Mormonism, the original prosperity gospel?

[Gray]

17 hours ago, pogi said:

I don't know, those in Seattle seem to be way more blessed than those of us here in SLC.  Christ was not teaching that obedience will not prosper you anymore than the disobedient, he was simply teaching us to love everyone, even our enemies, as he loves everyone.  He was not teaching us to divide our spoils equally among our enemies and our own children.  Nor was he teaching that God rewards us all equally. Obviously God gives better gifts to his children.

The point is that the rain in Seattle doesn't fall just on the righteous or just on the wicked. Rightous behavior doesn't result in more rain or more sun. 

 

17 hours ago, pogi said:

"If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? (Matt 7:11)"

He taught that we will be prospered to where we need not even think about what to wear and eat everyday, but that it will be provided to the obedient who have faith. 

He didn't say anything about deserving good gifts from God. He specifically called his audience "evil"

 

17 hours ago, pogi said:

He did not focus solely on the spiritual.  Not only did he cure spiritual illness and suffering, but he cured physical illness and suffering.  He didn't cure everyone equally, only those who had faith in him. 

3 John 2 says:

I'm not sure what 3 John would have to do with a passage from the gospel of John. They may not have even been the same author. It's uncertain. The John passage is talking about spiritual. To turn it into something about filthy lucre seems more than a little blasphemous, no? 

 

17 hours ago, pogi said:

John seemed to believe that the abundant life Christ spoke of was not necessarily spiritual only.  

Jesus would have believed in and taught from the following scriptures, he frequently taught from Psalms:

Joshua 1:8 tells us, “This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate in it day and night, that you may observe to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success.”

Psalm 1:1-3 says, “Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor stands in the path of sinners, nor sits in the seat of the scornful; But his delight is in the law of the Lord, and in His law, he meditates day and night.  He shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that brings forth its fruit in its season, whose leaf also shall not wither; and whatever he does shall prosper.”

Psalms35:27 tells us the Lord takes, “…pleasure in the prosperity of His servant.”

I seem to remember Peter being freed from prison by an angel.

Yes, prosperity gospel is throughout the old testament, but it seems hard to find in the words or claimed words of Jesus. Jesus was the most righteous of us, but was a homeless wandering preacher who was tortured and murdered. 

[Gray]

13 hours ago, The Nehor said:

From a talk last conference:

Now obviously, Elder Christofferson is not talking about wealth distribution here.

Edit: didn't read carefully enough.

I agree that righteousness brings spiritual blessings. 

Edited March 16, 2017 by Gray

[Gray]

6 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I was not asking for a scriptural justification for rain (and every other darned thing) falling on everyone equally.  I'm perfectly aware that He said that.  But in saying that, the Lord was not teaching against the value of work.  I thought you were disputing something else.

Nevermind.

 

Actually Jesus did preach against the value of work, or at least someone put those words in his mouth. I do see the value of work, but hard work isn't enough to bring prosperity to everyone. 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

He didn't say anything about deserving good gifts from God. He specifically called his audience "evil"

Perhaps you are misunderstanding me.  I have said nothing about "deserving" any gifts/blessing be they spiritual or temporal.  If God desires to prosper us, it is out of grace that he does so.  It is clear however that he does place contingencies if we are to be prospered by him.  One contingency is that we "ask".  That requires faith.

Again, "...how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? (Matt 7:11)"

"And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive (Matt 21:22)

I think a lot of people started praying for riches at that point and became confused when they didn't receive them, because James later clarified: 

"Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts (James 4:3)."

Note that all things, even temporal blessings are promised to us so long as we do not ask to consume it upon our lusts.  The BoM makes this clear, that we will be blessed with material wealth if we ask and seek them for altruistic purposes. 

1 hour ago, Gray said:

I'm not sure what 3 John would have to do with a passage from the gospel of John. They may not have even been the same author. It's uncertain. The John passage is talking about spiritual. To turn it into something about filthy lucre seems more than a little blasphemous, no? 

I am pointing out that early Christians believed that the Lord prospers us not only spiritually, but temporally as well.  It is not only found in the old testament.  They prayed for temporal prosperity. "...that ye may prosper in all things and be in health, just as your soul prospers."  

