Mormonism, the original prosperity gospel?

[Storm Rider]

57 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I thought you were unfairly judging prosperity gospel preachers too, so go figure.  It's not like the LDS leaders have a following quite the size of Joel olstein.  But I'm guessing he gives some to the poor in different ways too.  One  need not a rolls Royce or live in mansions to be considered prosperous.  

I don't think I would consider Olsteen part of the prosperity theology movement and nor would he (he does not).  When I think of preachers in this category I think of the preachers cited in this article.  You are the first person I have ever tried to defend their practices.  If you place Olstein in their category then I think we are discussing two completely different sets of preachers. 

Edited March 14, 2017 by Storm Rider

[stemelbow]

3 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

I don't think I would consider Olstein part of the prosperity theology movement and nor would he (he does not).  When I think of preachers in this category I think of the preachers cited in this article.  You are the first person I have ever tried to defend their practices.  If you place Olstein in their category then I think we are discussing two completely different sets of preachers. 

Ok but your link just lumped olsteen in with 'em to be clear.  So I'm not sure what you're saying 

[Gray]

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

Mosiah 2 doesn't say the blessings are material prosperity though. It's also odd you'd appeal to Mosiah 2 since that speech is one of the clearest ones in the text for not seeking riches. Also the whole point of that verse is that we're actually indebted to God and that none of us is ultimately worth much - but are of the dust. The exact opposite of the prosperity gospel.

Then after basically giving a hellfire and brimstone preaching to the people he warns about humility and focusing on helping the poor in chapter 4. The very idea of the prosperity gospel that we merit what we have is denied.

The whole thing is a warning to the rich that seeking for riches is bad and we should be imparting to others what we have.

Almost all of the book of Mosiah is a similar warning once it shifts to talking about the bad guy of the book, Noah, who is in contrast to Benjamin. The literary emphasis is that contrast between the king who didn't seek for riches and who's focus was on others and the evil king who was focused primarily on riches.

The whole emphasis of the Book of Mormon is against riches. "Seek not after riches nor the vain things of this world; for behold, you cannot carry them with you." (Alma 39:14) Now I'd be the first to admit some members don't listen to this warning, but I bet if you asked the typical seminary student they'd have a pretty similar view. This is really emphasized in lessons.

 

I would say the message is that God will reward you with riches if you are righteous, not that you should seek riches directly. Isn't that prosperity gospel? 

From the same chapter:

 22 And behold, all that he requires of you is to keep his commandments; and he has promised you that if ye would keep his commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth vary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do keep his commandments he doth bless you and prosper you.

 

Edit: That is not to say that the BOM is not quick to point that we shouldn't withhold from the poor, reasoning that they somehow deserve to be poor. In my experience you get very funny looks in church when you try to quote that passage, maybe because the "obey yourself rich" material jibes with people's political views, but much of King Benjamin does not. :-/

Edited March 14, 2017 by Gray

[pogi]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

The link he left showed a number of them.

the wording in the BoM is "if they were faithful in keeping the commandments of God that he would prosper them in the land".  It's a common theme for sure.

I think the attitude often is found among members as a result.  my ward is divided pretty distinctly in rich verses poor, in a sense.  My wife went to visit teach a sister who is the rich area, and she could not stop talking about their imported carpets and tiles and how blessed they have been for paying tithing.  Yes I think we're talking a kitchen that was redone worth as much as our house, I believe, and the rest of the house decked out with autos that also cost more than our house.  Meanwhile my wife was pegged as a project recently in part because of our poor status (we're not bad off at all).  A couple of sisters came over and kept reiterating how sad her life was.  She was like, "these ladies have their heads in the clouds." 

I do see some of that, but I personally mostly see the opposite mindset where I live.  I started thinking about this idea after a Sunday School lesson last week where it seemed like everybody was commenting on how life is supposed to be a struggle, that trials are a sign of righteousness, etc.  It is like people were saying, "woe is me and my life" and they identified that as a positive or spiritual trait.  It felt like people were comparing trials to see who was more righteous.  I left feeling conflicted as I don't identify with that mentality at all.  Compared to most in the US, I am fairly poor.  But, compared to most in the world, I am rich beyond belief and am always careful to acknowledge the Lord's hand in my blessings.  And I do recognize the material comforts that I enjoy, as meager as they may be, as blessings from God. 

I don't feel that because we all have struggles and trials in life, that "life is supposed to be a struggle".  That seems contrary to the gospel that I know and love. Struggle is not the purpose of life - to be bogged down in the grind of hardship.   Happiness is the ultimate purpose in life, and struggles/hardships (aka opportunities) are simply a lesson in happiness.  I think that people unfortunately trap themselves in the "woe is me" mentality and perpetuate the grind of hardship through such thinking because they wear it as a sort of mantle.

