Mormonism, the original prosperity gospel?

[Gray]

On 3/17/2017 at 10:05 AM, pogi said:

That is precisely what those passages indicate - blessing the righteous who pray in faith with "all things whatsoever they ask" in righteousness.  The disbelieving doubters are not promised to be prospered in the same way.

 "Prosperous" is a relative term.  Compared to an unrighteous man who lived the same lifestyle, relying solely on the kindness of strangers, Jesus and his disciples were certainly prospered, clothed and fed by the hand of the Lord like the lilies of the field.  They did not have to resort to begging and panhandling as far as we can tell, but they were able to spend their time building the kingdom of God instead, as they were prospered and lived relatively comfortable compared to other homeless beggars from all indications. 

Actually they relied on strangers to take them in and feed them. They were never prosperous, but they didn't starve either. 

 

 

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Gray said:

Actually they relied on strangers to take them in and feed them. They were never prosperous, but they didn't starve either. 

Yes, the Lord often prospers us through strangers.  Homeless/jobless people likely spend a great deal of time thinking about and being anxious about what to eat, what to drink, where to lay their head, how to be clothed etc. Begging was probably a full-time job just to get by.  Christ had other things in store for his apostles.  He promised his apostles temporal blessings in exchange for their faith and devotion.  Those are principles of prosperity gospel.  Like I said, "prosperous" is relative, but there is no denying that the apostles were prospered for their faith and effort in seeking the kingdom of God.  For being jobless/homeless and never giving thought to food/drink/clothing, and never spending their days begging, I would say that they were relatively prosperous.

Matthew 6 American Standard Version:

25 Therefore I say unto you, Be not anxious for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than the food, and the body than the raiment?

26 Behold the birds of the heaven, that they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; and your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are not ye of much more value than they?

27 And which of you by being anxious can add one cubit unto the measure of his life?

28 And why are ye anxious concerning raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:

29 yet I say unto you, that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

30 But if God doth so clothe the grass of the field, which to-day is, and to-morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

31 Be not therefore anxious, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

32 For after all these things do the Gentiles seek; for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

33 But seek ye first his kingdom, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

 

Edited March 24, 2017 by pogi

[pogi]

Since this thread has been resurrected, maybe I will share one more scripture.

Last night a couple members of the stake high council came by to visit my family and to share the stake theme for this month, which is "back to the basics".  One of the basics they are focusing on is keeping the Sabbath day holy. They shared some verses from the D&C and I was once again reminded of prosperity theology teachings in Mormonism.  Here are the verses they read from in D&C 59:

12 But remember that on this, the Lord’s day, thou shalt offer thine oblations and thy sacraments unto the Most High, confessing thy sins unto thy brethren, and before the Lord.

13 And on this day thou shalt do none other thing, only let thy food be prepared with singleness of heart that thy fasting may be perfect, or, in other words, that thy joy may be full.

14 Verily, this is fasting and prayer, or in other words, rejoicing and prayer.

15 And inasmuch as ye do these things with thanksgiving, with cheerful hearts and countenances, not with much laughter, for this is sin, but with a glad heart and a cheerful countenance—

16 Verily I say, that inasmuch as ye do this, the fulness of the earth is yours, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which climbeth upon the trees and walketh upon the earth;

17 Yea, and the herb, and the good things which come of the earth, whether for food or for raiment, or for houses, or for barns, or for orchards, or for gardens, or for vineyards;

18 Yea, all things which come of the earth, in the season thereof, are made for the benefit and the use of man, both to please the eye and to gladden the heart;

19 Yea, for food and for raiment, for taste and for smell, to strengthen the body and to enliven the soul.

20 And it pleaseth God that he hath given all these things unto man; for unto this end were they made to be used, with judgment, not to excess, neither by extortion.

21 And in nothing doth man offend God, or against none is his wrath kindled, save those who confess not his hand in all things, and obey not his commandments.

 

[Gray]

18 hours ago, pogi said:

Yes, the Lord often prospers us through strangers.  Homeless/jobless people likely spend a great deal of time thinking about and being anxious about what to eat, what to drink, where to lay their head, how to be clothed etc. Begging was probably a full-time job just to get by.  Christ had other things in store for his apostles.  He promised his apostles temporal blessings in exchange for their faith and devotion.  Those are principles of prosperity gospel.  Like I said, "prosperous" is relative, but there is no denying that the apostles were prospered for their faith and effort in seeking the kingdom of God.  For being jobless/homeless and never giving thought to food/drink/clothing, and never spending their days begging, I would say that they were relatively prosperous.