Again, did Christ not heal physical pain and sickness as well?  Did he not admonish us to feed the hungry and clothe the naked?  You see, he was concerned about more than JUST spiritual things. No, he was concerned about our temporal welfare as well.  Why would he not bless us temporally to be better servants in those ways if we asked?  The BoM makes it clear that he will.

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Yes, prosperity gospel is throughout the old testament, but it seems hard to find in the words or claimed words of Jesus. Jesus was the most righteous of us, but was a homeless wandering preacher who was tortured and murdered. 

Yes, prosperity gospel is throughout the old testament, and Jesus taught from these books in the old testament like Psalms where those passages I quoted are found.  He fulfilled the laws of the old testament, but he left other things unchanged.  He NEVER recanted on the passages I previously quoted.  We are to assume therefore, that he believed them, we just don't see it emphasized in his teachings, but he never said that God, from now on, will not prosper you temporally like he did in the old testament. 

If you think that Christ was not prospered temporally by God, you need to think again.  No disobedient man could have prospered like Christ did having gone through what he did.  He was fed and clothed and physically preserved through anguish that would have brought a sinner certain death.   I think you are misunderstanding me here as well.  I am not saying that the righteous will all be wealthy and free of hardships in their life.  What I am saying is that righteousness brings spiritual and temporal prosperity in ways that would not otherwise be available.  I have already given the example of the Israelites.  For them, manna was prosperity.  You see it is relative.  They were preserved where others would have perished.  But they did not have abundance, nor were they free of hardship.

The early Christians certainly believed that God prospers us temporally and spiritually.  But they understood where their focus and attention should be:

 “charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute. …” (1 Tim. 6:10, 17–18.)

They clearly acknowledged the Lords hand in temporal blessings.  They were reminded to not trust in riches, but to trust in God who provided them for us to "enjoy" and bless others with. 

 

Edited March 16, 2017 by pogi

[pogi]

18 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

The fact is that when the scriptures mention the blessings of material wealth, that mention is  -- more often than not -- accompanied by dire warnings of what the Savior calls"the deceitfulness of riches," meaning the great potential dangers the possession of riches can bring into one's life. Over and over again, the Lord and the prophets warn that unless the receipients of material wealth remain ever vigilant, prayerful and deeply humble, devastating possibilities await at the door. Because the scriptures so often couple the mention of material wealth with solemn warnings concerning the great care that must be taken in order to avoid falling into the adversary's traps, I refuse to ignore the obvious implications of that very frequent coupling of the blessing with the warning. What follows is just one of those oft-repeated scriptural warnings (the Savior's words in bold).

Yes, and we see similar warnings, cautions, and dangers about life in general.  But if we only focus on those warnings, then we are likely to be governed by fear instead of faith and will miss out on potential blessings.  You almost make it sound like we should avoid material wealth because it is too dangerous.  With that kind of attitude, none of us would have elected and chosen life in the first place because of the risks.  To be tested is a good thing, to avoid being tested leads to temporal and spiritual stagnation.  I am aware of the dangers, but I still choose life. 

"And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved?

And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God."

Do you see how you only focus on the warnings while downplaying the opportunities?

Keep God on your side and all things are possible, even getting a rich man into heaven.  I know plenty of very wealthy individuals who I really admire.  They are the salt of the earth.  

Edited March 16, 2017 by pogi

[Bobbieaware]

On 3/15/2017 at 1:56 PM, Bobbieaware said:

The scriptures make it quite clear that the gospel of Christ is a divinely-ordained program of individual and collective spiritual progression that rewards those who obey God's will with an abundance of both spiritual and temporal blessings. My main point here is to bring into sharp focus the oft-repeated scriptural warnings that when the Lord deliberately blesses some of his children with temporal prosperity. as a natural consequence of faithful obedience, that blessing also comes with unavoidable tests that will challenge the depth of one's conversion to God and spiritual character. Accordingly, the Book of Mormon makes it plainly obvious that when the followers of Christ are blessed of the Lord with temporal prosperity, all too often those so blessed eventually come to fail the aforesaid unavoidable tests of faith and fall from grace. Simply put, while temporal prosperity can often be a good and wonderful blessing from the Lord, it's a blessing that comes with many potential hidden dangers and temptations of which the adversary of men's souls takes full malicious advantage. 