[Storm Rider]

25 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Ok but your link just lumped olsteen in with 'em to be clear.  So I'm not sure what you're saying 

Quoting from Wikipedia:  

• "On October 14, 2007, 60 Minutes ran a twelve-minute segment on Osteen, titled "Joel Osteen Answers his Critics", during which Reformed theologian Michael Horton told CBS News correspondent Byron Pitts that Osteen's message is heresy. Horton stated that the problem with Osteen's message is that it makes religion about us instead of about God."
• "When asked if he is a prosperity teacher, Osteen responded that if prosperity means God wants people to be blessed and healthy and have good relationships, then he considers himself a prosperity teacher, but if it is about money, he does not. He has specifically stated that he never preaches about money because of the reputation of televangelists."

Yes, Olstein lives in a outlandish size mansion and has a very high net worth, but he has also written over 13 books and sold millions of copies.  Compare him to Creflo Dollar (to quote Wikipedia again): 

• "Dollar is known for his controversial teachings regarding prosperity theology, or the gospel of wealth. He has long been criticized for living a lavish lifestyle; he owns two Rolls-Royces, a private jet, and real estate such as a million-dollar home in Atlanta, a $2.5 million home in Demarest, New Jersey, and a $2.5 million home in Manhattan, which he sold for $3.75 million in 2012."  "As of 2007, the congregation reported having around 30,000 members, and $69 million in revenue (gross cash collections) for 2006."

The difference in the two men is the lifestyle they have and how they got it.  Olstein earned the majority of this wealth through his book sales while Dollar got his wealth through the contributions of his church.  Do you see any difference or am I talking to a stone?

The article I cited did include Olsteen.  I did not link the article because it was 100% perfect information (just because it is in print does not mean it is accurate; I actually read to find supporting documentation).  Olsteen himself says he thinks it is unfair that critics will lump him in with the others, but he continues to go about his business and serving his congregation.  To clarify, I don't know him, don't listen to him, and never met him, but I do think he should not be included with the others such as Dollar.

[thesometimesaint]

I don't believe life should be a struggle. It just is.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Bobbieaware said:

It's an extreme oversimplification to suggest the Book of Mormon advocates for some sort of "prosperity gospel." When one looks upon the messages and warnings of the Book of Mormon holistically, and in full context, it becomes quite clear one of its most critically important messages is the solemn warning that the followers of Christ must never allow themselves to be beguiled and spiritually overthrown by what the Apostle Peter calls "the deceitfulness of riches." The Book of Mormon is filled with such warnings, the following being a just a few among many other Book of Mormon verses with similar admonitions.

Those warnings are very clear indeed.  I would like to point out however, that wealth and riches in and of themselves are not the problem and are in fact blessings.  The problem and warning, is when people seek for riches before they seek for the kingdom of God.  It is about priorities.  The teaching is to keep our eye single to the glory of God.  To seek him first and foremost.  To seek riches is not discouraged in the Book of Mormon, so long as we keep our priorities straight (Jacob 2:19).

When I think of prosperity, I don't limit it to material wealth, but I don't necessarily exclude it either.  I don't think that anyone can argue that prosperity is not taught as a blessing in the Book of Mormon.  I do view Mormonism as a prosperity gospel, not necessarily in the same light as other prosperity gospels because I don't think that material wealth is guaranteed gift for righteousness, but it can be and often is a blessing for those who seek it to do good.  But happiness and prosperity is a promised blessing of righteousness - again, that doesn't always mean material wealth, but it doesn't always exclude it either. 

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, thesometimesaint said:

I don't believe life should be a struggle. It just is.

Some things in life are, but not all things.

Some things in life come easily and naturally.

[pogi]

11 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

I don't believe life should be a struggle. It just is.

 Then so be it. 

I choose a more optimistic perspective in viewing life as an opportunity and not a struggle, and that is how I experience life overall.  I do have struggles, but they do not define my life.

Edited March 14, 2017 by pogi

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

It does not bother me when others attribute their blessings, whatever they may be, to God or to obedience to obeying the commandments.  I personally don't think there is a direct line to any of those things and being wealthy.  Wealth accumlation has some pretty distinct characteristics, which most have little to do with being a man of God.

I think the propering that the people experienced in the Book of Mormon was Peace and prosperity - the peace they experienced enhanced and made possible their anbility to increase their prosperity.  I agree there are similarities between the Church's teachings and the properity gospel taught by other churches, but I still seem them as distinctly different.  I don't know any prospertiy preachers that do not drive around in expensive cars, huge homes, and either have an airplane or are asking their flocks to help them buy one.  I don't see their emphasis on giving to the poor, etc.  

