minutes ago, bluebell said: How are wisdom and truth different? I don't mean definition wise, but in application? How is wanting wisdom different than wanting to know God's truths? I hope you're asking with a sincere intent to know what he thinks while having enough wisdom already to know the difference between what he thinks and what God thinks.
pogi Posted April 3, 2017 Posted April 3, 2017 4 minutes ago, snowflake said: I was praying for wisdom, not to know truth, and yes that was what was impressed upon me. So you have been given wisdom about the Book of Mormon, but you haven't been given the truth? And that makes sense to you? 3
Ouagadougou Posted April 3, 2017 Author Posted April 3, 2017 15 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: I see no evidence that you actually understand the give and take nature of real conversations. You pretty much ignore substantive discussion. As evidence of that, it took you around 5 posts before you realized your significant mistake on the non-Muhlestein video, and it appears that you learned nothing from that encounter. Wouldn't it be much easier to simply pay attention to and respond to real discussion, instead of deliberately ignoring it? Look around on this board. People have actual discussions pro and con all the time. You could do likewise. Just look at what HappyJackWagon said to you with regard to your comments toward me (before the video misunderstanding): "Nothing you said previously matters because you say things like this. You are assigning motivation of ill intent and dishonesty to what has been a challenging discussion. When you fail to recognize the value of a discussion partner, the discussion cannot continue. In other words, you've killed the discussion by making harsh accusations."
snowflake Posted April 3, 2017 Posted April 3, 2017 47 minutes ago, bluebell said: How are wisdom and truth different? I don't mean definition wise, but in application? How is wanting wisdom different than wanting to know God's truths? The James scripture talks about God giving wisdom: 5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. I prayed for wisdom regarding the BOM and received my answer. Not sure I can answer how wanting wisdom is different than wanting to know God's truths.
bluebell Posted April 3, 2017 Posted April 3, 2017 2 minutes ago, snowflake said: The James scripture talks about God giving wisdom: 5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. I prayed for wisdom regarding the BOM and received my answer. Not sure I can answer how wanting wisdom is different than wanting to know God's truths. Have you read the Book of Mormon? 1
Gray Posted April 3, 2017 Posted April 3, 2017 1 hour ago, Ahab said: When I want to know what someone else thinks I ask them. Works with God the same wayv It seems to work until you check the answers that other people are getting. Maybe the problem is that God doesn't speak to us like a person does. 1 hour ago, Ahab said: There is no such thing as a universal answer, unless you're talking about every answer, because universally there is no agreement. On anything. Then God can't tell you what is universally the only church with priesthood authority.
snowflake Posted April 3, 2017 Posted April 3, 2017 1 hour ago, Gray said: The consensus of scholarship is that Daniel is pseudonymous and written hundreds of years after the time it was purported to come from. Doesn't that sound like the Book of Mormon to you? Or if you're differentiating between historical fiction and fiction, the first chapter of the Book of Mormon is set in Jerusalem, a real place. Does that make 1 Nephi scripture in your book? In a thousand years the Book of Mormon will also be ancient. Will it be authentic scripture then? What is the consensus of scholarship on the BOM (non LDS sources)?
Gray Posted April 3, 2017 Posted April 3, 2017 2 minutes ago, snowflake said: What is the consensus of scholarship on the BOM (non LDS sources)? That it's a 19th century text.
snowflake Posted April 3, 2017 Posted April 3, 2017 6 minutes ago, bluebell said: Have you read the Book of Mormon? Several times from cover to cover.
snowflake Posted April 3, 2017 Posted April 3, 2017 2 minutes ago, Gray said: That it's a 19th century text. Is there any legitimate books of scripture you would consider inspired by God?
Ahab Posted April 3, 2017 Posted April 3, 2017 6 minutes ago, Gray said: It seems to work until you check the answers that other people are getting. Maybe the problem is that God doesn't speak to us like a person does. God says to me what God says to me and other people telling me something different doesn't change that. They are only telling me what they say. 6 minutes ago, Gray said: Then God can't tell you what is universally the only church with priesthood authority. Why do you use the word "universally" ? God can and has told me what is the only church with his priesthood authority. What thought are you trying to introduce with the word "universally"?
Gray Posted April 3, 2017 Posted April 3, 2017 Just now, snowflake said: Is there any legitimate books of scripture you would consider inspired by God? Yes, the Bible, Book of Mormon, POGP, D&C, Quran, Vedas, etc. None of them are history texts, of course.
Gray Posted April 3, 2017 Posted April 3, 2017 Just now, Ahab said: God says to me what God says to me and other people telling me something different doesn't change that. They are only telling me what they say. Illustrating the problem with this method. Just now, Ahab said: Why do you use the word "universally" ? God can and has told me what is the only church with his priesthood authority. What thought are you trying to introduce with the word "universally"? I use the word universally because "only church with his priesthood" is attempting to set a universal fact down. You're not praying to know what church is right for you (correct use of revelation), you're praying to know what church is right period (incorrect use).
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