Progress between Kingdoms (a speculative poll)

[JLHPROF]

B. H. Roberts -
The question of advancement within the great divisions of glory—celestial, terrestrial, and telestial; as also the question of advancement from one sphere of glory to another, remains to be considered. In the revelation from which we have summarized what has been written here, in respect to the different degrees of glory, it is said that those of the terrestrial glory will be ministered unto by those of the celestial; and those of the telestial will be ministered to by those of the terrestrial—that is, those of the higher glory minister to those of a lesser order of glory. We can conceive of no reason for all this administration of the higher to the lower, unless it be for the purpose of advancing our Father’s children along the lines of eternal progression. Whether or not in the great future, full of so many possibilities now hidden from us, they of the lesser glories after education and advancement within those spheres may at last emerge from them and make their way to the higher degrees of glory until at last they attain to the highest, is not revealed in the revelations of God, and any statement made on the subject must partake of more or less the nature of conjecture. But if it be granted that such a thing is possible, they who at the first entered into the celestial glory—having before them the privilege also of eternal progress—have been moving onward, so that the relative distance between them and those who have fought their way up from the lesser glories, may be as great when the latter have come into the degrees of celestial glory in which the righteous at first stood, as it was at the commencement; and thus between them is an impassable gulf which time cannot destroy. Thus: those whose faith and works in this life were such as to entitle them to entrance into the celestial kingdom—they may arrive where these were, but never where they are. But if it be granted that the chief fact about Intelligences is that they have power to add fact to fact and thus build up knowledge, and through knowledge have wisdom, and thus make progress; and if to such intelligences there is granted eternal life—immortality—then it is useless to postulate any limitations for them; for in the passing of even a few thousands of millions of years, even if progress be very slow—there will come a time when these intelligences—men and women of even the telestial glory—may become very acceptable characters, and very important personages. (Brigham H. Roberts, "Outlines of Ecclesiastical History," 4th Edition, 1925; "The Restoration of the Gospel", pp. 416-417)

He [Brigham Young] thought they [those of lower kingdoms] would eventually have the privilege of proving themselves worthy and advancing to a celestial kingdom but it would be a slow progress. (Journal of Wilford Woodruff; August 5, 1855)

Hiram [Smith] said Aug 1st [18]43[:] Those of the Terrestrial Glory either advance to the Celestial or recede to the Telestial [or] else the moon could not be a type [viz. a symbol of that kingdom]. [for] it [the moon] "waxes & wanes".  ("Words of the Prophet", p. 24 ("Scriptural Items"); Scribe: Franklin D. Richards, August 1, 1843)

-------------------------------------------------VS-------------------------------------------

Bruce R. McConkie -
Heresy five: There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were.  This belief lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say, “God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually; if we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will; so why worry?” It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the hope that they will be saved eventually.  The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies—some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. The body we receive in the resurrection determines the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared.

Of those in the telestial world it is written: “And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end” (D&C 76:112).

Of those who had the opportunity to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage in this life and who did not do it, the revelation says:
Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven; which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever. [D&C 132:16–17]

They neither progress from one kingdom to another, nor does a lower kingdom ever get where a higher kingdom once was. Whatever eternal progression there is, it is within a sphere.
 

Spencer W. Kimball: "After a person has been assigned to his place in the kingdom, . . . he will never advance from his assigned glory to another glory. . . . That is why we must make our decisions early in life and why it is imperative that such decisions be right." (Miracle of Forgiveness)

Joseph Fielding Smith, Bruce R. McConkie
"In both the terrestrial and the telestial glories the inhabitants thereof will be limited in their powers, opportunities, and progression, because, like the sons of perdition, "they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received." (D&C 88: 23) 
"It has been asked if it is possible for one who inherits the telestial glory to advance in time to the celestial glory?
The answer to this question is, No!
The scriptures are clear on this point. Speaking of those who go to the telestial kingdom, the revelation says: "And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end." (D&D 76: 108-112) (DOCTRINES OF SALVATION, VOL. 2 by Joseph Fielding Smith, Bruce R. McConkie)
 

Edited January 6, 2017 by JLHPROF

[JAHS]

BH Roberts was not exactly what I would call a Prophet of God.  I think progression can happen within each glory, but not from one glory to the next.  At the resurrection we obtain an immortal body that is prepared for the kingdom we will inhabit. Speaking of the resurrection the scriptures say:

"They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.
Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. 
And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness." (D&C 88: 28-31)

Spencer W. Kimball: "After a person has been assigned to his place in the kingdom, . . . he will never advance from his assigned glory to another glory. . . . That is why we must make our decisions early in life and why it is imperative that such decisions be right." (Miracle of Forgiveness)

 

 

[JLHPROF]

6 minutes ago, JAHS said:

BH Roberts was not exactly what I would call a Prophet of God.

