Spiritual Witnesses

[pogi]

2 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Love can be much more than just a feeling.

True, but the only way to know it is to experience it (feel it)...to let it penetrate your inner heart, to not be "past feeling" and "hard hearted".

[snowflake]

46 minutes ago, bluebell said:

You have to remember that the NT wasn't written in english.  The greek word translated as 'wisdom' in Sophia and it means 'wisdom, insight, and intelligence.'  It makes no sense to attempt to argue that that verse isn't teaching that we should ask God for spiritual knowledge.

I absolutely believe you should pray to God for wisdom.  I'm just saying that nowhere in the Bible are we told to pray to know "truth".  God absolutely inspires us through the holy spirit, I just think that the LDS equate a felling for the holy ghost. Why else does this video exist. They all claim to have the truth based on a felling they have. Just like the LDS. Please explain why your feeling of truth is superior to the feelings the muslims, the LDS offshoots, and other groups represented in the video. Which one is correct?

[snowflake]

1 minute ago, pogi said:

True, but the only way to know it is to experience it (feel it)...to let it penetrate your inner heart, to not be "past feeling" and "hard hearted".

How do you know what truth was without your feeling? Is it possible? I just don't see emotions as a valid test for truth based on the testimonies of the many groups in the video.  

[snowflake]

58 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

How do you know that??

How do you know you are "saved"?

Because some old book full of legends says "I am the word of God?"

Deep down you know that BECAUSE God has told you so, to follow the Bible and that you are saved.  Deep down inside of you the spirit has told you you are on the right path that God wants you to be on.

You are no different than we are.

It's not logic that has told you that- it's not history.  You could have been a physical witness to the crucifixion and not known that.  Probably hundreds of people or more WERE physical witness to those events and went on to persecute the followers of Jesus.

YOU KNOW BECAUSE YOU HAVE A WITNESS that God loves you and that you should follow the Bible deep inside of you.

No different.

Interesting take and I think there is a bit of "truth" to he beginning your statement. I studied the bible for years before I had any kind of "spiritual witness" if that is what you want to call it.  But I very slowly learned to trust the bible itself, starting with it's history, it's archeology, it's intricate details and it's prophecies, written hundreds of years before they came to pass. I studied the integrity of the bible's design and who Christ claimed to be. I asked God to reveal himself to me through his Word.   

So it does boil down to "some old book full of legends that says "I am the word of God?" for me.  More than anything I know. I know my heart is desperately wicked and emotions should not be trusted. Shoot I had a feeling that I "Knew" was the holy ghost (formerly when I was a Mormon) that told me I should sleep with my girlfriend before I was married.  How is that to be trusted? How would I know if it is really the holy ghost or something more sinister? It felt exactly like what I though was the holy ghost.   

Jeremiah 7"9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

[pogi]

1 hour ago, snowflake said:

How do you know what truth was without your feeling? Is it possible?

You simply can't know what truth/love/God is without feeling it/him. To say that you can know love without feeling it is like saying that you can know what salt tastes like without tasting it?  Is it possible?  No.  All descriptions fall short.  You only know it through experience. 

I don't discount the testimonies of anybody in the video.  Their testimonies are just as valid and limited/imperfect as mine.  Our understanding of TRUTH is limited to mortal perspective and will vary from person to person.  Our understanding of TRUTH is unwhole as we all see through a glass darkly.  I don't believe that absolute knowledge of absolute truth is possible in this life, but the more we follow the feelings of conscience and love, the more our perspective will be enlightened.  God guides each individual in a way which is appropriate for them individually.  If you are "past feeling" then you are guaranteed to be off track with the Lord.   

[pogi]

1 hour ago, snowflake said:

How is that to be trusted? How would I know if it is really the holy ghost or something more sinister? It felt exactly like what I though was the holy ghost.   

Jeremiah 7"9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Pray for the gift of discernment.  Seek it in faith.  The more you taste of the spirit, the more you can distinguish it from teenage lust, just like you can learn to distinguish sugar from artificial sweeteners. 