The only way those so blessed can prevent themselves from falling from grace is to genuinely think and act as king Benjamin counseled, and that is to think of themselves as impoverished and desperately needy beggar,s in spite of their wealth. The potential pitfalls of temporal wealth are so dangerous that the Lord warned it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Why would the Lord say something that, at least on the surface, seems so uncharitable and outlandish? It's because as long as a rich man considers himself to be independently wealthy, and not a totally dependent beggar before God, he won't spiritually have what it takes in order to be exalted. And it is for this same reason that the Lord said, "blessed are the poor IN SPIRIT, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

 19 For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind?

 20 And behold, even at this time, ye have been calling on his name, and begging for a remission of your sins. And has he suffered that ye have begged in vain? Nay; he has poured out his Spirit upon you, and has caused that your hearts should be filled with joy, and has caused that your mouths should be stopped that ye could not find utterance, so exceedingly great was your joy.

 21 And now, if God, who has created you, on whom you are dependent for your lives and for all that ye have and are, doth grant unto you whatsoever ye ask that is right, in faith, believing that ye shall receive, O then, how ye ought to impart of the substance that ye have one to another.

 22 And if ye judge the man who putteth up his petition to you for your substance that he perish not, and condemn him, how much more just will be your condemnation for withholding your substance, which doth not belong to you but to God, to whom also your life belongeth; and yet ye put up no petition, nor repent of the thing which thou hast done.

 23 I say unto you, wo be unto that man, for his substance shall perish with him; and now, I say these things unto those who are rich as pertaining to the things of this world. (Mosiah 4)

 

[pogi]

48 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

My main point here is to bring into sharp focus the oft-repeated scriptural warnings...

Ya, I get it.

Edited March 16, 2017 by pogi

[thesometimesaint]

Abraham was rich by the standards of his day. I think he made it to Heaven. It isn't money itself that damns people, it is the love of it.

[Bobbieaware]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

Yes, and we see similar warnings, cautions, and dangers about life in general.  But if we only focus on those warnings, then we are likely to be governed by fear instead of faith and will miss out on potential blessings.  You almost make it sound like we should avoid material wealth because it is too dangerous.  With that kind of attitude, none of us would have elected and chosen life in the first place because of the risks.  To be tested is a good thing, to avoid being tested leads to temporal and spiritual stagnation.  I am aware of the dangers, but I still choose life. 

"And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved?

And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God."

Do you see how you only focus on the warnings but are blind to the opportunities?

Keep God on your side and all things are possible, even getting a rich man into heaven.  I know plenty of very wealthy individuals who I really admire.  They are the salt of the earth.  

Within the private thoughts of my mind, I do not just focus on the pitfalls associated with material wealth. IIn reality, I'm able to easily comprehend the many wonderful spiritual and temporal blessings that accompany material wealth when placed in the hands of the true disciples of Christ (when I say true disciples, I mean those followers of the Savior who honestly and sincerely view themselves as utterly dependent beggars before God and fully realize they will only continue to be blessed with spiritual and temporal blessings if they come down into the very depths of meekness and humility). It is only after obtaining this blessed state of authentic discipleship that there can be full confidence material wealth will be used in a manner that's fully compliant with the mind and will of God.

As a real-life example that illustrates my point of view on this subject, I will say I believe the Church is now being mightily blessed toward the accomplishment of it's manifold mission by the fact that it is a well-run organization that's financially sound and endowed with sufficient stores of capital to move the kingdom of God forward in a highly confident and efficient manner. For this great blessing I truly rejoice. And as an aside, I will say I'm certainly not one of those who decry the accumulated material wealth and financial dealings of the Church. I say this because I don't see how the Church will be able to fulfill the prophecies that say It will become an independent and self-sufficient economic entity, and fully establish Zion, unless it has many holdings and much accumulated material wealth. 

If the teachings of the Church do indeed embrace some version of a prosperity gospel, that gospel is succinctly summarized by the teachings of Jacob, who testified...

 17 Think of your brethren like unto yourselves, and be familiar with all and free with your substance, that they may be rich like unto you.

