Confirmation through the spirit or feelings?

[Ahab]

10 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Goosebumps on the inside.  I know the spirit.  I know what you guys are talking about..not just feelings..a burning.

The kind I get when I think of how much our Savior loves us?  Or when I know our Father is answering my prayers?  Or how much my wife loves me and wants to spend her forever with me?  Unspeakable feelings from experiencing things that are good?

Edited March 30, 2017 by Ahab

[Ouagadougou]

2 hours ago, Duncan said:

all very interesting but where does Elder Paul Dunn fit into all this?

He was telling fiction that inspired people...

[Ouagadougou]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

Interesting, thanks for the response.  I'm curious where your ideas came from that because humans are more advanced intellectually and specifically with our language ability, that this is proof of there being a God?  I've never heard this concept expressed from a Mormon perspective, so I'm just curious what inspired you. 

I'll check out your links.   I question the quote about mounting evidence existing that a profound gap separates our intellect from the animal kind, as I've never heard this idea before.  If the evidence truly does show this, that would be pretty big news and could change the scientific field of study quite a bit, but like I said, I'm skeptical because this is my first time running across it.  

This isn't from a Mormon perspective at all.  I am not your typical Mormon and don't accept the church's truth claims (but that is a different discussion).  What I am saying (and IMO) is that there is something divine about the human mind and our ability to acquire languages.  Other animals can communicate, but they can't fully acquire language like we can.  There is a large gap between us and other animals in terms of language capabilities.  Our ability to reason and generate abstract thought, mental symbols, combination of ideas and create new words/ideas, IMO, is inspired by some higher power.  

[Duncan]

Just now, Ouagadougou said:

He was telling fiction that inspired people...

fiction yes, inspired people to do what? 

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, Duncan said:

fiction yes, inspired people to do what? 

Feel good. He was a good storyteller who inspired good and positive ideas even though many of the stories he told were fiction, at least in some part.

[Ahab]

38 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

Our ability to reason and generate abstract thought, mental symbols, combination of ideas and create new words/ideas, IMO, is inspired by some higher power.  

There is no higher power than the power our kind of being possesses.

Not all of us are perfectly good and perfectly capable of doing every good thing that our kind of being can do, but the best we are capable of is due to the power of our kind of being. No other kind of being is better than us.  We are as good or actually even better than any [other] kind of being can be.

Edited March 31, 2017 by Ahab

[Stargazer]

23 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

Is it possible that prophets (or church leaders) mistake their own understanding/feelings for the spirit or revelation? 

To which hope_for_things responded

10 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Its 100% the case, there is no way to separate our own feelings from divine stimuli, its not possible.  

To which I say, if it's not possible, we are quite simply lost, and might as well believe nothing, for nothing can be believed.   A very hopeless situation indeed.  Isn't your screen name "hope_for_things"?  What then are the things you hope for?

Ouagadougou, you said that you arrived at your decision that the Book of Mormon is fiction by studying it out in your mind, as if that is all that DC 9 admonishes us to do.  And you've decided it was fiction, and I guess this is how you arrive at the conclusion that the truth claims of the Church are false.  But in this I heard nothing in about taking the matter to God, as He said "ask[ing] me if it be true".  Or perhaps you did, and simply don't mention it?  If you asked God to confirm your conclusion that the Book of Mormon was fiction, and God agreed with you (if so, how was it made manifest?), can you verify this for us? 

If it be the case that God told you the Book of Mormon is fiction/false, fine, but I reserve the right to believe you have gotten the answer from something other than God.  Perhaps the FSM.

James 1:5 is frequently cited, where it says:

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

But the following two verses are less frequently cited, where James makes clear that there are conditions:

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

What appears to be the case with many is that they rely upon their own reason and rationality, as if by seeing the world they think they can see everything.

I've posted some of my personal revelatory experiences here before, and let me bore you with a little more along that line.  And note that I didn't get these by doubting I would get anything.  I got them because I had faith that the Lord would guide me -- and acted upon it.

I get concerned sometimes when writing about this subject, because I tend to repeat things I’ve written before, and worry, first of all, that I’ll bore someone (“Oh, HIM again, nevermind!”), and secondly, that in telling a personal story that I might overstep the bounds the Spirit has set on what I tell and how much I tell about it.

But fools rush in, and all that.

