Oliblish Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 16 hours ago, Ahab said: A little bit here and a little bit there, line upon line and precept upon precept, until we all come to be like our Savior and know him as well as he knows us. It's just that some people give up on putting the pieces together to become as intelligent as he is. Do you realize that all of those things about the elephant were true, just as there are a lot of things that are true about God, our Father, too? Ok, I can see how the elephant analogy kind of fits in. There are good and true things in lots of churches even though we don't agree on everything. But how are we different then? Are we just members of another church that has some partial truths like all of the other churches? This is not what I hear at testimony meeting. Everyone says they know they are in the right church because of the spiritual witness they have received. Others only have small pieces of the truth but we have the complete picture - the whole elephant. But why don't others recognize that they only see a portion of the truth when they think they have it all figured out? Should we think that we would recognize it if we were in their position? Are we in their position? It is easy to see the error in others thinking but difficult for us to admit that we really don't have any reason to believe that we know more than anyone else.
Ahab Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 3 minutes ago, Oliblish said: Ok, I can see how the elephant analogy kind of fits in. There are good and true things in lots of churches even though we don't agree on everything. But how are we different then? Are we just members of another church that has some partial truths like all of the other churches? This is not what I hear at testimony meeting. Everyone says they know they are in the right church because of the spiritual witness they have received. Others only have small pieces of the truth but we have the complete picture - the whole elephant. But why don't others recognize that they only see a portion of the truth when they think they have it all figured out? Should we think that we would recognize it if we were in their position? Are we in their position? It is easy to see the error in others thinking but difficult for us to admit that we really don't have any reason to believe that we know more than anyone else. I haven't heard anyone in our Church say we know absolutely everything about God and the next stage of our existence, or even all we knew before we came here, but we do know more than anyone else in this mortal realm. The difference between what we know and what others know is huge, with most other people focused mainly on trying to tell us we don't know what we know, mainly because they just don't believe us, rather than trying to learn for themselves as we do.
pogi Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Oliblish said: Ok, I can see how the elephant analogy kind of fits in. There are good and true things in lots of churches even though we don't agree on everything. But how are we different then? Are we just members of another church that has some partial truths like all of the other churches? This is not what I hear at testimony meeting. Everyone says they know they are in the right church because of the spiritual witness they have received. Others only have small pieces of the truth but we have the complete picture - the whole elephant. But why don't others recognize that they only see a portion of the truth when they think they have it all figured out? Should we think that we would recognize it if we were in their position? Are we in their position? It is easy to see the error in others thinking but difficult for us to admit that we really don't have any reason to believe that we know more than anyone else. The analogy plays on the idea that we are all blind to the whole picture (see through a glass darkly). Not even Mormonism claims to have the "complete picture" as we believe that there are many things that will yet be revealed which pertain to the kingdom of God (A of F 9). Other people also claim to be in the "right" church because of the spiritual witness they have received, and other people may not be wrong. They may be in the right church for them personally at that particular time. It may be difficult for some Mormons to accept the testimony of other faiths as it seems to contradict our own, but when you understand that there are only 2 churches - The Church of the Lamb of God and the Church of the Devil, then you start to understand that the testimonies of other's may not be contrary at all. It is not only Mormons who belong the the church of the Lamb of God after all, but all those who heed the spirit or light of Christ. We believe that all people who heed that light will be led to the gates of baptism in this life or the next, so we CAN'T deny that members of other faiths might indeed have spiritual witnesses that they are where the Lord wants them for reasons known to him. Edited March 8, 2017 by pogi
Ahab Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 30 minutes ago, pogi said: It is not only Mormons who belong the the church of the Lamb of God after all, but all those who heed the spirit or light of Christ. We believe that all people who heed that light will be led to the gates of baptism in this life or the next, so we CAN'T deny that members of other faiths might indeed have spiritual witnesses that they are where the Lord wants them for reasons known to him. Until they are properly baptized they are not members of our Lord's church, though. They may know a lot, and may accept the witness of the Spirit, but until they go through the door of baptism then they are not in (if they are of the age and otherwise accountable for their sins). Not that they can't be good Christians, to the best of their knowledge, but because baptism is still a requirement.
Oliblish Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 54 minutes ago, pogi said: The analogy plays on the idea that we are all blind to the whole picture (see through a glass darkly). Not even Mormonism claims to have the "complete picture" as we believe that there are many things that will yet be revealed which pertain to the kingdom of God (A of F 9). Other people also claim to be in the "right" church because of the spiritual witness they have received, and other people may not be wrong. They may be in the right church for them personally at that particular time. It may be difficult for some Mormons to accept the testimony of other faiths as it seems to contradict our own, but when you understand that there are only 2 churches - The Church of the Lamb of God and the Church of the Devil, then you start to understand that the testimonies of other's may not be contrary at all. It is not only Mormons who belong the the church of the Lamb of God after all, but all those who heed the spirit or light of Christ. We believe that all people who heed that light will be led to the gates of baptism in this life or the next, so we CAN'T deny that members of other faiths might indeed have spiritual witnesses that they are where the Lord wants them for reasons known to him. So is it possible that we are not in the true church. We might just be in the right church for us right now for reasons known only to the Lord. We will then be led to the actual truth later. How can we know this isn't the case? And why can we know that when there are others with similar spiritual confirmations that can't? This is the problem I see. When we try to explain what is meant by the confirmations of others we need to realize that those explanations could just as easily apply to us.