Consider the parable of the sower, it's all about the heart brother!  That is where the seed (the word of God) is experienced - in the heart not the head. The heart is where true conversion takes place - not the head.

Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it.
Proverbs 4:23

Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight.
Proverbs 3:5-6 

You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.
Jeremiah 29:13 

Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me.
Psalm 51:10 

And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Ezekiel 36:26

Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
Matthew 5:8 

For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
Romans 10:10

Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
Hebrews 10:22 

 

Edited March 3, 2017 by pogi

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, snowflake said:

I absolutely believe you should pray to God for wisdom.  I'm just saying that nowhere in the Bible are we told to pray to know "truth".  God absolutely inspires us through the holy spirit, I just think that the LDS equate a felling for the holy ghost. Why else does this video exist. They all claim to have the truth based on a felling they have. Just like the LDS. Please explain why your feeling of truth is superior to the feelings the muslims, the LDS offshoots, and other groups represented in the video. Which one is correct?

If you believe that you should pray to know spiritual knowledge (which is the same thing as praying to know if Christ truly is the Son of God or if the BOM is truly God's word, etc), then you and LDS agree.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, snowflake said:

Interesting take and I think there is a bit of "truth" to he beginning your statement. I studied the bible for years before I had any kind of "spiritual witness" if that is what you want to call it.  But I very slowly learned to trust the bible itself, starting with it's history, it's archeology, it's intricate details and it's prophecies, written hundreds of years before they came to pass. I studied the integrity of the bible's design and who Christ claimed to be. I asked God to reveal himself to me through his Word.   

So it does boil down to "some old book full of legends that says "I am the word of God?" for me.  More than anything I know. I know my heart is desperately wicked and emotions should not be trusted. Shoot I had a feeling that I "Knew" was the holy ghost (formerly when I was a Mormon) that told me I should sleep with my girlfriend before I was married.  How is that to be trusted? How would I know if it is really the holy ghost or something more sinister? It felt exactly like what I though was the holy ghost.   

Jeremiah 7"9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

I think relying on the Bible is a good control measure for those who lack the ability to distinguish their desire to break the commandments from their conscience or the Holy Ghost. It is better than nothing and an answer to a desire to believe and a particle of faith, and will lead the faithful to a fulness of the gospel of the Lamb, or the plain and precious parts that were taken away from it.

A hard heart cannot be trusted, but a healed heart is a blessing of the Lord (see Matthew 13: 15; John 12: 40; Acts 28: 27). Aside from the crutches of history, archaeology and Bible scholars, fundamentally you are still trusting your heart to receive the teachings of the Bible, and hopefully you will discover that the Lord speaks His word in several ways and there is more ahead for you.--as the Bible teaches.

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, snowflake said:

Interesting take and I think there is a bit of "truth" to he beginning your statement. I studied the bible for years before I had any kind of "spiritual witness" if that is what you want to call it.  But I very slowly learned to trust the bible itself, starting with it's history, it's archeology, it's intricate details and it's prophecies, written hundreds of years before they came to pass. I studied the integrity of the bible's design and who Christ claimed to be. I asked God to reveal himself to me through his Word.   

So it does boil down to "some old book full of legends that says "I am the word of God?" for me.  More than anything I know. I know my heart is desperately wicked and emotions should not be trusted. Shoot I had a feeling that I "Knew" was the holy ghost (formerly when I was a Mormon) that told me I should sleep with my girlfriend before I was married.  How is that to be trusted? How would I know if it is really the holy ghost or something more sinister? It felt exactly like what I though was the holy ghost.   

Jeremiah 7"9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

But it looks like you trust your heart anyway.  Who can know if you are right?

You asked God to reveal himself through his Word but the heart is deceitful, and even so it is a book of legends that says it is the Word of God FOR YOU.

A bit contradictory if you ask me.  You are still relying on your deceitful heart.

Did you do the same in picking your spouse?  Did you trust your deceitful heart in picking a church or profession?  You never pray about anything?