I’ve read how some of you talk about how the perception of the Spirit is unreliable, and how “warm fuzzies” can be confused with the Spirit, and I understand how it might be seen as so.  On the other hand, in my experience, the Spirit can be marvelously distinctive.

I once felt very strongly that old “stupor of thought” after having studied out a matter, making a decision as to what action I was going to take, and then praying if it be right.  So, when it came to my evening prayer, as it came down to asking for a confirmation of my decision I started to tell the Lord what I had decided.  And couldn’t finish.  It was as if I were struck dumb, and though I could clearly see in my mind what I wanted to say, I couldn’t think of the words, much less actually say them.  I was perplexed, and tried to form the words and get them out for about 5 seconds, but finally I realized that the Lord was telling me what my answer was.  Of course, it was “NO.”  Once I realized this, I found that I could form words in my mind once more, and simply thanked him and hung up the phone, as it were.  I went the other way in the matter, and all was well.

As for the “burning in the bosom”, it is definitely NOT “warm fuzzies”.  In fact, it is so far removed from “warm fuzzies” that it isn’t even in the same ballpark.  I once had such a marvelous experience with this that I find it very hard to describe.  It was pretty much a full-body sensation from head to foot, accompanied by a wonderful feeling of inner peace.  It was a confirmation of a life decision I had tentatively made, the fulfillment of which has been the greatest experience of my later life.  For those of you who have not ever experienced such a thing, I am sad for you.  I'm reasonably certain that the intensity of it varies with the importance of the matter at hand, so perhaps you might not have felt all of what I felt, if ever you have received this.

I think there’s a key to all this that some of you may not understand.  And as I’ve already said, that key is faith.  If you kneel down to ask God about something, but don't have enough faith to believe you're going to get an answer, how can the answer be revealed to you?  If you're casual about it, and don't really intend to act upon what you might learn, how can God in His own good conscience reveal the answer to you (and thereby help you contribute to your own destruction by treating it lightly)?  The angel appearing to Laman and Lemuel could have been a blessing to them, but they received the message with resentment, and bad will.  As a result, the message of revelation was a condemnation to them instead of a blessing.  It was done to save the mission they were on, or else I'm sure God wouldn't have done it that way, and thus helped bring L&L into condemnation, but how could He have recovered the situation without such an intervention?  Go ahead and Monday morning quarterback the matter if you want ("Well, God should have done it THIS way...").
 

 

Edited March 31, 2017 by Stargazer
format change

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Feel good. He was a good storyteller who inspired good and positive ideas even though many of the stories he told were fiction, at least in some part.

My favorite story (which might even have been true), was that when he was in WW2 in the Pacific, one night his infantry unit was standing in foxholes in the rain, and the water was up to their armpits.  Suddenly, something heavy hit his chest and dropped into the water.  Panicking, thinking this had been a grenade, he frantically reached underwater to try to grab it toss it out of his foxhole before it killed him.  He found it, but it turned out to be a big frog that had hopped into the foxhole.  Thinking swiftly, he tossed the frog into one of his buddies' foxholes and shouted "Fire the hole!"  Apparently it was a great practical joke, as the two men in the foxhole jumped out as fast as they could while Paul Dunn laughed himself silly.

If it wasn't true, then it should have been! 

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

This isn't from a Mormon perspective at all.  I am not your typical Mormon and don't accept the church's truth claims (but that is a different discussion).  What I am saying (and IMO) is that there is something divine about the human mind and our ability to acquire languages.  Other animals can communicate, but they can't fully acquire language like we can.  There is a large gap between us and other animals in terms of language capabilities.  Our ability to reason and generate abstract thought, mental symbols, combination of ideas and create new words/ideas, IMO, is inspired by some higher power.  

Sounds interesting I just haven't heard that particular reasoning before, thanks for sharing.  

[snowflake]

12 hours ago, pogi said:

Clark made some good points, and it is also too simplistic to say that all good feelings are from God.  In fact, the quickest and easiest way to feel good would be to give into the desires of the flesh.  Christ's way is simple, but it is not always easy or cheap.   With spiritual truths, there is a sense of pureness, wholeness, or holiness accompanied with a desire for righteousness.  It is more than a fleeting feeling, but it is an enduring tree which grows/swells within you and bears fruit.  It is tender and delicate and requires nourishment and care.  It is consistent and reliable; it enlightens the mind and inspires goodness.  It broadens our perspective by opening our spiritual eyes and ears by which our heart understands.  It is not just a feeling, but there is an understanding which is difficult to utter in words.  The counterfeit is often in the form of instant gratification with diminishing rewards and negative consequences over time.

