Ouagadougou Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 Hello all! With so many different religions claiming that they know they have the truth (video above), how do those in the LDS Church (who believe their church is the only true church on Earth) relate to testimonies/spiritual witnesses of other faiths claiming they also have truth? Similarly, can't an atheist be entitled in his/her mind (with the same level of certainty) in the belief that they know there is no God? If a testimony is subjective in the mind of each individual, then a Catholic's or Muslim's claim to his/her truth is the same as a member of the LDS Church, IMO. I'm interested to see how some here might feel their testimony in the LDS Church is truer or more real than other religions/faiths, without being disrespectful of course. If the LDS Church's truth claims are based mainly on gaining a testimony through faith, studying, and prayer (and not on physical evidence or science), then how does that differ from other religions that use the same exact process in gaining a testimony?
JLHPROF Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 (edited) You aren't really asking "how can someone know"? This is an issue of faith. We can only know for ourselves, and yes, sometimes other people believe they received a different answer. There may only be one actual truth, but we all have to find it for ourselves. There is no way for one person's witness to provide objective truth to another. And until God pulls back the veil there never will be. Edited March 3, 2017 by JLHPROF 3
Ouagadougou Posted March 3, 2017 Author Posted March 3, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: There is no way for one person's witness to provide objective truth to another. And until God pulls back the veil there never will be. "Yes, the Mormons were the correct answer." I love South Park! 😀 What is the point of fast and testimony meetings then? Edited March 3, 2017 by Ouagadougou
Meadowchik Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 (edited) In my opinion, those good feelings we might have are more specific than we think. Maybe a kid feels good going to church because that's his only contact with God. Maybe that mom wants to stop smoking so she can see her daughter marry in the temple. Maybe the elder does his home teaching because being a friend feels good. The BOM has neat stories and cool ideas that a person can feel good about. How do you know good feelings when applying Moroni's promise are revelation about the books origins, and not just because something associated with it is pleasant or helpful to you? In other words, our Mormon epistemology is flawed and misleading. Edited March 3, 2017 by Meadowchik 2
mfbukowski Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 1 hour ago, Ouagadougou said: Hello all! With so many different religions claiming that they know they have the truth (video above), how do those in the LDS Church (who believe their church is the only true church on Earth) relate to testimonies/spiritual witnesses of other faiths claiming they also have truth? Similarly, can't an atheist be entitled in his/her mind (with the same level of certainty) in the belief that they know there is no God? If a testimony is subjective in the mind of each individual, then a Catholic's or Muslim's claim to his/her truth is the same as a member of the LDS Church, IMO. I'm interested to see how some here might feel their testimony in the LDS Church is truer or more real than other religions/faiths, without being disrespectful of course. If the LDS Church's truth claims are based mainly on gaining a testimony through faith, studying, and prayer (and not on physical evidence or science), then how does that differ from other religions that use the same exact process in gaining a testimony? God teaches us the best path for us individually but I believe that ultimately ours does what others cannot do. It's kind of like "all roads lead to Rome" but in that analogy we ARE Rome. If you are a drunk on skid row God may lead you to the Salvation Army as your "true church" because that is the best one for you right now to bring you to Christ- it is there and there and it preaches a decent Christ centered message, and it can get you off the booze etc. But then I think God will keep you looking for more until perhaps even after death you find the fullness. That's my story and I am sticking to it. 3
JLHPROF Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 8 hours ago, Ouagadougou said: "Yes, the Mormons were the correct answer." I love South Park! 😀 What is the point of fast and testimony meetings then? So that those who hear the testimony can feel of the same spirit that gave you your witness and act according to their own faith. Romans 10: 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. D&C 46:13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world. 14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful. Hearing other's testimonies is important. 1
snowflake Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 10 hours ago, Ouagadougou said: Hello all! With so many different religions claiming that they know they have the truth (video above), how do those in the LDS Church (who believe their church is the only true church on Earth) relate to testimonies/spiritual witnesses of other faiths claiming they also have truth? Similarly, can't an atheist be entitled in his/her mind (with the same level of certainty) in the belief that they know there is no God? If a testimony is subjective in the mind of each individual, then a Catholic's or Muslim's claim to his/her truth is the same as a member of the LDS Church, IMO. I'm interested to see how some here might feel their testimony in the LDS Church is truer or more real than other religions/faiths, without being disrespectful of course. If the LDS Church's truth claims are based mainly on gaining a testimony through faith, studying, and prayer (and not on physical evidence or science), then how does that differ from other religions that use the same exact process in gaining a testimony? Great video! Wow, how is one to discover "truth"? What is truth? According to the people interviewed in this video "truth" is a feeling. I would disagree. Pilate asked Jesus: “What is truth?” retorted Pilate. With this he went out again to the Jews gathered there and said, “I find no basis for a charge against him. Well we have the answer to that question, a direct quote from Jesus, John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. He also states in John 18:37 that “You are a king, then!” said Pilate. Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.” So Jesus, the living God in flesh, is Truth, not feelings, emotions or churches. 1
JLHPROF Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 14 minutes ago, snowflake said: Great video! Wow, how is one to discover "truth"? What is truth? According to the people interviewed in this video "truth" is a feeling. I would disagree. Pilate asked Jesus: “What is truth?” retorted Pilate. With this he went out again to the Jews gathered there and said, “I find no basis for a charge against him. Well we have the answer to that question, a direct quote from Jesus, John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. He also states in John 18:37 that “You are a king, then!” said Pilate. Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.” So Jesus, the living God in flesh, is Truth, not feelings, emotions or churches. True is an interesting term. Before it meant "accurate" it used to mean ""faith, faithfulness, fidelity, loyalty; veracity, quality of being true; pledge, covenant" But if we take our current meaning as in "a correct fact", what piece of information or truth does Christ represent? How exactly would you say Christ is "truth"?