[boblloyd91]

10 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

But it looks like you trust your heart anyway.  Who can know if you are right?

You asked God to reveal himself through his Word but the heart is deceitful, and even so it is a book of legends that says it is the Word of God FOR YOU.

A bit contradictory if you ask me.  You are still relying on your deceitful heart.

Did you do the same in picking your spouse?  Did you trust your deceitful heart in picking a church or profession?  You never pray about anything?

There really is no way around emotions in regards to spirituality. Furthermore I never understood the disdain some of our critics have in regards to praying about truth. Granted we can sometimes make up our own answers according to our desires, but wouldn't praying to God actually show we weren't trusting our own hearts, but a higher power we have faith knows more than us? By the way the scriptural reference Snowflake gave is Jeremiah 17:9 not Jeremiah 7:9. And the focus of it is not trusting in the arm of the flesh (see four verses above) not the inappropriateness of praying for help as our critics are saying. That's why if one is going to quote scripture, at least know the context rather than merely proof texting...

[Ahab]

19 hours ago, snowflake said:

How would you distinguish which one of the religions in the video is true without your feelings?

I'm not interested in imagining myself to be in that situation because I like the fact that I do have feelings.

[snowflake]

On ‎3‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 9:51 AM, boblloyd91 said:

There really is no way around emotions in regards to spirituality. Furthermore I never understood the disdain some of our critics have in regards to praying about truth. Granted we can sometimes make up our own answers according to our desires, but wouldn't praying to God actually show we weren't trusting our own hearts, but a higher power we have faith knows more than us? By the way the scriptural reference Snowflake gave is Jeremiah 17:9 not Jeremiah 7:9. And the focus of it is not trusting in the arm of the flesh (see four verses above) not the inappropriateness of praying for help as our critics are saying. That's why if one is going to quote scripture, at least know the context rather than merely proof texting...

So obviously everyone "believes their testimony to be true" in this video.  If we assume that is the case, that they are sincere, and the Holy Ghost has told them that their particular religion is correct..... am I to assume that they are all true?   Isn't this the problem Joseph was praying about in the grove?  The muslims claim there is only one god Allah, LDS claim there are a council of gods with Heavenly father at the head, the Christians claim only one God...Buddhists no god..JW's believe jesus is Michael the archangel .......am I to assume that they are all correct? Superficially they are similar but fundamentally they are in absolute contradiction with one another.  They cannot all be correct but I keep hearing on this thread that If I would pray about it God would lead me to the correct religion? What about when God tells people that the LDS religion is wrong?

[snowflake]

On ‎3‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 10:59 PM, mfbukowski said:

But it looks like you trust your heart anyway.  Who can know if you are right?

You asked God to reveal himself through his Word but the heart is deceitful, and even so it is a book of legends that says it is the Word of God FOR YOU.

A bit contradictory if you ask me.  You are still relying on your deceitful heart.

Did you do the same in picking your spouse?  Did you trust your deceitful heart in picking a church or profession?  You never pray about anything?

Your method of telling "truth" is contradictory, all of the people in the video claim their religion to be "true" based on the same test the LDS use. Are they all "true", Is truth dependent on the individual?  Why would the LDS god witness to another person that Allah and Islam are correct when they are two completely different gods?  Islam as does Christianity insist there is only one God. Both cannot be correct.  

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, snowflake said:

Your method of telling "truth" is contradictory, all of the people in the video claim their religion to be "true" based on the same test the LDS use. Are they all "true", Is truth dependent on the individual?  Why would the LDS god witness to another person that Allah and Islam are correct when they are two completely different gods?  Islam as does Christianity insist there is only one God. Both cannot be correct.  

Of course they can. There is one God known by different names and different paths to the same end. It's ok, you will learn. Follow your heart and you will learn.

[snowflake]

3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Of course they can. There is one God known by different names and different paths to the same end. It's ok, you will learn. Follow your heart and you will learn.