I agree that there are some distinct differences, but I feel that the Book of Mormon and Mormonism in general is the missing link between prosperity gospels and more traditional ascetic Christian theology.  It balances the two quite well, taking the emphasis off of money and putting it on the "love" of money.  It promises and emphasizes prosperity (may or may not include wealth) and happiness as a result of living the commandments of God, and it keeps the emphasis on God's glory and assisting the afflicted with our blessings. 

I love Jacob 2:19 which really emphasis that missing link between the two theologies.  I will post it again for emphasis:

Quote

And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted (Jacob 2:19)

It shows that it is not sinful at all to "seek for riches", but indeed is a blessing if we seek them for the right purposes.  It seems to be human nature to struggle with that balance however, but I have personally been blessed to know several people who I view as a fulfillment of this promise.  They continue to acknowledge and glorify God and bless the lives of those who suffer in inspiring and touching ways.  

[Ahab]

27 minutes ago, pogi said:

 Then so be it. 

I choose a more optimistic perspective in viewing life as an opportunity and not a struggle, and that is how I experience life overall.  I do have struggles, but they do not define my life.

Struggle seems like too strong a word to me, at least for most things in life.  Challenge sounds better to me. Just something I have to work out and on until it gets done. And then there are those things in life that come easily, at least easy to me.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Ahab

[pogi]

6 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Struggle seems like too strong a word to me, at least for most things in life.  Challenge sounds better to me. And then there are those things that come easily, at least to easy to me.

I like that.  "Challenge" seems like a healthier way to look at things.

[Bobbieaware]

57 minutes ago, pogi said:

Those warnings are very clear indeed.  I would like to point out however, that wealth and riches in and of themselves are not the problem and are in fact blessings.  The problem and warning, is when people seek for riches before they seek for the kingdom of God.  It is about priorities.  The teaching is to keep our eye single to the glory of God.  To seek him first and foremost.  To seek riches is not discouraged in the Book of Mormon, so long as we keep our priorities straight (Jacob 2:19).

When I think of prosperity, I don't limit it to material wealth, but I don't necessarily exclude it either.  I don't think that anyone can argue that prosperity is not taught as a blessing in the Book of Mormon.  I do view Mormonism as a prosperity gospel, not necessarily in the same light as other prosperity gospels because I don't think that material wealth is guaranteed gift for righteousness, but it can be and often is a blessing for those who seek it to do good.  But happiness and prosperity is a promised blessing of righteousness - again, that doesn't always mean material wealth, but it doesn't always exclude it either. 

 

 17 Think of your brethren like unto yourselves, and be familiar with all and free with your substance, that they may be rich like unto you.

 18 But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God.

 19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted. (Jacob 2)

 

Edited March 14, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[Jeanne]

When thinking of this..I am reminded of the promises of paying tithing.  As a young girl, I interpreted certain passages on the law of tithing to be like prosperity in the way of "blessings received in huge numbers .not room enough to hold them all..kind of like this.  I had a relative who won a large amount of money in a lawsuit..put his tithing in an envelope and proceeded to tell everyone one what he was giving to the Lord.  Maybe all religions do a dis-service when it comes to teaching pride and humility. 

[CV75]

5 hours ago, pogi said:

Some of you may be familiar with prosperity theology made popular in the 1950's through healing revivals and televangelists.  Many of their ideas arise from the "New Thought" movement which began in the 19th century.  In learning about this theology, I couldn't help but see many parallels in Mormonism.  The first and most glaring parallel I found is in one of the central doctrines that it is God's will for his people to be happy. A list of notable comparisons:

1) Man are that they might have joy.

1) The atonement is interpreted to include the alleviation of not just spiritual but physical sickness.

2) The practice of faith healing.

3) A positive view of the spirit and body, rather than a negative view of the flesh.

4) Emphasis on charity and importance of giving.

5) The idea that God blesses the faithful with prosperity (this is a central theme in the BoM).

6) That true human selfhood is divine.

There are some obvious differences as well, but I did find that some of these ideas have been found in Mormonism long before they were made popular in prosperity gospels and before the "New Thought" movement.

It would be interesting to hear your perspectives on the idea of Mormonism as a type of prosperity gospel.  I think there is a real divide in Mormon interpretation on the idea of prosperity.  I know many personally who are very uncomfortable with the idea and view suffering rather than prosperity as a better indicator of faithfulness.  They view life as something to be endured and lean towards a more ascetic life.  Others view life as something to be enjoyed and lean towards a more abundant life.  What are your thoughts on the subject?  Does God have a preference for us?  Does Mormonism more closely align with modern prosperity theology or traditional Christian ascetic theology?  Or, does Mormonism offer a bridge and balance between suffering and joy, and prosperity and poverty?