What if I got a spiritual conformation that agreed with the Bible but contradicted  the (latter day) prophets? How would I determine if it was from God or from somewhere else?

[snowflake]

9 hours ago, Stargazer said:

To which hope_for_things responded

To which I say, if it's not possible, we are quite simply lost, and might as well believe nothing, for nothing can be believed.   A very hopeless situation indeed.  Isn't your screen name "hope_for_things"?  What then are the things you hope for?

Ouagadougou, you said that you arrived at your decision that the Book of Mormon is fiction by studying it out in your mind, as if that is all that DC 9 admonishes us to do.  And you've decided it was fiction, and I guess this is how you arrive at the conclusion that the truth claims of the Church are false.  But in this I heard nothing in about taking the matter to God, as He said "ask[ing] me if it be true".  Or perhaps you did, and simply don't mention it?  If you asked God to confirm your conclusion that the Book of Mormon was fiction, and God agreed with you (if so, how was it made manifest?), can you verify this for us? 

If it be the case that God told you the Book of Mormon is fiction/false, fine, but I reserve the right to believe you have gotten the answer from something other than God.  Perhaps the FSM.

James 1:5 is frequently cited, where it says:

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

But the following two verses are less frequently cited, where James makes clear that there are conditions:

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

What appears to be the case with many is that they rely upon their own reason and rationality, as if by seeing the world they think they can see everything.

I've posted some of my personal revelatory experiences here before, and let me bore you with a little more along that line.  And note that I didn't get these by doubting I would get anything.  I got them because I had faith that the Lord would guide me -- and acted upon it.

I get concerned sometimes when writing about this subject, because I tend to repeat things I’ve written before, and worry, first of all, that I’ll bore someone (“Oh, HIM again, nevermind!”), and secondly, that in telling a personal story that I might overstep the bounds the Spirit has set on what I tell and how much I tell about it.

But fools rush in, and all that.

I’ve read how some of you talk about how the perception of the Spirit is unreliable, and how “warm fuzzies” can be confused with the Spirit, and I understand how it might be seen as so.  On the other hand, in my experience, the Spirit can be marvelously distinctive.

I once felt very strongly that old “stupor of thought” after having studied out a matter, making a decision as to what action I was going to take, and then praying if it be right.  So, when it came to my evening prayer, as it came down to asking for a confirmation of my decision I started to tell the Lord what I had decided.  And couldn’t finish.  It was as if I were struck dumb, and though I could clearly see in my mind what I wanted to say, I couldn’t think of the words, much less actually say them.  I was perplexed, and tried to form the words and get them out for about 5 seconds, but finally I realized that the Lord was telling me what my answer was.  Of course, it was “NO.”  Once I realized this, I found that I could form words in my mind once more, and simply thanked him and hung up the phone, as it were.  I went the other way in the matter, and all was well.

As for the “burning in the bosom”, it is definitely NOT “warm fuzzies”.  In fact, it is so far removed from “warm fuzzies” that it isn’t even in the same ballpark.  I once had such a marvelous experience with this that I find it very hard to describe.  It was pretty much a full-body sensation from head to foot, accompanied by a wonderful feeling of inner peace.  It was a confirmation of a life decision I had tentatively made, the fulfillment of which has been the greatest experience of my later life.  For those of you who have not ever experienced such a thing, I am sad for you.  I'm reasonably certain that the intensity of it varies with the importance of the matter at hand, so perhaps you might not have felt all of what I felt, if ever you have received this.

I think there’s a key to all this that some of you may not understand.  And as I’ve already said, that key is faith.  If you kneel down to ask God about something, but don't have enough faith to believe you're going to get an answer, how can the answer be revealed to you?  If you're casual about it, and don't really intend to act upon what you might learn, how can God in His own good conscience reveal the answer to you (and thereby help you contribute to your own destruction by treating it lightly)?  The angel appearing to Laman and Lemuel could have been a blessing to them, but they received the message with resentment, and bad will.  As a result, the message of revelation was a condemnation to them instead of a blessing.  It was done to save the mission they were on, or else I'm sure God wouldn't have done it that way, and thus helped bring L&L into condemnation, but how could He have recovered the situation without such an intervention?  Go ahead and Monday morning quarterback the matter if you want ("Well, God should have done it THIS way...").
 