 18 But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God.

 19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted. (Jacob 2)

Edited March 16, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[pogi]

On 3/14/2017 at 9:03 PM, The Nehor said:

The best LDS refutation of the Prosperity gospel is in a little-known and rarely quoted parable in the Doctrine and Covenants 38:

 25 And again I say unto you, let every man esteem his brother as himself.

 26 For what man among you having twelve sons, and is no respecter of them, and they serve him obediently, and he saith unto the one: Be thou clothed in robes and sit thou here; and to the other: Be thou clothed in rags and sit thou there—and looketh upon his sons and saith I am just?

 27 Behold, this I have given unto you as a parable, and it is even as I am. I say unto you, be one; and if ye are not one ye are not mine.

Remember this is the Lord speaking. He tells us to esteem our brothers as ourselves. Then he gives the parable of a man who has twelve sons and all served him equally well (so there can be no question of merit) and yet gives some riches and some poverty. Then the Father says he is just for doing so. Then God declares that this is "even as I am". God does this.

Then he commands us to be one. God states that he does not necessarily reward righteousness with wealth. He claims to be just while being unfair with temporal (and possibly other) blessings. Then he commands us to be one. I would submit that the implication is that God created the unfairness and expects us to fix this inequality.

 

The prosperity gospel is laughable and in my experience comes from those ignorant of scripture or those blinded to scripture by a sense of greed. The former are generally Christians seeking to get something earthy out of it with no interest in spiritual things while the latter often imagine that God will give them wealth so they can help others disguising their own avarice from themselves.

So I finally got around to reviewing this little-known passage in the D&C.  When taken in context this chapter is actually one of the best examples in all of scripture for and not against a form of prosperity gospel in the church.  I agree that this parable implores us to fix the iniquity, but the answer of how to fix it is through prosperity principles taught in the chapter:  

 

16 And for your salvation I give unto you a commandment, for I have heard your prayers, and the poor have complained before me, and the rich have I made, and all flesh is mine, and I am no respecter of persons.

 17 And I have made the earth rich, and behold it is my footstool, wherefore, again I will stand upon it.

 18 And I hold forth and deign to give unto you greater riches, even a land of promise, a land flowing with milk and honey, upon which there shall be no curse when the Lord cometh;

 19 And I will give it unto you for the land of your inheritance, if you seek it with all your hearts.

39 And if ye seek the riches which it is the will of the Father to give unto you, ye shall be the richest of all people, for ye shall have the riches of eternity; and it must needs be that the riches of the earth are mine to give; but beware of pride, lest ye become as the Nephites of old.

So the best way to fix the problem is to seek for what God "wills" and "deigns" to bless us with, even the riches of the earth, so that we can do as it says in verse 35,  "...look to the poor and the needy, and administer to their relief that they shall not suffer; "

[Meadowchik]

It is interesting to compare Utah's extraordinary proliferation of MLMs with the original, earlier stories of Mormon origins: treasure in Cumorah, disappearing stone boxes and caves therein, treasure hunting with divining rods and seer stones, and these interests bringing together witnesses of the plates, principally the Smith, Cowdery, Whitmer, and Harris families.

 It was truly a time of magical thinking, and the Church has somehow managed to nurture that mentality nearly two hundred years into the future even though explicitly magical aspects are pretty much erased from our church curriculum. 

[Ahab]

9 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

It is interesting to compare Utah's extraordinary proliferation of MLMs with the original, earlier stories of Mormon origins: treasure in Cumorah, disappearing stone boxes and caves therein, treasure hunting with divining rods and seer stones, and these interests bringing together witnesses of the plates, principally the Smith, Cowdery, Whitmer, and Harris families.

 It was truly a time of magical thinking, and the Church has somehow managed to nurture that mentality nearly two hundred years into the future even though explicitly magical aspects are pretty much erased from our church curriculum. 

Pretty much, maybe, but I sometimes think of the white stones mentioned in the book of Revelation as what our missionaries get on their missions now.  Crystal display screens that can show all kinds of neat things.

[pogi]

10 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

It is interesting to compare Utah's extraordinary proliferation of MLMs with the original, earlier stories of Mormon origins: treasure in Cumorah, disappearing stone boxes and caves therein, treasure hunting with divining rods and seer stones, and these interests bringing together witnesses of the plates, principally the Smith, Cowdery, Whitmer, and Harris families.

 It was truly a time of magical thinking, and the Church has somehow managed to nurture that mentality nearly two hundred years into the future even though explicitly magical aspects are pretty much erased from our church curriculum. 

