boblloyd91 Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 47 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: There can be atheist and agnostic individuals who go out on a limb, who step into the darkness in hope that Good and Truth and Light will prevail, and so they obey what goodness, truth, and light that they know with all their might. I think that God would be more accepting of such faith than you might expect. I'm not denying that at all, I'm just using that as an example of why merely relying on the intellect is not the most effective way of finding truth. It involves the mind and heart completely. 1
snowflake Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 13 hours ago, boblloyd91 said: But the obtaining of an LDS testimony also requires a faith and trust in Christ. Moroni 10 is very explicit about this. I'm not going to pretend to know why different people get different answers. This used to bother me to no end, but I believe in Christ's promise in Matthew 7, about seeking, finding and knocking. Why people get different answers I don't know. I agree our feelings alone aren't enough, however belief ultimately is not just a matter of the mind but the heart. I'm sure there are atheist or agnostic bible scholars that know more than you or I about the Bible but don't believe in their heart, and therefore don't have a saving faith. I can tell you why people get different answers when praying to know truth. If we accept that these testimonies were legit and sincere (which they seemed to be) there can only be one accurate conclusion. The test itself, the act of "praying to know truth" must be erroneous. If we take the truth claims of all of these different religions and compare the, they are fundamentally different. Again the Muslim god Allah, the LDS god Heavenly Father, and the JW's Jehova god are not the same. The simple fact that the spiritual witness telling everyone that their religion is correct simply cannot be "true". It's logically inconsistent!
Meadowchik Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 2 hours ago, boblloyd91 said: I'm not denying that at all, I'm just using that as an example of why merely relying on the intellect is not the most effective way of finding truth. It involves the mind and heart completely. Yup. IMO they are to be used in concert.
Meadowchik Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 1 hour ago, snowflake said: I can tell you why people get different answers when praying to know truth. If we accept that these testimonies were legit and sincere (which they seemed to be) there can only be one accurate conclusion. The test itself, the act of "praying to know truth" must be erroneous. If we take the truth claims of all of these different religions and compare the, they are fundamentally different. Again the Muslim god Allah, the LDS god Heavenly Father, and the JW's Jehova god are not the same. The simple fact that the spiritual witness telling everyone that their religion is correct simply cannot be "true". It's logically inconsistent! Or, you can compare it to fruit. Different people favor different fruits but only one can be "the best." One explanation for preference could be familiarity, another tradition, yet even more deeply it could be that one favors bananas because he needs potassium, one needs Vitamin C so she favors kiwi... 2
mfbukowski Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 4 hours ago, Meadowchik said: Maybe you just have a Roman nose No it pretty much stays on my face. Except at night of course when I keep it in a cup on the night stand.
Ahab Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Meadowchik said: Or, you can compare it to fruit. Different people favor different fruits but only one can be "the best." One explanation for preference could be familiarity, another tradition, yet even more deeply it could be that one favors bananas because he needs potassium, one needs Vitamin C so she favors kiwi... Yeah, and since not everybody likes sweet fruit then not everybody likes the fruit from the tree of life that is sweeter than all other fruit.