Matthew 6 American Standard Version:

25 Therefore I say unto you, Be not anxious for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than the food, and the body than the raiment?

26 Behold the birds of the heaven, that they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; and your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are not ye of much more value than they?

27 And which of you by being anxious can add one cubit unto the measure of his life?

28 And why are ye anxious concerning raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:

29 yet I say unto you, that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

30 But if God doth so clothe the grass of the field, which to-day is, and to-morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

31 Be not therefore anxious, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

32 For after all these things do the Gentiles seek; for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

33 But seek ye first his kingdom, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

 

Earliest sources have Jesus sending out apostles without a bag to carry possessions in, without a staff to protect themselves (whether from bandits or stray dogs), and without even sandals to protect their feet. They were totally interdependent with the people they were ministering to. That's not prosperity in any recognizable form of the word!

[theplains]

On 14/03/2017 at 1:59 PM, pogi said:

Some of you may be familiar with prosperity theology made popular in the 1950's through healing revivals and televangelists.  Many of their ideas arise from the "New Thought" movement which began in the 19th century.  In learning about this theology, I couldn't help but see many parallels in Mormonism.  The first and most glaring parallel I found is in one of the central doctrines that it is God's will for his people to be happy. 

The prosperity gospel actually started with Satan back in the Garden of Eden when he tempted Eve. The idea of
'prospering' (becoming) like God appealed to her.

Thanks,
Jim

[pogi]

23 hours ago, Gray said:

Earliest sources have Jesus sending out apostles without a bag to carry possessions in, without a staff to protect themselves (whether from bandits or stray dogs), and without even sandals to protect their feet. 

Yet they were fed,  clothed etc. and we're prospered with these things without giving any thought to them.  This was the hand of the Lord intervening because of their faith as promised by Christ.

23 hours ago, Gray said:

That's not prosperity in any recognizable form of the word!

Like I said, it is relative.  Manna is prosperity when you have nothing and are starving.

[pogi]

12 hours ago, theplains said:

The prosperity gospel actually started with Satan back in the Garden of Eden when he tempted Eve. The idea of
'prospering' (becoming) like God appealed to her.

Thanks,
Jim

Actually Mormon theology places the origins before the garden of Eden, way back to the pre-mortal existence with the plan of salvation - to become like God through obedience and faith. 

[Gray]

12 hours ago, pogi said:

Yet they were fed,  clothed etc. and we're prospered with these things without giving any thought to them.  This was the hand of the Lord intervening because of their faith as promised by Christ.

Like I said, it is relative.  Manna is prosperity when you have nothing and are starving.

You're streeeeetching the word prosper past the breaking point. They were essentially homeless, and relied on the kindness of strangers to feed them and give them a place to sleep. What that could possibly have to do with the prosperity gospel, I'm sure I don't know.

[probablyHagoth7]

8 hours ago, Gray said:

You're streeeeetching the word prosper past the breaking point. They were essentially homeless, and relied on the kindness of strangers to feed them and give them a place to sleep. What that could possibly have to do with the prosperity gospel, I'm sure I don't know.

2

Then here is how you can know. :0)

The meaning/etymology of "prosper":

"To cause to succeed, render happy," from prosperus "favorable, fortunate, prosperous," perhaps literally "agreeable to one's wishes," traditionally regarded as from Old Latin pro spere "according to expectation, according to one's hope," 

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=prosper

If one's temporal needs are met while on the Lord's errand...one *is* prospering.

[stemelbow]

52 minutes ago, probablyHagoth7 said:

Then here is how you can know. :0)

The meaning/etymology of "prosper":

"To cause to succeed, render happy," from prosperus "favorable, fortunate, prosperous," perhaps literally "agreeable to one's wishes," traditionally regarded as from Old Latin pro spere "according to expectation, according to one's hope," 

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=prosper

If one's temporal needs are met while on the Lord's errand...one *is* prospering.

Living the gospel doesn't help one prosper, as you define it, any more than not living it.  There are members of the Church who struggle to get their temporal needs met and their are those who aren't members who struggle.  There are members who live in luxury beyond most people's in the worlds comprehension and there are non members who do too. 

[pogi]

8 hours ago, Gray said:

You're streeeeetching the word prosper past the breaking point. They were essentially homeless, and relied on the kindness of strangers to feed them and give them a place to sleep. What that could possibly have to do with the prosperity gospel, I'm sure I don't know.