I'm not sure I follow.  What do MLMs have to do with magical thinking?  Wishful, misguided, and perhaps greedy thinking maybe, but not magical.  Yes, Joseph was involved in some folk magic early on, but he was set straight about that and it has nothing to do with Mormonism.  There is nothing magic about the gold plates etc. 

[clarkgoble]

59 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

It is interesting to compare Utah's extraordinary proliferation of MLMs with the original, earlier stories of Mormon origins:

Most of the MLMs make their money outside of Utah. If I recall NuSkin is primarily Asian especially Japan. 

As for why they use that marketing model, I suspect it's because of the large number of mothers who can't work fulltime in Utah. Typically they require a job that's flexible, doesn't have fixed hours, and that they're interested in.

[Calm]

I believe the success of MLMs in Utah are more to do with the legal setup up in Utah than alleged magical thinking.  I will have to check with my husband who is a professor of entrepreneurship.  He talks quite a bit about how Utah is highly favorable legally.

Also as Clark said, there is an atypical population looking for extra ways to make a bit of money with flexible hours and if possible working out of one's home.  Extended networking in the culture contributes as well.

Edited March 17, 2017 by Calm

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, pogi said:

So I finally got around to reviewing this little-known passage in the D&C.  When taken in context this chapter is actually one of the best examples in all of scripture for and not against a form of prosperity gospel in the church.  I agree that this parable implores us to fix the iniquity, but the answer of how to fix it is through prosperity principles taught in the chapter:  

 

16 And for your salvation I give unto you a commandment, for I have heard your prayers, and the poor have complained before me, and the rich have I made, and all flesh is mine, and I am no respecter of persons.

 17 And I have made the earth rich, and behold it is my footstool, wherefore, again I will stand upon it.

 18 And I hold forth and deign to give unto you greater riches, even a land of promise, a land flowing with milk and honey, upon which there shall be no curse when the Lord cometh;

 19 And I will give it unto you for the land of your inheritance, if you seek it with all your hearts.

39 And if ye seek the riches which it is the will of the Father to give unto you, ye shall be the richest of all people, for ye shall have the riches of eternity; and it must needs be that the riches of the earth are mine to give; but beware of pride, lest ye become as the Nephites of old.

So the best way to fix the problem is to seek for what God "wills" and "deigns" to bless us with, even the riches of the earth, so that we can do as it says in verse 35,  "...look to the poor and the needy, and administer to their relief that they shall not suffer; "

And when we live consecration and build Zion we will be the richest people in, well, ever. That is what the parable is commanding. He will give some to some of the people and through consecration all will be blessed and the blessings (temporal and spiritual) that all have been given will be shared freely.

If you want to say that building Zion inevitably leads to prosperity I am okay with that as even those who are not blessed with riches will receive them through consecration. We do not live that now and until we do using temporal wealth as an indicator of righteousness will lead us very wrongly.

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

It is interesting to compare Utah's extraordinary proliferation of MLMs with the original, earlier stories of Mormon origins: treasure in Cumorah, disappearing stone boxes and caves therein, treasure hunting with divining rods and seer stones, and these interests bringing together witnesses of the plates, principally the Smith, Cowdery, Whitmer, and Harris families.

 It was truly a time of magical thinking, and the Church has somehow managed to nurture that mentality nearly two hundred years into the future even though explicitly magical aspects are pretty much erased from our church curriculum. 

It has less to do with magical thinking and more with trust. These things tend to proliferate in people with lots of social connections and LDS are very good at that. You see the same thing in other social churches and other social groups that foster a lot of trust between members of the group. Some imagine that people in their ward will never lead them wrong.

[Meadowchik]

10 hours ago, pogi said:

I'm not sure I follow.  What do MLMs have to do with magical thinking?  Wishful, misguided, and perhaps greedy thinking maybe, but not magical.  Yes, Joseph was involved in some folk magic early on, but he was set straight about that and it has nothing to do with Mormonism.  There is nothing magic about the gold plates etc. 