pogi Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 55 minutes ago, Ahab said: Until they are properly baptized they are not members of our Lord's church, though. They may know a lot, and may accept the witness of the Spirit, but until they go through the door of baptism then they are not in (if they are of the age and otherwise accountable for their sins). Not that they can't be good Christians, to the best of their knowledge, but because baptism is still a requirement. Baptism is a requirement for membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and for salvation in the kingdom of God, but it is not required for membership in the church of the Lamb of God. Just as the church of the devil does not refer to any specific religion or organization, neither does the church of the Lamb of God. It is a way to distinguish those who heed God's voice and those who do not. It is assumed that all those who belong to the Church of the Lamb will eventually accept baptism in this life or the next.
Ahab Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 54 minutes ago, pogi said: Baptism is a requirement for membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and for salvation in the kingdom of God, but it is not required for membership in the church of the Lamb of God. Just as the church of the devil does not refer to any specific religion or organization, neither does the church of the Lamb of God. It is a way to distinguish those who heed God's voice and those who do not. It is assumed that all those who belong to the Church of the Lamb will eventually accept baptism in this life or the next. Who told you that? I know our Lord's Church wasn't called The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in previous dispensations but anytime our Lord has had a church the only way to get in it was through baptism. Even in this dispensation Joseph Smith wasn't in our Lord's Church until he was baptized in it. No baptism = not in our Lord's church.
pogi Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 1 hour ago, Oliblish said: So is it possible that we are not in the true church. We might just be in the right church for us right now for reasons known only to the Lord. We will then be led to the actual truth later. How can we know this isn't the case? And why can we know that when there are others with similar spiritual confirmations that can't? This is the problem I see. When we try to explain what is meant by the confirmations of others we need to realize that those explanations could just as easily apply to us. I think you are right in your last sentence. Absolute certainty is something that we cannot obtain in this life. We will always see through a glass darkly until all the variables of truth are eventually revealed. Faith will always be required until we know all things like God. Our job is to follow the Lord wherever he leads us to the best of our ability. If the Lord tells me to turn left, I would turn left. If he tells me to turn right, I would turn right. But until that day, I will remain faithful to what I believe the Lord is telling me, which is that this is His Church.
pogi Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ahab said: Who told you that? I know our Lord's Church wasn't called The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in previous dispensations but anytime our Lord has had a church the only way to get in it was through baptism. Even in this dispensation Joseph Smith wasn't in our Lord's Church until he was baptized in it. No baptism = not in our Lord's church. "And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory (1 Nephi 14:14)." The covenant people of the Lord are clearly those who are baptized. This verse makes it clear that there are others who belong "the church of the Lamb" who are not the covenant people of the Lord. If there are only 2 churches, should we assume that all those who are not Mormon are members of the church of the devil? I think that would be folly to do so. The people who belong to the devil are only those who do not hearken to the voice of the Lord. "And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice (Moses 4:4)." It is clear to me that there are many who are not members of the LDS church who DO hearken unto the voice of the Lord and who therefore do not belong to the church of the devil, but are being guided by the Lord. There is a good article in the Ensign about it: "In either the apocalyptic sense or the historical sense, individual orientation to the Church of the Lamb or to the great and abominable church is not by membership but by loyalty. Just as there Latter-day Saints who belong to the great and abominable church because of their loyalty to Satan and his life-style, so there are members of other churches who belong to the Lamb because of their loyalty to him and his life-style. Membership is based more on who has your heart than on who has your records." https://www.lds.org/ensign/1988/01/warring-against-the-saints-of-god?lang=eng Edit: To be clear, I think this is a matter of interpretation rather than official doctrine, but it is something that I find useful and believe in. Edited March 8, 2017 by pogi
Ahab Posted March 9, 2017 Posted March 9, 2017 57 minutes ago, pogi said: "And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory (1 Nephi 14:14)." The covenant people of the Lord are clearly those who are baptized. This verse makes it clear that there are others who belong "the church of the Lamb" who are not the covenant people of the Lord. If there are only 2 churches, should we assume that all those who are not Mormon are members of the church of the devil? I think that would be folly to do so. The people who belong to the devil are only those who do not hearken to the voice of the Lord. "And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice (Moses 4:4)." It is clear to me that there are many who are not members of the LDS church who DO hearken unto the voice of the Lord and who therefore do not belong to the church of the devil, but are being guided by the Lord. There is a good article in the Ensign about it: "In either the apocalyptic sense or the historical sense, individual orientation to the Church of the Lamb or to the great and abominable church is not by membership but by loyalty. Just as there Latter-day Saints who belong to the great and abominable church because of their loyalty to Satan and his life-style, so there are members of other churches who belong to the Lamb because of their loyalty to him and his life-style. Membership is based more on who has your heart than on who has your records." https://www.lds.org/ensign/1988/01/warring-against-the-saints-of-god?lang=eng Edit: To be clear, I think this is a matter of interpretation rather than official doctrine, but it is something that I find useful and believe in. Yes I agree that it's a matter of interpretation, and I think it's a little frustrating when things aren't spelled out so clearly that nobody can misunderstand. But as long as everybody eventually learns that they need to be baptized, I suppose everything will turn out okay.
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