I think we are beating a dead horse a bit here. I can understand why you think I am stretching the word prosper, but that is how the word is used in the BOM.  The promise of prospering in the land is not just speaking of wealth and riches.  It is talking about the blessing of God's intervening hand in not just spiritual but temporal aspects of our lives.  It is about physical preservation in battle (Sons of Helaman), physical healing (Jesus Christ and many others), being directed in the wilderness to find meat and towards the promised land (Nephi).  There are examples of the Lord prospering his people even in slavery by making their burdens light, and freeing them from slavery.  There are examples of prospering in physical strength (Ammon), health, and yes, there are examples of wealth as well.  To me, the Mormon version of prosperity gospel is about much more than wealth.  It is about being strengthened, healed, preserved, fed, clothed, directed in our lives, and generally in receiving temporal blessings above and beyond what we would have received otherwise.  There is no promise of riches for everybody, but there is a promise that we will be prospered in the land.  All of those examples of being prospered fit dictionary definitions which define prosper as becoming successful, healthy, strong, etc.  It is often associated with financial wealth, but it can encompass more than just wealth. 

[pogi]

29 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Living the gospel doesn't help one prosper, as you define it, any more than not living it.  There are members of the Church who struggle to get their temporal needs met and their are those who aren't members who struggle.  There are members who live in luxury beyond most people's in the worlds comprehension and there are non members who do too. 

First of all, prosperity is not a promise for membership in the church.  It is not even conditional on membership.  There are many non-members who live the principles of prosperity and receive the same blessings, and there are many members who do not live by those principles.  

Second of all, how can you say that these families are not prospered beyond what they otherwise would have been?  I would be willing to bet that if you were to poll people who are living the principles of prosperity and asked them if they see evidence of the Lord's prospering hand in their life, I believe the vast majority would recognize those blessings.  You have to understand that prosperity is not exclusively about financial wealth  Even with the Lord's prospering hand, we can experience difficulties in our lives - even slavery.  The prospering often comes in how we endure such difficulties and even overcome them.  Many people lose faith and hope of prosperity in difficult situations and never receive the promised blessings. 

Edited March 27, 2017 by pogi

[stemelbow]

21 minutes ago, pogi said:

First of all, prosperity is not a promise for membership in the church.  It is not even conditional on membership.  There are many non-members who live the principles of prosperity and receive the same blessings, and there are many members who do not live by those principles.  

Second of all, how can you say that these families are not prospered beyond what they otherwise would have been?  I would be willing to bet that if you were to poll people who are living the principles of prosperity and asked them if they see evidence of the Lord's prospering hand in their life, I believe the vast majority would recognize those blessings.  You have to understand that prosperity is not exclusively about financial wealth  Even with the Lord's prospering hand, we can experience difficulties in our lives - even slavery.  The prospering often comes in how we endure such difficulties and even overcome them.  Many people lose faith and hope of prosperity in difficult situations and never receive the promised blessings. 

I agree many believers attribute their blessings to God.  I'm pointing out that believers are right in the thick of society when it comes to prosperity, even if you are saying that prosperity is defined differently than Hagoth7 defined it.  I have no polls on this, but I'm going off of my own observations.  Just as I don't know if a believer is blessed beyond a non-believer, you don't know if a non-believer is blessed beyond a believer.  Each group find themselves in all categories of prosperity. 

[pogi]

32 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I agree many believers attribute their blessings to God.  I'm pointing out that believers are right in the thick of society when it comes to prosperity, even if you are saying that prosperity is defined differently than Hagoth7 defined it.  I have no polls on this, but I'm going off of my own observations.  Just as I don't know if a believer is blessed beyond a non-believer, you don't know if a non-believer is blessed beyond a believer.  Each group find themselves in all categories of prosperity. 

I don't think that Mormons in general are necessarily better than the rest of the world at living the principles of prosperity.  In fact, I often see the exact opposite of prosperity principles being lived.  I see a lot of seeking for riches before the kingdom of God, and on the other side of things, I see many (especially in my ward) who don't even believe in prosperity gospel, but who are stuck in poverty and struggle mentality which sucks the life out of faith in prosperity.  They view it as a sign of their faith and a badge of their righteousness.  "Ask and ye shall receive". 

In other words, I wouldn't expect to see greater wealth in the church.