CV75 Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 11 hours ago, Ouagadougou said: Hello all! With so many different religions claiming that they know they have the truth (video above), how do those in the LDS Church (who believe their church is the only true church on Earth) relate to testimonies/spiritual witnesses of other faiths claiming they also have truth? Similarly, can't an atheist be entitled in his/her mind (with the same level of certainty) in the belief that they know there is no God? If a testimony is subjective in the mind of each individual, then a Catholic's or Muslim's claim to his/her truth is the same as a member of the LDS Church, IMO. I'm interested to see how some here might feel their testimony in the LDS Church is truer or more real than other religions/faiths, without being disrespectful of course. If the LDS Church's truth claims are based mainly on gaining a testimony through faith, studying, and prayer (and not on physical evidence or science), then how does that differ from other religions that use the same exact process in gaining a testimony? I think everyone is entitled to feel certain in his belief that he knows such-and-such, whether secular or spiritual. With regards to religious themes, my testimony is truer or more real to me than another person’s simply because I’m the only one who has it. I may agree with, relate to or accept another person's testimony depending on what he says or does, or how it “resonates” with me. But I would never frame my testimony in terms of “I am certain in my belief that I know such-and-such.” Spirituality is more integrated with the whole than that, so I simply say, “I know.” Spiritual processes are as real and universal among human beings as the digestive, gestational and any other biological or mental process, so it is only natural that religions will appear to be very similar in applying such principles as faith, study and prayer. I see a difference between “the only true and living church” and “having truth,” the first being a very specific claim and the second more general and relative, allowing room for agreement among those who may disagree on specifics. In general, “there are save two churches only,” where virtually all religions have something universally good to offer their adherents that prepares or draws them to advance in a “fullness” of what “the church of the Lamb of God” has to offer.
stemelbow Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 11 hours ago, Ouagadougou said: Hello all! With so many different religions claiming that they know they have the truth (video above), how do those in the LDS Church (who believe their church is the only true church on Earth) relate to testimonies/spiritual witnesses of other faiths claiming they also have truth? Similarly, can't an atheist be entitled in his/her mind (with the same level of certainty) in the belief that they know there is no God? If a testimony is subjective in the mind of each individual, then a Catholic's or Muslim's claim to his/her truth is the same as a member of the LDS Church, IMO. I'm interested to see how some here might feel their testimony in the LDS Church is truer or more real than other religions/faiths, without being disrespectful of course. If the LDS Church's truth claims are based mainly on gaining a testimony through faith, studying, and prayer (and not on physical evidence or science), then how does that differ from other religions that use the same exact process in gaining a testimony? To each their own. Calling one's truth when it comes to spiritual matters "the truth" in some absolute sense feels meaningless to me. Whatever works, baby. I think tons of paths are leading people to Christ. I mean in a sense it's one path, but from our clouded perspective it looks like varying paths. 1
Tacenda Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 (edited) This reminds me of a conversation on my ward/neighborhood's private FB page yesterday. Neighbor #1 posts...The Jehovah's witnesses are out. They knocked on my door multiple times until I answered. Neighbor #2: They were handing out bibles at the schools yesterday. Neighbor #3: I'll just leave a stack of BOMs on the porch. 😉 Neighbor #4: You are funny! Ask them for a referral, so you can visit some of their members. Neighbor #5 (me): I can imagine this same conversation with non members when the LDS missionaries are in the neighborhood. I was afraid to comment like that and constantly deleted my comments, but decided to leave this last one up. But isn't it so true that the JW's and the LDS each "know" their church is the true church. Edited March 3, 2017 by Tacenda 3
snowflake Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 34 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: True is an interesting term. Before it meant "accurate" it used to mean ""faith, faithfulness, fidelity, loyalty; veracity, quality of being true; pledge, covenant" But if we take our current meaning as in "a correct fact", what piece of information or truth does Christ represent? How exactly would you say Christ is "truth"? Great question...not sure how to answer that but will give it a try....Well one way the bible describes God is love another way God is described as being perfect, Christ is perfect love, the creator of the universe and everything in it. The bible also tells us Christ is the fullness of the Deity in bodily form. So I think Christ is the perfect manifestation of God, Love, honesty, integrity, mercy, grace, kindness wrapped up in flesh....truth. Colossians 2: 6 So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, 7 rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness. 8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces[a] of this world rather than on Christ. 9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form..... 1 Corinthians 13 is another great description of Christ's love 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