 

Stargazer,

So what you are basically claiming is that you  prayed harder than Ouagadougou so your confirmation is superior to his confirmation.  A testimony war, you "know" yours is right so all of us who have received the confirmation that the BOM is a counterfeit gospel are wrong. Everyone has personal spiritual experiences the question is how do you truly know if they are from God or not? We both cannot be right. Either the BOM is fiction or not. The Holy ghost told you it was correct, O and I have been told it is fiction. I submit that to truly test the spirits they must agree with God's word the Holy Bible.  If they agree then that would be a confirmation of truth, if they disagree it should be discarded as incorrect. 

 

[Kenngo1969]

Sing it with me now:

Quote

Feeluns!

Nuthin' more than ... feeluns!

Tryin' to ferget mah ... feeluns of the Spirit!

Feeluns!

Whoa, whoa, whoa ...

Feeluns!

Whoa, whoa, whoa ...

Feeluns!

 

Frankly, I think the opening poster may have a point, to a point.  I doubt I would have undertaken the educational and attempted/intended/hoped-for career path that I have undertaken to this point without receiving what I felt at the time (and still do, misadventures and detours notwithstanding) was inspiration from the Spirit to do so.

I've written many times of undergoing two failed operations and waiting on an operating table to be put to sleep for a third operation, all within a span of 27 months, and receiving an unmistakeable impression that, ample reason for caution (if not for pessimism)  notwithstanding, when I awoke after this operation, it would be to the best possible outcome; and then of undergoing two more operations, the three later operations occurring within a span of about seventeen months, with similar results.

Why did the first two operations fail, setting me back physically, in some ways, permanently?  Why couldn't they have been successful?  I dunno.  Why was I more-or-less impelled along a certain career path, only to come full circle, now having had a job for about the last 20 months that is similar to the one I had for more than two years before I (after a couple of other detours) finally decided to try to escape by biting the bullet and applying to law school?  I dunno.  

It's abundantly clear to me ... since my last full-time job before starting law school, the job I got when I took a leave of absence from law school (because I still wasn't sure about biting that bullet), and the job I have now have all involved answering phones, all day, every day (well, with respect to the job I have now, that's mostly true: as much consternation as I might experience talking to customers, there's another aspect of my job that involves mere transcription rather than two-way communication, and I like that even less) ... that, sure, I could have avoided law school altogether (as long as I didn't mind answering phones for the rest of my life.  )

All of this, after having received what I perceived as fairly clear (not unmistakeable, but fairly clear) direction to pursue a law degree (not "direction" in a "lack of free will/agency sense, but that's another discussion for another day); then, attending the temple and doing initiatories for the first time since I had received my own endowment nearly 20 years previously and after my application to the Bar had been denied, and having a particular passage (which talks about wielding a certain instrument in defense of certain values; if you have a temple recommend and you wonder what I'm talking about, go do initiatories and then PM me) strike me with unusual force; then, shortly before quitting my other most recent full time job in order to escape the wrath of She Who Could Not Possibly Be Pleased Yet Still Must Be Obeyed, attending an endowment session and sitting in a waiting room on a hot day after perspiring on the short walk into the temple with the air conditioning running full blast and feeling a distinct warm feeling (no, it wasn't about whether I should quit the job or not ...)

The only things that I keep coming back to are: (1) "Ken, don't forget how you felt on an operating table on January 24 and February 14, 1984, and on June 7, 1985, respectively"; and (2) Whether I am ever licensed or not, whether I ever practice law (or do something else besides answer phones) or not, I would rather have a law degree than not have one.

I don't know why things didn't work out differently on October 23, 1981 and on June 23, 1982: essentially, I was the same person then as I was before the later three operations.  I don't know why it seems I'm destined to answer phones, law degree notwithstanding.  Aren't things supposed to work out better when one follows what he perceives to be the Spirit?  Isn't the end of the story supposed to be, "And it came to pass that he followed the prompting of the Holy Spirit, and he lived happily ever after"?  Isn't following the Spirit supposed to lead to less protracted stories with tidier endings?  Well ...

Apparently not.  Ken, don't forget how you felt on January 24 and February 14, 1984, and on June 7, 1985.

Edited March 31, 2017 by Kenngo1969

[Ahab]

2 hours ago, snowflake said:

What if I got a spiritual conformation that agreed with the Bible but contradicted  the (latter day) prophets? How would I determine if it was from God or from somewhere else?