Edited March 27, 2017 by pogi

[clarkgoble]

2 hours ago, probablyHagoth7 said:

Then here is how you can know. :0)

The meaning/etymology of "prosper":

Again if you go back a few pages I discussed how typically when the Book of Mormon uses the term it is defined close by - typically as being protected from invasion/slavery.  Appeals to the dictionary are always misleading as they merely give the main vague uses of people in that community but not the way it is used in any particular text. That's why in university classes when discussing literature you won't see people appealing to the dictionary. What counts is the author's use not the dictionary use. While the two are related they almost always differ. In this case we have a best fit word, likely on the basis of the KJV, from a different language. So we have to be careful.

 

[stemelbow]

20 minutes ago, pogi said:

I don't think that Mormons in general are necessarily better than the rest of the world at living the principles of prosperity.  In fact, I often see the exact opposite of prosperity principles being lived.  I see a lot of seeking for riches before the kingdom of God, and on the other side of things, I see many (especially in my ward) who don't even believe in prosperity gospel, but who are stuck in poverty and struggle mentality which sucks the life out of faith in prosperity.  They view it as a sign of their faith and a badge of their righteousness.  "Ask and ye shall receive". 

In other words, I wouldn't expect to see greater wealth in the church.

Then we have no way of knowing whether the principles of a prosperity gospel works. 

[pogi]

11 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Then we have no way of knowing whether the principles of a prosperity gospel works. 

Well, you are right that there is no way to discern the hearts of man to judge whether it works for others.  There are no double blind studies on the subject, but we do have Alma 32.  We have the seed (the word) and it is up to each individual to test and nourish the seed for themselves and see if it bears fruit in their own personal lives.  I have scriptural evidence that it works and I have scriptural promises both ancient and modern, so one thing we cannot argue is that there is no seed.

[stemelbow]

13 minutes ago, pogi said:

Well, you are right that there is no way to discern the hearts of man to judge whether it works for others.  There are no double blind studies on the subject, but we do have Alma 32.  We have the seed (the word) and it is up to each individual to test and nourish the seed for themselves and see if it bears fruit in their own personal lives.  I have scriptural evidence that it works and I have scriptural promises both ancient and modern, so one thing we cannot argue is that there is no seed.

So you've applied the Alma 32 testing to the prosperity gospel?  How did you define it?  I guess it doesn't matter as we're all working our way down the path and we all kind see things differently, tweaked from individual to individual.  But what you report feels almost the opposite of my take on it, so I'm curious what you got. 

[pogi]

37 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

So you've applied the Alma 32 testing to the prosperity gospel?  How did you define it?  I guess it doesn't matter as we're all working our way down the path and we all kind see things differently, tweaked from individual to individual.  But what you report feels almost the opposite of my take on it, so I'm curious what you got. 

If you are asking whether I recognize the hand of the Lord prospering me in life, yes I do.  I have so many examples of how I have been prospered that it would be hard to list them all here.  

One quick example.  I grew up thinking I was stupid, I failed my way through life, barely graduating high-school.  I did not graduate with my class, but had to do "packets" to eventually earn the required minimum credits.  I had self-limiting beliefs which were profoundly influential in how I lived my life.  These beliefs were roadblocks to the principles of prosperity and personal deceptions which prevented faith.  I did not plan on going to college for these reasons.  I worked construction after my mission and settled on being a skilled laborer my whole life.  Without going into much detail, I received several spiritual promptings to further my education.  The idea terrified me.  I didn't want to heed the impressions, but I strongly felt that this is what the Lord wanted for me and my future family.  I prayed and prayed for strength and courage to follow.  I never took the ACT test for college because I wasn't planning on going, but I was somehow accepted at a college without one.  I remember taking my first class.  I started out slow.  I was terrified, but I trusted in the Lord's promptings and gave it my all, though I was afraid of embarrassing myself and failing miserably.  I aced the class.  This gave me courage and conviction to continue.  It convinced me that the Lord is looking out for me and is directing my life and prospering me.

To make a long story short, I ended up being accepted to the most competitive program in the University at the time.  They were only accepting 40 students out of 360 applicants.  I was accepted and graduated the program with a 3.8 GPA.  I now have an excellent job in international travel medicine with great benefits and respectable pay.  The Lord's hand in my life is beyond evident.  The biggest hurdle to prosperity for me was my own limiting beliefs. The Lord helped me to prove myself wrong.  I think that is how the principles of prosperity work - they help us to overcome our own false beliefs about ourselves. Those who listen and obey the Lord and believe and work in faith, can do anything that is in-line with the Lord's will - we can move the mountains in our personal lives. 