It would be so much easier on everyone if that is what God had told Joseph in the intro the BOM.........don't worry Joseph, just pick any religion....they all lead to me. They're basically all the same. Don't worry about the claims of Jesus....that whole I am the way the truth and the life....... I was just kidding. All the holy books are the same....outdated and boring.....don't bother with the BOM either.....same old stuff. Jesus doesn't really matter either.....Muhammad's teachings are basically the same right?

[mfbukowski]

47 minutes ago, snowflake said:

It would be so much easier on everyone if that is what God had told Joseph in the intro the BOM.........don't worry Joseph, just pick any religion....they all lead to me. They're basically all the same. Don't worry about the claims of Jesus....that whole I am the way the truth and the life....... I was just kidding. All the holy books are the same....outdated and boring.....don't bother with the BOM either.....same old stuff. Jesus doesn't really matter either.....Muhammad's teachings are basically the same right?

OK smarty pants I was being nice.

Define truth.

[Ahab]

27 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

OK smarty pants I was being nice.

Define truth.

He already did. He said Jesus is the truth, and Jesus did too.

Next question, please. And let's try to wrap this up as quickly as we can.

[hope_for_things]

On 3/2/2017 at 10:38 PM, Ouagadougou said:

 

Hello all! 

With so many different religions claiming that they know they have the truth (video above), how do those in the LDS Church (who believe their church is the only true church on Earth) relate to testimonies/spiritual witnesses of other faiths claiming they also have truth?  Similarly, can't an atheist be entitled in his/her mind (with the same level of certainty) in the belief that they know there is no God?  

If a testimony is subjective in the mind of each individual, then a Catholic's or Muslim's claim to his/her truth is the same as a member of the LDS Church, IMO.  I'm interested to see how some here might feel their testimony in the LDS Church is truer or more real than other religions/faiths, without being disrespectful of course.   

If the LDS Church's truth claims are based mainly on gaining a testimony through faith, studying, and prayer (and not on physical evidence or science), then how does that differ from other religions that use the same exact process in gaining a testimony?    

Two things.  Firstly, we should respect and honor everyone's personal convictions recognizing that spiritual experiences are personal, powerful and sacred to individuals.  

Secondly, we need to learn more about how our brains work, and we need to learn critical thinking skills.  As we learn how our brains work, we can understand better how our bias influences our beliefs.  We can also understand better when that bias impacts our thinking and lead us to errors of logic.  This is where critical thinking skills are so important.  This should give us a great deal of humility as we recognize just how flawed and biased our thinking is a on a regular basis.  We should try to be open to new information and new understandings based on evidence (intellectual, emotional and spiritual).  

All of this should point us back to the core principles of ethics that are foundational to civilized society.  

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

He already did. He said Jesus is the truth, and Jesus did too.

Next question, please. And let's try to wrap this up as quickly as we can.

I think that's a little insufficient.  So the truth that you are reading this is Jesus?

If you want to "wrap it up" , just stop replying for him.

The true answer to every question in science is "Jesus"?  Every true statement about history is "Jesus"?  I think there are problems with this view.

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I think that's a little insufficient.  So the truth that you are reading this is Jesus?

If you want to "wrap it up" , just stop replying for him.

The true answer to every question in science is "Jesus"?  Every true statement about history is "Jesus"?  I think there are problems with this view.

The truth is that there are multiple true answers to the question of what is truth. And I don't mind sharing at least some of those answers by sharing at least some of the truth.

So the answer to your questions are (1) yes but more precisely Jesus is helping me know what any and all truth is, (2) ditto to above, a d (3) ditto to above.

And if you have any other questions then you should ask our Father in the name of Jesus.

[snowflake]

8 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I think that's a little insufficient.  So the truth that you are reading this is Jesus?

If you want to "wrap it up" , just stop replying for him.

The true answer to every question in science is "Jesus"?  Every true statement about history is "Jesus"?  I think there are problems with this view.