mfbukowski Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Meadowchik said: Or, you can compare it to fruit. Different people favor different fruits but only one can be "the best." One explanation for preference could be familiarity, another tradition, yet even more deeply it could be that one favors bananas because he needs potassium, one needs Vitamin C so she favors kiwi... Perfecto! We have elements no one else has- we can co-exist with humanists, materialists, Evangelicals, if they let us, Catholics and athiests Monotheists and polytheists, evolutionists new earthers intelligent design and no design whatsoever. We really could be the stone cut without hands if we ever got out act together. The key is orthopraxy and an understanding of what an open canon means. But then we have humans to deal with who know nothing about any of this as well. Kinda frustrating. "Jesus is the truth"- yes of course - what else is new, but they cannot see that there is a whole philosophy that makes saying that possible 1
pogi Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 2 hours ago, snowflake said: I can tell you why people get different answers when praying to know truth. If we accept that these testimonies were legit and sincere (which they seemed to be) there can only be one accurate conclusion. The test itself, the act of "praying to know truth" must be erroneous. If we take the truth claims of all of these different religions and compare the, they are fundamentally different. Again the Muslim god Allah, the LDS god Heavenly Father, and the JW's Jehova god are not the same. The simple fact that the spiritual witness telling everyone that their religion is correct simply cannot be "true". It's logically inconsistent! God does guide those who pray to know truth. It is not erroneous to assume that God will bless us with truth as we pray for it. It is scriptural. "And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.” Matthew 21:22 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you." Matthew 7:7 The natural man relies entirely on intellect and reason for understanding, but 1 Corinthinas 2:14 states that the natural man does not understand the things of the Spirit of God as they can only be "spiritually discerned" and not intellectually discovered. No man can say that "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit (1 Corinth 12). Ephesians states that Christ and his spirit abides in our hearts. It does not come all at once, but it comes line upon line and precept upon precept. Concepts might be revealed to our minds but are known in our hearts. That is where all spiritual understanding takes place - in our hearts - in good earth (Parable of the sower). We receive pieces of truth for our individual needs. All truth necessarily passes through the filter of cultural bias etc. In other words, our understanding of truth may vary from what is actually given, but the more we receive the more our perspective is clarified as we become more "enlightened". This explains why all of these varying testimonies are both spiritually legitimate and entirely un-whole. The Blind Men and the Elephant John Godfrey Saxe (1816-1887) It was six men of Indostan To learning much inclined, Who went to see the Elephant (Though all of them were blind), That each by observation Might satisfy his mind. The First approached the Elephant, And happening to fall Against his broad and sturdy side, At once began to bawl: "God bless me! but the Elephant Is very like a WALL!" The Second, feeling of the tusk, Cried, "Ho, what have we here, So very round and smooth and sharp? To me 'tis mighty clear This wonder of an Elephant Is very like a SPEAR!" The Third approached the animal, And happening to take The squirming trunk within his hands, Thus boldly up and spake: "I see," quoth he, "the Elephant Is very like a SNAKE!" The Fourth reached out an eager hand, And felt about the knee "What most this wondrous beast is like Is mighty plain," quoth he: "'Tis clear enough the Elephant Is very like a TREE!" The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear, Said: "E'en the blindest man Can tell what this resembles most; Deny the fact who can, This marvel of an Elephant Is very like a FAN!" The Sixth no sooner had begun About the beast to grope, Than seizing on the swinging tail That fell within his scope, "I see," quoth he, "the Elephant Is very like a ROPE!" And so these men of Indostan Disputed loud and long, Each in his own opinion Exceeding stiff and strong, Though each was partly in the right, And all were in the wrong! 1
Oliblish Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Meadowchik said: Or, you can compare it to fruit. Different people favor different fruits but only one can be "the best." One explanation for preference could be familiarity, another tradition, yet even more deeply it could be that one favors bananas because he needs potassium, one needs Vitamin C so she favors kiwi... Assuming that only one fruit can be "the best," how can we be sure that it is our fruit that is the best? Most of us have never tasted all of the other fruits. Have you sincerely prayed about all of these other religions with true intent? I think all of the people in the video would say that their fruit is the best. Is there a way we can actually compare the different fruits to see which one is actually "the best?" I have had it explained to me that people outside the church can feel the spirit to bear testimony of the partial truths that they understand while we are the only ones who have the full truth. This may be so, but how do we know that we aren't the ones with a partial truth and someone else has the full truth? No matter how I look at it I don't see any way to know which of all these testimonies lead us to the best fruit.