Joseph and the witnesses believed in second sight and claimed to experience it in other matters before they ever saw the plates. He and his early believers also used seer stones and divining rods for discovery of objects they believed were hidden.  Joseph was used to his parents recalling tales of treasures in the hill Cumorah, before his discovery of the plates.  In other words, it is the same epistemological techniques used in treasure-hunting, second-sight and seer stones, etc..., with which Joseph saw the angel Moroni and the plates, with which the witnesses "saw and handled" the plates and the angel, with which Oliver Cowdery, Hyrum, and others entered the cave inside Cumorah containing the plates, the sword of Laban, and enormous stores of records and wealth.

Second sight, even involving whole groups, was not an isolated event at those times.  There are accounts of other groups of people seeing marvelous things with their spiritual eyes and believing what they had seen until their deaths.

This type of thinking is aptly described as magical thinking.  No actual treasure was ever produced by Joseph with these powers, the same powers he says brought him the plates and the Restoration.

So this type of thinking has everything to do with Mormonism, it is at the absolute core of Mormon foundations, including the translation of The Book of Mormon.

 

[Meadowchik]

10 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

Most of the MLMs make their money outside of Utah. If I recall NuSkin is primarily Asian especially Japan. 

As for why they use that marketing model, I suspect it's because of the large number of mothers who can't work fulltime in Utah. Typically they require a job that's flexible, doesn't have fixed hours, and that they're interested in.

Now the success of Utah MLMs is partially attributed to mothers working from home, but I remember my parents jointly plunking down their scarce funds to start selling Amway. It was not just a mom thing. When I was a teen looking for a summer job, I answered an ad and went to an Herbalife meeting, which was of course, beguiling but ultimately disappointing.

Also, it does not have to be exclusively Mormon or Mormon-invented for it to be especially attractive to the Mormon culture and mindset.  I think that there is a connection between doctrines established in the church's root beginnings and the attractiveness of MLMs--and also prosperity gospel teachings--today: sacrificing for the church, consecrating all for the church, enduring to the end, these are still prevailing mindsets arching over all of Mormon culture, church structure, and doctrine.  By being expected to spend our lives to the very last for the church, we engender a mindset of impoverished personal selves. This attitude of being personally impoverished, on more than one level, makes schemes of riches much more attractive.  The whole concept of wearing ourselves out for the Lord for a prize in the end which we can only see now with our spiritual eyes is very similar to the structure of pyramid schemes.

[Meadowchik]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It has less to do with magical thinking and more with trust. These things tend to proliferate in people with lots of social connections and LDS are very good at that. You see the same thing in other social churches and other social groups that foster a lot of trust between members of the group. Some imagine that people in their ward will never lead them wrong.

Compare a life built more about living in the moment at a sustainable, adequately-rewarding pace, to the mindset of wearing ourselves out for some future unseen gain.

[Gray]

21 hours ago, pogi said:

Perhaps you are misunderstanding me.  I have said nothing about "deserving" any gifts/blessing be they spiritual or temporal.  If God desires to prosper us, it is out of grace that he does so.  It is clear however that he does place contingencies if we are to be prospered by him.  One contingency is that we "ask".  That requires faith.

Again, "...how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? (Matt 7:11)"

"And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive (Matt 21:22)

In which case we're no longer talking about prosperity gospel, which is about prosperity as a blessing for righteousness. 

 

21 hours ago, pogi said:

I think a lot of people started praying for riches at that point and became confused when they didn't receive them, because James later clarified: 

"Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts (James 4:3)."

Note that all things, even temporal blessings are promised to us so long as we do not ask to consume it upon our lusts.  The BoM makes this clear, that we will be blessed with material wealth if we ask and seek them for altruistic purposes. 

I am pointing out that early Christians believed that the Lord prospers us not only spiritually, but temporally as well.  It is not only found in the old testament.  They prayed for temporal prosperity. "...that ye may prosper in all things and be in health, just as your soul prospers."  

Again, did Christ not heal physical pain and sickness as well?  Did he not admonish us to feed the hungry and clothe the naked?  You see, he was concerned about more than JUST spiritual things. No, he was concerned about our temporal welfare as well.  Why would he not bless us temporally to be better servants in those ways if we asked?  The BoM makes it clear that he will.

Yes, prosperity gospel is throughout the old testament, and Jesus taught from these books in the old testament like Psalms where those passages I quoted are found.  He fulfilled the laws of the old testament, but he left other things unchanged.  He NEVER recanted on the passages I previously quoted.  We are to assume therefore, that he believed them, we just don't see it emphasized in his teachings, but he never said that God, from now on, will not prosper you temporally like he did in the old testament. 