Edited March 27, 2017 by pogi

[stemelbow]

28 minutes ago, pogi said:

If you are asking whether I recognize the hand of the Lord prospering me in life, yes I do.  I have so many examples of how I have been prospered that it would be hard to list them all here.  

One quick example.  I grew up thinking I was stupid, I failed my way through life, barely graduating high-school.  I did not graduate with my class, but had to do "packets" to eventually earn the required minimum credits.  I had self-limiting beliefs which were profoundly influential in how I lived my life.  These beliefs were roadblocks to the principles of prosperity and personal deceptions which prevented faith.  I did not plan on going to college for these reasons.  I worked construction after my mission and settled on being a skilled laborer my whole life.  Without going into much detail, I received several spiritual promptings to further my education.  The idea terrified me.  I didn't want to heed the impressions, but I strongly felt that this is what the Lord wanted for me and my future family.  I prayed and prayed for strength and courage to follow.  I never took the ACT test for college because I wasn't planning on going, but I was somehow accepted at a college without one.  I remember taking my first class.  I started out slow.  I was terrified, but I trusted in the Lord's promptings and gave it my all, though I was afraid of embarrassing myself and failing miserably.  I aced the class.  This gave me courage and conviction to continue.  It convinced me that the Lord is looking out for me and is directing my life and prospering me.

To make a long story short, I ended up being accepted to the most competitive program in the University at the time.  They were only accepting 40 students out of 360 applicants.  I was accepted and graduated the program with a 3.8 GPA.  I now have an excellent job in international travel medicine with great benefits and respectable pay.  The Lord's hand in my life is beyond evident.  The biggest hurdle to prosperity for me was my own limiting beliefs. The Lord helped me to prove myself wrong.  I think that is how the principles of prosperity work - they help us to overcome our own false beliefs about ourselves. Those who listen and obey the Lord and believe and work in faith, can do anything that is in-line with the Lord's will - we can move the mountains in our personal lives. 

Ok good.  I wouldn't want it to be that I'm wanting to take away from or disagreeing with God in your life, but the story you told is something very possibly similar to one who is not a believer.  meaning a nonbeliever might have at one time struggled in school, squeaked through graduation, decided college was not for him/her, did other work, until later in life and when he/she went back to school excelled.  In this way, I'm not sure how the gospel or God's influence makes a difference. 

[pogi]

4 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Ok good.  I wouldn't want it to be that I'm wanting to take away from or disagreeing with God in your life, but the story you told is something very possibly similar to one who is not a believer.  meaning a nonbeliever might have at one time struggled in school, squeaked through graduation, decided college was not for him/her, did other work, until later in life and when he/she went back to school excelled.  In this way, I'm not sure how the gospel or God's influence makes a difference. 

As I have stated previously, the principles of prosperity are not exclusive to members of the church.  One can live righteous principles by life by the light of Christ and be prospered by the Lord.  

[stemelbow]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

As I have stated previously, the principles of prosperity are not exclusive to members of the church.  One can live righteous principles by life by the light of Christ and be prospered by the Lord.  

Well, you got me on this.  I mean anyone could be living righteous principles and not prosper too.  So I'm not sure what you are claiming anymore.  It doesn't seem like it has anything to do with the gospel.  it has to do with what people want to do< I guess. 

[pogi]

42 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I mean anyone could be living righteous principles and not prosper too.  

I don't believe that.  Live the principles, you will receive the blessing.  The problem that you and Gray are having is in your limited definition of prosper.  You are thinking of it only in terms of wealth.  That is only one manifestation of prosperity as outlined in Jacob. 

Here is what I believe and experience in my personal life:

"And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated."

"I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise."

Edited March 27, 2017 by pogi

[Gray]

14 hours ago, probablyHagoth7 said:

Then here is how you can know. :0)

The meaning/etymology of "prosper":

"To cause to succeed, render happy," from prosperus "favorable, fortunate, prosperous," perhaps literally "agreeable to one's wishes," traditionally regarded as from Old Latin pro spere "according to expectation, according to one's hope," 

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=prosper

If one's temporal needs are met while on the Lord's errand...one *is* prospering.

That's not the meaning of prosperity, and certainly not the meaning of the term "prosperity gospel"

[theplains]

On 26/03/2017 at 0:37 PM, pogi said:

Actually Mormon theology places the origins before the garden of Eden, way back to the pre-mortal existence with the plan of salvation - to become like God through obedience and faith. 

From an LDS perspective, you should be more specific ... "to become a God".

Jim