mfbukowski Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 3 hours ago, snowflake said: I can tell you why people get different answers when praying to know truth. If we accept that these testimonies were legit and sincere (which they seemed to be) there can only be one accurate conclusion. The test itself, the act of "praying to know truth" must be erroneous. If we take the truth claims of all of these different religions and compare the, they are fundamentally different. Again the Muslim god Allah, the LDS god Heavenly Father, and the JW's Jehova god are not the same. The simple fact that the spiritual witness telling everyone that their religion is correct simply cannot be "true". It's logically inconsistent! Uh, no. Your assumptions about the nature of truth are inconsistent. Truth exists in spheres. We will never build a space ship to reach heaven. The sun does not circle the earth and God did not use Job as a pawn in a game with the devil. All you can personally know is what God puts in your heart and what comes through your senses. The rest is tradition you have not bothered to test. It is other people's opinions followed blindly. From your comments that is the only conclusion I can reach- that you do NOT follow your own heart. God is not the author of confusion- his will for you is right there in your heart. Mankind is the author of confusion and following the bible blindly is following the words of men. I am not saying the bible is not the word of God- I am saying that those who follow it for the wrong reasons- just because it says so- are following the words of men. The bible reveals itself in your heart through God's inspiration. It is like a tin can telephone, words passed down through faulty means and needs to be planted and grown in your heart to come to fruition. I am sorry that you have never prayed for advice in your life or received a personal revelation about how to live, what church to join, whom to marry, or when to move from one lane to another to avoid a collision a mile down the road. Science cannot prove that murder is wrong- that knowledge is inside you in your heart. You do not find murder sickening because it says so in the bible.(I hope) Logic is contextual and language is ambiguous, as is scripture, like anything linguistic. But teaching folks that is too long a process to do here five times a day. Just follow the spirit and you will learn what God wants for YOU- that is all anyone has to worry about. 3
mfbukowski Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 14 minutes ago, pogi said: God does guide those who pray to know truth. It is not erroneous to assume that God will bless us with truth as we pray for it. It is scriptural. "And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.” Matthew 21:22 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you." Matthew 7:7 The natural man relies entirely on intellect and reason for understanding, but 1 Corinthinas 2:14 states that the natural man does not understand the things of the Spirit of God as they can only be "spiritually discerned" and not intellectually discovered. No man can say that "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit (1 Corinth 12). Ephesians states that Christ and his spirit abides in our hearts. It does not come all at once, but it comes line upon line and precept upon precept. Concepts might be revealed to our minds but are known in our hearts. That is where all spiritual understanding takes place - in our hearts - in good earth (Parable of the sower). We receive pieces of truth for our individual needs. All truth necessarily passes through the filter of cultural bias etc. In other words, our understanding of truth may vary from what is actually given, but the more we receive the more our perspective is clarified as we become more "enlightened". This explains why all of these varying testimonies are both spiritually legitimate and entirely un-whole. The Blind Men and the Elephant John Godfrey Saxe (1816-1887) It was six men of Indostan To learning much inclined, Who went to see the Elephant (Though all of them were blind), That each by observation Might satisfy his mind. The First approached the Elephant, And happening to fall Against his broad and sturdy side, At once began to bawl: "God bless me! but the Elephant Is very like a WALL!" The Second, feeling of the tusk, Cried, "Ho, what have we here, So very round and smooth and sharp? To me 'tis mighty clear This wonder of an Elephant Is very like a SPEAR!" The Third approached the animal, And happening to take The squirming trunk within his hands, Thus boldly up and spake: "I see," quoth he, "the Elephant Is very like a SNAKE!" The Fourth reached out an eager hand, And felt about the knee "What most this wondrous beast is like Is mighty plain," quoth he: "'Tis clear enough the Elephant Is very like a TREE!" The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear, Said: "E'en the blindest man Can tell what this resembles most; Deny the fact who can, This marvel of an Elephant Is very like a FAN!" The Sixth no sooner had begun About the beast to grope, Than seizing on the swinging tail That fell within his scope, "I see," quoth he, "the Elephant Is very like a ROPE!" And so these men of Indostan Disputed loud and long, Each in his own opinion Exceeding stiff and strong, Though each was partly in the right, And all were in the wrong! Oh My Gosh, as usual we are twins. See above.