If you think that Christ was not prospered temporally by God, you need to think again.  No disobedient man could have prospered like Christ did having gone through what he did.  He was fed and clothed and physically preserved through anguish that would have brought a sinner certain death.   I think you are misunderstanding me here as well.  I am not saying that the righteous will all be wealthy and free of hardships in their life.  What I am saying is that righteousness brings spiritual and temporal prosperity in ways that would not otherwise be available.  I have already given the example of the Israelites.  For them, manna was prosperity.  You see it is relative.  They were preserved where others would have perished.  But they did not have abundance, nor were they free of hardship.

The early Christians certainly believed that God prospers us temporally and spiritually.  But they understood where their focus and attention should be:

 “charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute. …” (1 Tim. 6:10, 17–18.)

They clearly acknowledged the Lords hand in temporal blessings.  They were reminded to not trust in riches, but to trust in God who provided them for us to "enjoy" and bless others with. 

 

Jesus was not prosperous at all, not in material things. He was the opposite. He even charged his disciples to eschew material things and go without purse or scrip, relying on the kindness of strangers. 

I don't think you can conclude that just because something appears in the Tanakh, Jesus automatically interpreted it the same way that you do. That would be highly presumptuous. 

[pogi]

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

And when we live consecration and build Zion we will be the richest people in, well, ever. That is what the parable is commanding. He will give some to some of the people and through consecration all will be blessed and the blessings (temporal and spiritual) that all have been given will be shared freely.

If you want to say that building Zion inevitably leads to prosperity I am okay with that as even those who are not blessed with riches will receive them through consecration. We do not live that now and until we do using temporal wealth as an indicator of righteousness will lead us very wrongly.

I agree that using temporal wealth as an indicator for righteousness would be a big mistake.  My only point is that the Lord prospers us both temporally and spiritually as we obey.  It may not always be riches, but for some it may be food on their table, inspired direction at work, or some other temporal blessing that they may not have otherwise enjoyed.  There still may be hardship, sickness, or death, but I believe that we are prospered in ways that we would not have been otherwise.   The BoM makes it clear that prosperity principles are not reserved only for those living consecration.  A righteous Zion, living consecration, will no doubt increase those blessings.

[pogi]

14 minutes ago, Gray said:

In which case we're no longer talking about prosperity gospel, which is about prosperity as a blessing for righteousness. 

That is precisely what those passages indicate - blessing the righteous who pray in faith with "all things whatsoever they ask" in righteousness.  The disbelieving doubters are not promised to be prospered in the same way.

19 minutes ago, Gray said:

Jesus was not prosperous at all, not in material things. He was the opposite. He even charged his disciples to eschew material things and go without purse or scrip, relying on the kindness of strangers. 

 "Prosperous" is a relative term.  Compared to an unrighteous man who lived the same lifestyle, relying solely on the kindness of strangers, Jesus and his disciples were certainly prospered, clothed and fed by the hand of the Lord like the lilies of the field.  They did not have to resort to begging and panhandling as far as we can tell, but they were able to spend their time building the kingdom of God instead, as they were prospered and lived relatively comfortable compared to other homeless beggars from all indications. 

23 minutes ago, Gray said:

I don't think you can conclude that just because something appears in the Tanakh, Jesus automatically interpreted it the same way that you do. That would be highly presumptuous. 

You yourself said that the old testament was full of prosperity gospel.  Presumptuous? Or is it really there?  We may never know exactly how Christ interpreted it, but I find good reason to believe that it was actually taught back then.

[Stargazer]

On 3/16/2017 at 8:24 AM, Gray said:

Actually Jesus did preach against the value of work, or at least someone put those words in his mouth. I do see the value of work, but hard work isn't enough to bring prosperity to everyone. 

Well, darn. Please cite the verse or verses.  I am fairly sure I've never seen it or them.

[Gray]

12 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Well, darn. Please cite the verse or verses.  I am fairly sure I've never seen it or them.

Matthew 6:

Quote

 

Do Not Worry

25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life[e]?

28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

 

I suppose you could try to derive a prosperity gospel from this, although in context it looks like he's promising God will provide basic food and clothing, not prosperity.