Tell me all of the specifics and then I'll tell you how right or wrong I think you are.

I mean, you are asking ME. Right?

[pogi]

3 hours ago, snowflake said:

What if I got a spiritual conformation that agreed with the Bible but contradicted  the (latter day) prophets? How would I determine if it was from God or from somewhere else?

Do you mean your interpretation of the Bible and your interpretation of Latter Day prophets?

Do you have a personal experience or example to share, or is this purely hypothetical?  

As a general rule however, I would encourage anyone after counseling with the Lord through prayer in all humility, with a pure desire to do his will and an open heart and mind, that they follow the light that is given them to the best of their ability. Do what you truly believe is God's will for you.  Follow your conscience, because ultimately you are accountable before God and not man or religion.  Always keep in mind that we can only see through a glass darkly in this life, that our personal truths may evolve over time as we are obedient to the light we have been given.  Even Latter Day Saints can disagree with modern prophets.  In fact, we are counseled by modern day prophets to not just take their word for things, but that we need to seek confirmation through personal revelation and prayer. 

Hearing and seeing with our spiritual eyes and ears is something that we develop through humility and trial of the word in prayerful diligence.   Follow your conscience every time, without wavering, and your ability to discern spiritual truths will evolve and the voice of the Lord will become more clear to you.  Don't expect to be perfect at first.  We all make mistakes and can confuse our own emotion and bias with the spirit.  Do your best to listen and humbly accept what is offered, and the Lord will guide you and enlighten your heart and mind.  It is also important to remain free from uncleanliness or our ability to discern will be clouded.  If you fall off track (which we all do), don't stay off track.  Be quick to repent and align yourself with the spirit of Christ again. 

Edited March 31, 2017 by pogi

[Ouagadougou]

12 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Ouagadougou, you said that you arrived at your decision that the Book of Mormon is fiction by studying it out in your mind, as if that is all that DC 9 admonishes us to do.  And you've decided it was fiction, and I guess this is how you arrive at the conclusion that the truth claims of the Church are false.  But in this I heard nothing in about taking the matter to God, as He said "ask[ing] me if it be true".  Or perhaps you did, and simply don't mention it?  If you asked God to confirm your conclusion that the Book of Mormon was fiction, and God agreed with you (if so, how was it made manifest?), can you verify this for us? 

I was raised/born into the church and have read the BoM numerous times.  I prayed about it (as stated in the end if Moroni) and felt that it was a powerful book and true...but never received a confirmation that it was 100% true/historical.  I had faith and hope that it was true and even served a mission based on my belief/faith.    IMO, given the overwhelming lack of DNA, archeological and linguistic to support the BoM as being historical scripture -- and after much prayer, personal study and "studying it out in my mind" -- I have come to the conclusion that it is a fiction and never happened.  I'm actually more confident now that the BoM is fiction than when I believed it was a historical scripture. I have since prayed, fasted and asked for a confirmation that it actually happened, but haven't received an answer.  Now, some might try to attack me and state that I never had a testimony in the first place of the BoM, however, I did have one, but was never 100% sure it was true; I had a faith and hope that it was true and even excercised that faith by going on a mission.  I think the BoM has some powerful verses and some inspiring words, but there is no way it actually happened, IMO.  Now, the BoA IMO (and as many might already know my opinion on it) is a complete fraud.  I gave the BoM a chance and asked God with a sincere heart...but still no 100% confirmation.  Part of me really wants the BoM to be historical scripture...but at this point...there is 0% evidence IMO to support it ever happening.  And for me personally, I can't go off of blind faith and allow my faith to outweigh all of the evidence that suggests the BoM is nothing more than a fiction and 19th century text.  This is going against what most of my family and friends would like, but I think truth is the most important thing.  I believe the the truth regarding the BoM is that it's fiction and never happened.    

Edited March 31, 2017 by Ouagadougou

[stemelbow]

the subtle influence of the spirit, if that's what we are intent on calling it, leads us in all sorts of directions.  Elder Holland told us sometimes the spirit leads us down a wrong path so we can learn that it was the wrong path.  HIs son tells us:  "If we had started on the right road, we might have driven for 30 minutes or so, become uneasy with the unfamiliar surroundings, and been tempted to turn back. If we had done that, we would have discovered the dead-end so late that it would have been too dark to find our way back in totally unfamiliar territory"

With this kind of stuff, though, we can explain God's plan on anything.  "well sure I was inspired to murder my kids.  But just as I got them ready to stab 'em I was held back for some reason and the spirit whispered to me that God just wanted to see if I'd do it".  Oh wait, hitting a little close to home perhaps.  "The spirit told me to punch him in the face because he said something unsavory about my grandma.  But now I know I was inspired to do that because I learned violence is bad much quicker if I didn't do that.  If I didnt' do it, I'd still be wondering if violence is bad or not."