mfbukowski Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 57 minutes ago, Oliblish said: Assuming that only one fruit can be "the best," how can we be sure that it is our fruit that is the best? Most of us have never tasted all of the other fruits. Have you sincerely prayed about all of these other religions with true intent? I think all of the people in the video would say that their fruit is the best. Is there a way we can actually compare the different fruits to see which one is actually "the best?" I have had it explained to me that people outside the church can feel the spirit to bear testimony of the partial truths that they understand while we are the only ones who have the full truth. This may be so, but how do we know that we aren't the ones with a partial truth and someone else has the full truth? No matter how I look at it I don't see any way to know which of all these testimonies lead us to the best fruit. Uh, go exploring. Or take my word for it. Been there, done em all. Catholic communist athiest, Buddhist Taoist, Mormon. Been here 38 years and going nowhere but up I hope.
Ahab Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 58 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: We will never build a space ship to reach heaven. Who are you calling this "we". Hmm. Someday I may do it. Heaven is out there in space and a ship would be useful to carry things both to and from heaven.
boblloyd91 Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, snowflake said: I can tell you why people get different answers when praying to know truth. If we accept that these testimonies were legit and sincere (which they seemed to be) there can only be one accurate conclusion. The test itself, the act of "praying to know truth" must be erroneous. If we take the truth claims of all of these different religions and compare the, they are fundamentally different. Again the Muslim god Allah, the LDS god Heavenly Father, and the JW's Jehova god are not the same. The simple fact that the spiritual witness telling everyone that their religion is correct simply cannot be "true". It's logically inconsistent! So explain to me and everyone else here then why your Protestant method of Sola Scriptura is the only viable method of finding truth. What role do you think prayer plays in finding truth? As a Protestant, it's a bit ironic (even hypocritical) that you condemn LDS yet a brief look at the Reformation and its subsequent history shows plenty of confusion. In fact to take this a step further, Joseph was surrounded by people saying the same things you are, indicating that there was a single objective truth found in Christ (which I agree with). However the problem was whether this objective truth was found through Methodists, Presbyterians etc. and which theology was true. I know some try to downplay this by making the differences among Protestant denominations small and insignificant, but the sheer volume of denominations indicate that even among those who claim they are the ones who are right tells me the results of their methods are just as varied Edited March 7, 2017 by boblloyd91 1
mfbukowski Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, boblloyd91 said: So explain to me and everyone else here then why your Protestant method of Sola Scriptura is the only viable method of finding truth. What role do you think prayer plays in finding truth? As a Protestant, it's a bit ironic (even hypocritical) that you condemn LDS yet a brief look at the Reformation and its subsequent history shows plenty of confusion. Which raises an excellent excellent question- what prompted the reformers to "reform" in the first place??? Why did they not bow to tradition and do what they are told as today's Evangelical fundamentalists do? If they did not question biblical interpretations there would have BEEN NO "reformation"! How did they even decide that sola scriptura was "right" and what evidence did they have for that?? I do not know a single Evangelical who does not pray for guidance from the Lord- I have no clue where this guy is coming from. I think of altar calls- where folks like Billy Graham are asking people to listen to the Lord and come forward and pray the sinners prayer and become "Christian"- what is happening there??? Are those folks suddenly convinced by biblical scholarship?? This is a logical process?? Billy Graham puts a logical mathematical proof on the board and suddenly everyone wants to be Christian? How absurd can you get?? Atheists insist that we use logic and evidence to "prove" religion and correctly find that it does not work and there fore they are NOT Christians or even theists This guy says use the same logic and evidence to prove God exists and that Jesus is the Savior. The absurdity of that position just boggles the mind. Hundreds or more were physical eyewitness to the crucifixion and were not converted. It is not evidence or logic that converts anyone Edited March 7, 2017 by mfbukowski 1
Ahab Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 19 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: It is not evidence or logic that converts anyone Hyperbole or exaggeration. Hmm. Not sure which one it is but whichever one it is your statement isn't true.
mfbukowski Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 11 minutes ago, Ahab said: Hyperbole or exaggeration. Hmm. Not sure which one it is but whichever one it is your statement isn't true.