Archaically, “prosper” meant to make successful or fortunate (in Latin, to bring, or to bear, in a good way), but not to excess (D&C 59:20). The online 1828 Webster Dictionary: “To favor; to render successful. To be successful; to succeed. To grow or increase; to thrive; to make gain…”

This is certainly a blessing of the gospel: “And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.”

I don’t think any of the teachings emphasize material prosperity as a primary aim of the gospel. “Behold the gold, and the silver, and the silks, and the scarlets, and the fine-twined linen, and the precious clothing, and the harlots, are the desires of this great and abominable church,” the values and principles of which Cain, Gadianton, Korihor, Nehor, Sherem, etc. seem to have subscribed.

I do think authentic material blessings are relative, for God knows what will make one happy in the integration of temporal and spiritual things, and "too much of a good thing" does not come from God or from godly attitudes.

[pogi]

41 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

 

 17 Think of your brethren like unto yourselves, and be familiar with all and free with your substance, that they may be rich like unto you.

 18 But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God.

 19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted. (Jacob 2)

Yep, that is the one.  I can't tell if you are posting this as a rebuttal against me, or in agreement.

It is passages like this that gives balance to the extremes of modern prosperity gospels and traditional ascetic Christian teachings.  Note that these passages do not discourage riches, but in fact seem to encourage them, "that they may be rich like unto you".  The balance that the Book of Mormon gives is in priority - putting God first and foremost in what we seek, and in using our riches to bless the lives of others.  

[Bobbieaware]

40 minutes ago, pogi said:

Yep, that is the one.  I can't tell if you are posting this as a rebuttal against me, or in agreement.

It is passages like this that gives balance to the extremes of modern prosperity gospels and traditional ascetic Christian teachings.  Note that these passages do not discourage riches, but in fact seem to encourage them, "that they may be rich like unto you".  The balance that the Book of Mormon gives is in priority - putting God first and foremost in what we seek, and in using our riches to bless the lives of others.  

It's plainly obvious to me that the state of being wealthy is neither inherently good nor bad. But it is one of those inescapable facts of life that the natural man views material wealth as being more important than spiritual wealth.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[pogi]

18 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

It's plainly obvious to me that the state of being wealthy is neither inherently good nor bad. But it is one of those inescapable facts of life that the natural man views material wealth as being more important than spiritual wealth.

So wealth is never a blessing of the Lord (good)? It does not seem so plainly obvious to me.  I agree about the natural man though. 

[Bobbieaware]

4 minutes ago, pogi said:

So wealth is never a blessing of the Lord (good)? It does not seem so plainly obvious to me.  I agree about the natural man though. 

Money, no matter in what form it might be found, is inanimate and devoid of the power of thought, and for these reasons incapable of doing anything good or evil of its own accord. As an entity that is utterly powerless to act on its own, the potential good or evil the employment of money might accomplish will only be realized by the moral or immoral actions of men.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

I don’t think any of the teachings emphasize material prosperity as a primary aim of the gospel. “Behold the gold, and the silver, and the silks, and the scarlets, and the fine-twined linen, and the precious clothing, and the harlots, are the desires of this great and abominable church,” the values and principles of which Cain, Gadianton, Korihor, Nehor, Sherem, etc. seem to have subscribed.

Why is everyone always blasting my values and principles? It is hurtful.  

[The Nehor]

The best LDS refutation of the Prosperity gospel is in a little-known and rarely quoted parable in the Doctrine and Covenants 38:

 25 And again I say unto you, let every man esteem his brother as himself.

 26 For what man among you having twelve sons, and is no respecter of them, and they serve him obediently, and he saith unto the one: Be thou clothed in robes and sit thou here; and to the other: Be thou clothed in rags and sit thou there—and looketh upon his sons and saith I am just?

 27 Behold, this I have given unto you as a parable, and it is even as I am. I say unto you, be one; and if ye are not one ye are not mine.

Remember this is the Lord speaking. He tells us to esteem our brothers as ourselves. Then he gives the parable of a man who has twelve sons and all served him equally well (so there can be no question of merit) and yet gives some riches and some poverty. Then the Father says he is just for doing so. Then God declares that this is "even as I am". God does this.

Then he commands us to be one. God states that he does not necessarily reward righteousness with wealth. He claims to be just while being unfair with temporal (and possibly other) blessings. Then he commands us to be one. I would submit that the implication is that God created the unfairness and expects us to fix this inequality.