In my mind, we're all inspired to head all over the place.  I'd even say it's important to go with that inspiration on an individual basis.  But I wouldn't call that directing God leading us down the one right path.  In terms of establishing doctrine it works similarly.  We feel good about a certain idea, teaching or whatever and we run with it.  Any question that arises from that teaching, we just say we already know the answer.  Mostly because its easier than not.  That seems to be what got us the priesthood ban, treatment of gays and the like.  We're really such a frail people when it comes to truth.  By not being able to see much at all, we're just playing around and guessing. 

 

[pogi]

11 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

I was raised/born into the church and have read the BoM numerous times.  I prayed about it (as stated in the end if Moroni) and felt that it was a powerful book and true...but never received a confirmation that it was 100% true/historical.  

To clarify, you received confirmation that it is holy scripture but the spirit never manifested whether it was historical or not, is that accurate?

14 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

I have since prayed, fasted and asked for a confirmation that it actually happened, but haven't received an answer.  

So your belief that the book is fiction is not based on any spiritual confirmation or manifestation. Correct?

 

[Ahab]

10 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

I was raised/born into the church and have read the BoM numerous times.  I prayed about it (as stated in the end if Moroni) and felt that it was a powerful book and true...but never received a confirmation that it was 100% true/historical.  I had faith and hope that it was true and even served a mission based on my belief/faith.    IMO, given the overwhelming lack of DNA, archeological and linguistic to support the BoM as being historical scripture -- and after much prayer, personal study and "studying it out in my mind" -- I have come to the conclusion that it is a fiction and never happened.  I'm actually more confident now that the BoM is fiction than when I believed it was a historical scripture. I have since prayed, fasted and asked for a confirmation that it actually happened, but haven't received an answer.  Now, some might try to attack me and state that I never had a testimony in the first place of the BoM, however, I did have one, but was never 100% sure it was true; I had a faith and hope that it was true and even excercised that faith by going on a mission.  I think the BoM has some powerful verses and some inspiring words, but there is no way it actually happened, IMO.  Now, the BoA IMO (and as many might already know my opinion on it) is a complete fraud.  I gave the BoM a chance and asked God with a sincere heart...but still no 100% confirmation.  Part of me really wants the BoM to be historical scripture...but at this point...there is 0% evidence IMO to support it ever happening.  And for me personally, I can't go off of blind faith and allow my faith to outweigh all of the evidence that suggests the BoM is nothing more than a fiction and 19th century text.  This is going against what most of my family and friends would like, but I think truth is the most important thing.  I believe the the truth regarding the BoM is that it's fiction and never happened.    

So basically as of now you have no testimony from God, either way, and your opinion of the Book of Mormon is what you have concluded in your own mind.

The "study it out in your mind" part that our Lord was talking about basically means to really think long and hard on an issue, exploring multiple possibilities and scenarios AS you talk about things with our Father and he leads you in understanding the issue. He'll give you a "stupor of thought" when you have the wrong idea about something, and you should then continue to TRY to understand the issue until he assures you that you are then getting the right idea. And you should continue that process until you get HIS assurance on the issue, and you understand what HE has told you.

So get back at it and stop just leaning on your own understanding without his assurance.

[pogi]

18 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

We're really such a frail people when it comes to truth.  By not being able to see much at all, we're just playing around and guessing. 

I agree with the bold part.  No doubt about it.  There are so many human qualities which make us frail to the truth.  How many people did Christ teach in his life time?  He taught thousands at a time, yet only a small percentage were able to hear with their spiritual ears and understand.  

I would not call Alma 32 and Moroni 10 "just playing around and guessing" however.  