Ahab Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 8 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: I was converted by both evidence and logic, together. Enough said, yet?
snowflake Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 5 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Uh, no. Your assumptions about the nature of truth are inconsistent. Truth exists in spheres. We will never build a space ship to reach heaven. The sun does not circle the earth and God did not use Job as a pawn in a game with the devil. All you can personally know is what God puts in your heart and what comes through your senses. The rest is tradition you have not bothered to test. It is other people's opinions followed blindly. From your comments that is the only conclusion I can reach- that you do NOT follow your own heart. God is not the author of confusion- his will for you is right there in your heart. Mankind is the author of confusion and following the bible blindly is following the words of men. I am not saying the bible is not the word of God- I am saying that those who follow it for the wrong reasons- just because it says so- are following the words of men. The bible reveals itself in your heart through God's inspiration. It is like a tin can telephone, words passed down through faulty means and needs to be planted and grown in your heart to come to fruition. I am sorry that you have never prayed for advice in your life or received a personal revelation about how to live, what church to join, whom to marry, or when to move from one lane to another to avoid a collision a mile down the road. Science cannot prove that murder is wrong- that knowledge is inside you in your heart. You do not find murder sickening because it says so in the bible.(I hope) Logic is contextual and language is ambiguous, as is scripture, like anything linguistic. But teaching folks that is too long a process to do here five times a day. Just follow the spirit and you will learn what God wants for YOU- that is all anyone has to worry about. Uh, that's not very consistent. You keep dodging the question. Why would God tell all these other people that their church was the correct one, along with the LDS folks. They simply don't agree on things as basic as God, and who Jesus is. They don't agree so they both can't be correct, it's that simple, one might be correct but they both can't be. God tells you your "truth sphere" is the current LDS sect in salt lake, and that is true. He tells someone else that it is Buddhism or Islam and to them that is truth? Scripture tells us that God cannot lie. So it seems to me that you are making him out to be a deceiver. Is there such a thing as truth? (that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality)?
snowflake Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 4 hours ago, Ahab said: Who are you calling this "we". Hmm. Someday I may do it. Heaven is out there in space and a ship would be useful to carry things both to and from heaven. Kolob road trip? I want in!
Ahab Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 16 minutes ago, snowflake said: Kolob road trip? I want in! The way you're progressing so far I may need to drop you off somewhere else in heaven while I'm on my way.
Ahab Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 21 minutes ago, snowflake said: Uh, that's not very consistent. You keep dodging the question. Why would God tell all these other people that their church was the correct one, along with the LDS folks. They simply don't agree on things as basic as God, and who Jesus is. They don't agree so they both can't be correct, it's that simple, one might be correct but they both can't be. God tells you your "truth sphere" is the current LDS sect in salt lake, and that is true. He tells someone else that it is Buddhism or Islam and to them that is truth? Scripture tells us that God cannot lie. So it seems to me that you are making him out to be a deceiver. Is there such a thing as truth? (that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality)? Didn't you read the story about the elephant? And you still don't understand, yet? Tsk tsk tsk. What are we going to do with you?
Oliblish Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 1 hour ago, Ahab said: Didn't you read the story about the elephant? And you still don't understand, yet? Tsk tsk tsk. What are we going to do with you? I read the story about the elephant and I still don't understand either. How do you think that relates to spiritual confirmations?
Ahab Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 5 minutes ago, Oliblish said: I read the story about the elephant and I still don't understand either. How do you think that relates to spiritual confirmations? A little bit here and a little bit there, line upon line and precept upon precept, until we all come to be like our Savior and know him as well as he knows us. It's just that some people give up on putting the pieces together to become as intelligent as he is. Do you realize that all of those things about the elephant were true, just as there are a lot of things that are true about God, our Father, too?
mrmarklin Posted March 8, 2017 Posted March 8, 2017 As a dyed in the wool Harley rider I can firmly state that if I have to explain it, you wouldn't understand. As as for atheism, one cannot prove a negative.
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