 

The prosperity gospel is laughable and in my experience comes from those ignorant of scripture or those blinded to scripture by a sense of greed. The former are generally Christians seeking to get something earthy out of it with no interest in spiritual things while the latter often imagine that God will give them wealth so they can help others disguising their own avarice from themselves.

Edited March 15, 2017 by The Nehor

[clarkgoble]

5 hours ago, Gray said:

I would say the message is that God will reward you with riches if you are righteous, not that you should seek riches directly. Isn't that prosperity gospel? 

From the same chapter:

 22 And behold, all that he requires of you is to keep his commandments; and he has promised you that if ye would keep his commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth vary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do keep his commandments he doth bless you and prosper you.

Edit: That is not to say that the BOM is not quick to point that we shouldn't withhold from the poor, reasoning that they somehow deserve to be poor. In my experience you get very funny looks in church when you try to quote that passage, maybe because the "obey yourself rich" material jibes with people's political views, but much of King Benjamin does not. :-/

1. Again to repeat once more blessings are not necessarily riches

2. As you yourself just noted it explicitly states they don't deserve to be poor and that all are beggars. i.e. that riches are not due to moral merit.

3. The whole thrust of the sermon by Benjamin is that Benjamin isn't rich and is the same as everyone else. If there were a prosperity gospel wouldn't Benjamin be...properous?

Edited March 15, 2017 by clarkgoble

[Stargazer]

9 hours ago, Gray said:

Good points. The Book of Mormon very clearly teaches a kind of prosperity gospel, and I've encountered the notion many times with church members. I think it's actually a pretty awful idea and manifestly untrue, but you can see the appeal, especially for people living on the margins and hoping for a better life.

To be clear, what I think is awful is the idea that God rewards the faithful with wealth. I don't have an issue with any of the other points you mention.

The plain fact of the matter is this: righteous behavior yields positive results, regardless of what you believe in a theological sense. 

And by righteous behavior, I mean treating people fairly, being honest in your dealings, and working hard to promote your own welfare in a productive occupation or business.  If you do these things then you will prosper economically.  Barring accidents of one sort of another (earthquakes, hurricanes, disease, zombie outbreaks, and so on).

From what I have seen of life it doesn't matter if you are Mormon, Catholic, Atheist, or a Chicago Cubs fan, if you do righteously, prosperity will most likely follow. 

If you want to attribute that prosperity to God's favor, I don't think it matters much.  Six of one, half-dozen of the other.  Since God does command the righteous behavior of which I speak, keeping God's commandments will lead to prosperity.  Even if you're an unbeliever.  It's behavior that counts.

What happens in the Last Judgment is another matter.

[Calm]

"If you do these things then you will prosper economically"

Besides natural disasters, one also has to deal with the corruption of others as well as the timing.  I have seen a number of people do just as you claim is needed, but end up economically worst off because they trusted people, they were powerless to stop corruption, they couldn't get make connections with the people who could make things happen, or above all else, in spite of being generous, smart, honest, hardworking people, they were rotten communicators.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Calm

[Garden Girl]

8 hours ago, Gray said:

I think the idea is expressed in Mosiah 2.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/search?lang=eng&query=prosper&testament=bofm&type=verse

It's a pretty constant running theme - obey God and he will grant you material wealth. 

 

8 hours ago, pogi said:

Agreed.  Most often stated like this: "...and you will prosper in the land".

Hello Gray... I don't agree with your absolute statement that if we obey God we will be granted material wealth... some of the most righteous in our ward struggle materially, but are blessed greatly and prosper in spiritual blessings, peaceful homes, good health, faithful children, etc.  Others prosper and are successful materially because their faith and obedience fosters positive attitudes, cheerful countenances, compassionate hearts, etc which helps them advance in their careers, daily lives, etc.  I guess what I'm trying to say is that "prospering in the land" does not necessarily mean material prosperity... Take me for example... I am not considered wealthy in any way one normally thinks of wealth, but I'm faithful and obedient, and I'm incredibly happy and blessed because in spite of being widowed for 19 years, the Lord has prospered me with inner peace and happiness, a lovely cottage by the sea (no mortgage) just a half-block to the ocean on the beautiful Oregon coast, a temple 2 hrs from me, books, music, my art, etc.  I'm able to be charitable.. have good friends...  I live on a pension and soc. sec., yet I am "rich" in spiritual blessings and comfortable in my life... that is my wealth... that is my prosperity.  And each night as I study my scriptures and say my evening prayers, I express my humble gratitude...

GG