JLHPROF Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 5 minutes ago, snowflake said: Great question...not sure how to answer that but will give it a try....Well one way the bible describes God is love another way God is described as being perfect, Christ is perfect love, the creator of the universe and everything in it. The bible also tells us Christ is the fullness of the Deity in bodily form. So I think Christ is the perfect manifestation of God, Love, honesty, integrity, mercy, grace, kindness wrapped up in flesh....truth. Colossians 2: 6 So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, 7 rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness. 8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces[a] of this world rather than on Christ. 9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form..... 1 Corinthians 13 is another great description of Christ's love 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. So complete this sentence: Christ is truth because his existence teaches us "______________________". What truth is shown through Christ? Is it that "Christ is truth because his existence teaches us that God loves us?" Is that how Christ is the truth?
Ahab Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 I know what I know about God, our Father, from what God has told me, and sometimes what other people tell me inspires me to ask him what he thinks and how he feels about what other people have said or are doing. That's the process for me, in a nutshell. And I trust what God tells me a heck of a lot more than I trust what other people tell me. Trusting our Father more than my fellow brothers and/or sisters.
snowflake Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 12 hours ago, Ouagadougou said: Hello all! With so many different religions claiming that they know they have the truth (video above), how do those in the LDS Church (who believe their church is the only true church on Earth) relate to testimonies/spiritual witnesses of other faiths claiming they also have truth? Similarly, can't an atheist be entitled in his/her mind (with the same level of certainty) in the belief that they know there is no God? If a testimony is subjective in the mind of each individual, then a Catholic's or Muslim's claim to his/her truth is the same as a member of the LDS Church, IMO. I'm interested to see how some here might feel their testimony in the LDS Church is truer or more real than other religions/faiths, without being disrespectful of course. If the LDS Church's truth claims are based mainly on gaining a testimony through faith, studying, and prayer (and not on physical evidence or science), then how does that differ from other religions that use the same exact process in gaining a testimony? 5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. Interesting how the LDS always equate "wisdom" with "truth". If you read the scripture carefully there is no mention of truth. I'm still looking for the verse in the bible that says something about praying to know "truth"..... The Apostle Paul never told potential converts to "pray to know the truth". He reasoned with them and asked them to search the scriptures to see if these things were true. Acts 17: 10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.
Ouagadougou Posted March 3, 2017 Author Posted March 3, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, JLHPROF said: So that those who hear the testimony can feel of the same spirit that gave you your witness and act according to their own faith. Romans 10: 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. D&C 46:13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world. 14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful. Hearing other's testimonies is important. If you were to close your eyes and listen to some of these testimonies, it would be hard to distinguish which ones were LDS and which ones were not. Many sound exactly the same... Edited March 3, 2017 by Ouagadougou
JLHPROF Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 Just now, Ouagadougou said: If you were to close your eyes and listen to me of these testimonies, it would be hard to distinguish which ones were LDS and which ones were not (when they were just talking about their feelings). I would agree.
snowflake Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: So complete this sentence: Christ is truth because his existence teaches us "______________________". What truth is shown through Christ? Is it that "Christ is truth because his existence teaches us that God loves us?" Is that how Christ is the truth? Truth is more than a moral guide, Jesus never said he would model the truth, teach the truth or show the truth. Truth is more than "the state of being true". Truth is reality, and is far more than just facts. Truth is rooted in God's Word. Jesus is the path to God and He is God, he is what you experience when you are with God.