Truth is more than a moral guide, Jesus never said he would model the truth, teach the truth or show the truth. Truth is more than "the state of being true". Truth is reality, and is far more than just facts.  Truth is rooted in God's Word.  Jesus is the path to God and He is God, he is what you experience when you are with God. The gospel of John is full of claims of Jesus being truth, teaching truth, being full of grace and truth. John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. And again Jesus claims to be the truth. John 14:6. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 

I would say very difficult to clearly define, but the Gospel of John gives an excellent account. It's like saying, define God....not an easy task.

 I was unable to tell if you were serious earlier when you said.

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

"There is one God known by different names and different paths to the same end"

I've had multiple discussions on this board alone how the LDS god is different from the Christian God and different from the Muslim god Allah. What did you mean by your statement above?

[Ahab]

2 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Truth is more than a moral guide, Jesus never said he would model the truth, teach the truth or show the truth. Truth is more than "the state of being true". Truth is reality, and is far more than just facts.  Truth is rooted in God's Word.  Jesus is the path to God and He is God, he is what you experience when you are with God. The gospel of John is full of claims of Jesus being truth, teaching truth, being full of grace and truth. John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. And again Jesus claims to be the truth. John 14:6. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 

I would say very difficult to clearly define, but the Gospel of John gives an excellent account. It's like saying, define God....not an easy task.

It is easy when you know how and realize there are multiple contexts for understanding who and what God is.

It would take forever to do it, but it would still be easy with sufficient knowledge.

[boblloyd91]

9 hours ago, snowflake said:

So obviously everyone "believes their testimony to be true" in this video.  If we assume that is the case, that they are sincere, and the Holy Ghost has told them that their particular religion is correct..... am I to assume that they are all true?   Isn't this the problem Joseph was praying about in the grove?  The muslims claim there is only one god Allah, LDS claim there are a council of gods with Heavenly father at the head, the Christians claim only one God...Buddhists no god..JW's believe jesus is Michael the archangel .......am I to assume that they are all correct? Superficially they are similar but fundamentally they are in absolute contradiction with one another.  They cannot all be correct but I keep hearing on this thread that If I would pray about it God would lead me to the correct religion? What about when God tells people that the LDS religion is wrong?

But the obtaining of an LDS testimony also requires a faith and trust in Christ. Moroni 10 is very explicit about this. I'm not going to pretend to know why different people get different answers. This used to bother me to no end, but I believe in Christ's promise in Matthew 7, about seeking, finding and knocking. Why people get different answers I don't know. I agree our feelings alone aren't enough, however belief ultimately is not just a matter of the mind but the heart. I'm sure there are atheist or agnostic bible scholars that know more than you or I about the Bible but don't believe in their heart, and therefore don't have a saving faith. 

[Meadowchik]

On 03/03/2017 at 8:31 AM, mfbukowski said:

God teaches us the best path for us individually but I believe that ultimately ours does what others cannot do.

It's kind of like "all roads lead to Rome" but in that analogy we ARE Rome.

If you are a drunk on skid row God may lead you to the Salvation Army as your "true church" because that is the best one for you right now to bring you to Christ- it is there and there and it preaches a decent Christ centered message, and it can get you off the booze etc.

But then I think God will keep you looking for more until perhaps even after death you find the fullness.

That's my story and I am sticking to it.

Maybe you just have a Roman nose

[Meadowchik]

13 hours ago, boblloyd91 said:

But the obtaining of an LDS testimony also requires a faith and trust in Christ. Moroni 10 is very explicit about this. I'm not going to pretend to know why different people get different answers. This used to bother me to no end, but I believe in Christ's promise in Matthew 7, about seeking, finding and knocking. Why people get different answers I don't know. I agree our feelings alone aren't enough, however belief ultimately is not just a matter of the mind but the heart. I'm sure there are atheist or agnostic bible scholars that know more than you or I about the Bible but don't believe in their heart, and therefore don't have a saving faith. 

There can be atheist and agnostic individuals who go out on a limb, who step into the darkness in hope that Good and Truth and Light will prevail, and so they obey what goodness, truth, and light that they know with all their might.  I think that God would be more accepting of such faith than you might expect.