[JLHPROF]

52 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

I was raised/born into the church and have read the BoM numerous times.  I prayed about it (as stated in the end if Moroni) and felt that it was a powerful book and true...but never received a confirmation that it was 100% true/historical.  I had faith and hope that it was true and even served a mission based on my belief/faith.    IMO, given the overwhelming lack of DNA, archeological and linguistic to support the BoM as being historical scripture -- and after much prayer, personal study and "studying it out in my mind" -- I have come to the conclusion that it is a fiction and never happened.  I'm actually more confident now that the BoM is fiction than when I believed it was a historical scripture. I have since prayed, fasted and asked for a confirmation that it actually happened, but haven't received an answer.  Now, some might try to attack me and state that I never had a testimony in the first place of the BoM, however, I did have one, but was never 100% sure it was true; I had a faith and hope that it was true and even excercised that faith by going on a mission.  I think the BoM has some powerful verses and some inspiring words, but there is no way it actually happened, IMO.  Now, the BoA IMO (and as many might already know my opinion on it) is a complete fraud.  I gave the BoM a chance and asked God with a sincere heart...but still no 100% confirmation.  Part of me really wants the BoM to be historical scripture...but at this point...there is 0% evidence IMO to support it ever happening.  And for me personally, I can't go off of blind faith and allow my faith to outweigh all of the evidence that suggests the BoM is nothing more than a fiction and 19th century text.

If you are looking for evidences and historical proof, why would God give you a confirmation of historicity.  You have shown him a trust in man's understanding.
I am not questioning your testimony, but I am questioning your choices for seeking answers.
Just how important is scientific and archaeological evidence and theory for you in determining truth?  Should God be giving you answers when you have already decided that they are the correct source to find what is true?
In other words, if you already accept the "evidence" as being unassailable can you honestly say you feel you "lack wisdom" and need to "ask of God"?
 

God is not going to contradict a made up mind, as I highlighted in your post.
1. You accepted all the scientific and anthropological evidences as true and concluded there is no evidence of historicity.
2. You then prayed and fasted for God to confirm that it actually was historical.
3. You remain convinced of your previously decided belief.

Are you really surprised that #2 didn't work given #1?

 

Edited March 31, 2017 by JLHPROF

[mfbukowski]

Nevermind.  

Edited March 31, 2017 by mfbukowski

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

This discussion cannot possibly change anyone's beliefs about what is happening in their own bodies.

Should I post this or not?  Will it make a difference?  No, but what the heck.  

You might be surprised, sometimes.

People often allow other people's beliefs and thoughts and feelings to influence their own beliefs and thoughts and feelings.

 

[stemelbow]

59 minutes ago, pogi said:

I agree with the bold part.  No doubt about it.  There are so many human qualities which make us frail to the truth.  How many people did Christ teach in his life time?  He taught thousands at a time, yet only a small percentage were able to hear with their spiritual ears and understand.  

I would not call Alma 32 and Moroni 10 "just playing around and guessing" however.  

Its certainly not a foolproof system, and we're all fools at different times and in different ways. 

[Ahab]

2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Its certainly not a foolproof system, and we're all fools at different times and in different ways. 

I prefer it when you speak for yourself like this 

[stemelbow]

58 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

If you are looking for evidences and historical proof, why would God give you a confirmation of historicity.  You have shown him a trust in man's understanding.
I am not questioning your testimony, but I am questioning your choices for seeking answers.
Just how important is scientific and archaeological evidence and theory for you in determining truth?  Should God be giving you answers when you have already decided that they are the correct source to find what is true?
In other words, if you already accept the "evidence" as being unassailable can you honestly say you feel you "lack wisdom" and need to "ask of God"?
 

God is not going to contradict a made up mind, as I highlighted in your post.
1. You accepted all the scientific and anthropological evidences as true and concluded there is no evidence of historicity.
2. You then prayed and fasted for God to confirm that it actually was historical.
3. You remain convinced of your previously decided belief.

Are you really surprised that #2 didn't work given #1?

 

Take polygamy for an example.  one could decide as BY and others did that polygamy was more godly than monogamy.  One might even think that polygamy is essential for exaltation, as per words of past prophets.  This one, one might suggest would claim to be listening to God over man.  But really it's man's message that comes to him.  Now contrast this with another.  Let's say this one is adamantly opposed to polygamy.  That this one has decided it's a horrific system that was never allowed or commanded of God.  That it was man who made up the notion that it is godly and good.  And largely his decision to see it that way is based on studies and research.  Is one more reliant upon another man than another?  Is it not true that God can teach and expound to an individual through other people? 

With that said, is it more trusting of God to think the world is 6,000 years old than to think the genesis story is myth?