snowflake Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 1 hour ago, Ahab said: I know what I know about God, our Father, from what God has told me, and sometimes what other people tell me inspires me to ask him what he thinks and how he feels about what other people have said or are doing. That's the process for me, in a nutshell. And I trust what God tells me a heck of a lot more than I trust what other people tell me. Trusting our Father more than my fellow brothers and/or sisters. How would you distinguish which one of the religions in the video is true without your feelings?
pogi Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, snowflake said: Great question...not sure how to answer that but will give it a try....Well one way the bible describes God is love another way God is described as being perfect, Christ is perfect love, the creator of the universe and everything in it. The bible also tells us Christ is the fullness of the Deity in bodily form. So I think Christ is the perfect manifestation of God, Love, honesty, integrity, mercy, grace, kindness wrapped up in flesh....truth. Colossians 2: 6 So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, 7 rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness. 8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces[a] of this world rather than on Christ. 9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form..... 1 Corinthians 13 is another great description of Christ's love 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. 1. Truth is not a feeling (not felt). 2. Truth is Christ. 3. Christ is God. 4. God is love. 5. Love is a feeling (you feel love/d). Which one of these does not belong? Edited March 3, 2017 by pogi
Oliblish Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 10 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: If you were to close your eyes and listen to some of these testimonies, it would be hard to distinguish which ones were LDS and which ones were not. Many sound exactly the same... I agree. I think the video would be much better if they didn't display the name of the person's religion at the bottom of the screen during the testimony.
bluebell Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 1 hour ago, snowflake said: 5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. Interesting how the LDS always equate "wisdom" with "truth". If you read the scripture carefully there is no mention of truth. I'm still looking for the verse in the bible that says something about praying to know "truth"..... The Apostle Paul never told potential converts to "pray to know the truth". He reasoned with them and asked them to search the scriptures to see if these things were true. Acts 17: 10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few. You have to remember that the NT wasn't written in english. The greek word translated as 'wisdom' in Sophia and it means 'wisdom, insight, and intelligence.' It makes no sense to attempt to argue that that verse isn't teaching that we should ask God for spiritual knowledge. 3
mfbukowski Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 4 hours ago, snowflake said: Great video! Wow, how is one to discover "truth"? What is truth? According to the people interviewed in this video "truth" is a feeling. I would disagree. Pilate asked Jesus: “What is truth?” retorted Pilate. With this he went out again to the Jews gathered there and said, “I find no basis for a charge against him. Well we have the answer to that question, a direct quote from Jesus, John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. He also states in John 18:37 that “You are a king, then!” said Pilate. Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.” So Jesus, the living God in flesh, is Truth, not feelings, emotions or churches. How do you know that?? How do you know you are "saved"? Because some old book full of legends says "I am the word of God?" Deep down you know that BECAUSE God has told you so, to follow the Bible and that you are saved. Deep down inside of you the spirit has told you you are on the right path that God wants you to be on. You are no different than we are. It's not logic that has told you that- it's not history. You could have been a physical witness to the crucifixion and not known that. Probably hundreds of people or more WERE physical witness to those events and went on to persecute the followers of Jesus. YOU KNOW BECAUSE YOU HAVE A WITNESS that God loves you and that you should follow the Bible deep inside of you. No different. 3
mfbukowski Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 1 hour ago, snowflake said: 5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. Interesting how the LDS always equate "wisdom" with "truth". If you read the scripture carefully there is no mention of truth. I'm still looking for the verse in the bible that says something about praying to know "truth"..... The Apostle Paul never told potential converts to "pray to know the truth". He reasoned with them and asked them to search the scriptures to see if these things were true. Acts 17: 10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few. Then please, by all means, define "truth" for us. How can Jesus, a person, be "truth"? If I say "That car is red" and it IS red- is the car Jesus?
snowflake Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 1 hour ago, pogi said: 1. Truth is not a feeling (not felt). 2. Truth is Christ. 3. Christ is God. 4. God is love. 5. Love is a feeling (you feel love/d). Which one of these does not belong? There are three different types of "Love" in the Greek as I'm sure you are aware of. Eros is a Greek term which actually means desire and longing. Agape love, This is a special term which represents the divine-love of the Lord towards his Son Jesus Christ, the human beings and all believers.Philos love. This is a unique kind of love like the one you have for a companion or pal. It refers to loving one another just like your brother or sister. This love is for a pal who is really close and dear to us and it is characterized by various different shared experiences between two people. Love can be much more than just a feeling.
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