No, but Brigham Young, Hyrum Smith, and Wilford Woodruff all are.  I added additional quotes.
I also added your Spencer W. Kimball quote to the opposing view.  Thank you for providing it.

Quote

 I think progression can happen within each glory, but not from one glory to the next.  At the resurrection we obtain an immortal body that is prepared for the kingdom we will inhabit.

In pre-mortality we had only a spirit body.  We progressed to earth and gained a physical body.
At birth here we gain a physical body in a mortal telestial kingdom with limited glory.
Eventually that body can progress to become immortal telestial, immortal terrestrial, immortal celestial.
Why does that progression have to stop for eternities without end at that point?

[strappinglad]

This may sound flippant , but if there is no further progress after the resurrection , or no possibility of improving upon our experience on this earth , then it behooves me to do all in my power to see to it that my children are guaranteed the Celestial Kingdom. We don't want to go to those extremes do we?

[carbon dioxide]

Based on what I know, there is no progression up but probably progression within a kingdom.  Also if it is possible to move to a higher kingdom, perhaps it is also possible to fall to a lower kingdom.  Perhaps some exalted beings might rebel and be cast to the Telestial or outer darkness. 

[thatjimguy]

I know there are many quotes given about it, but if they are not doctrinal, then they are only opinions. 

It makes sense to me reading from what i have read in scripture only, (in spirit and reasoning, not a direct quoteable thing) that it is possible. 

I think it is because God's grace is so great he created the three kingdoms in the first place.

Some of this also depends if we stop learning once we hit the afterlife. I am thinking we wont. If we can learn, we can still grow.

Probably more than that i can throw out there but that starts the idea.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, strappinglad said:

This may sound flippant , but if there is no further progress after the resurrection , or no possibility of improving upon our experience on this earth , then it behooves me to do all in my power to see to it that my children are guaranteed the Celestial Kingdom. We don't want to go to those extremes do we?

I think it does behoove us to do all that we can. People who try to use extreme methods to get their children to live the gospel tend to fail. So do all you can in a sane manner.

I suspect there is progress between kingdoms but that is based on my thought that if there were not God would have told us to make it clear that we risk more then we may thing. I am not worried about it much in any case.

[thatjimguy]

26 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I think it does behoove us to do all that we can. People who try to use extreme methods to get their children to live the gospel tend to fail. So do all you can in a sane manner.

I'm down with this. The idea of progression makes the yoke light as Jesus would want it, not lax...but light.

I feel the other way leans to the stress of perfectionism.

[Bobbieaware]

First of all, we are taught the atonement of Christ is infinite and eternal, which to me means it's blessings are of eternal weight and that they go on forever. It's hard to imagine God would hold back anyone who sincerely wants to change for the better. In fact, Why would a God of perfect love WANT to hold anyone back from growing and progressing in the grace and knowledge of God? Because he takes some kind of perverse pleasure in holding people back after they've clearly demonstrated they want to move forward? Impossible to imagine.because the prophet Joseph Smith taught:

"All the minds and spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible of enlargement."

 

Edited January 6, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[CV75]

3 cheers for Requisite "Other"

Perhaps we may advance in a sense, but as Joseph Smith pointed out, having to do so represents a disadvantage that apparently can never be ameliorated: “Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection. And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.” (D&C 130:18-19). If we forfeit and surrender knowledge and intelligence, we will have so much the disadvantage in the world to come, and the resurrected world to come is never-ending.

Evidently we can advance within the spirit world (I’m positive there are gradations there as well; more than just Paradise and Prison); that seems to make more sense to me and the sky would be the limit (so to speak).

The key in any kingdom is “diligence and obedience,” and “when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.” (D&C 130:21). This reflects the revelation that “All kingdoms have a law given; And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions. All beings who abide not in those conditions are not justified.” (D&C 88:36-39). This reflects the difference between any one of the lesser levels in the celestial kingdom (but yet it is still “a” celestial kingdom) and exaltation (D&C 131:1-3).

I think adopting the attitude that we can always progress in the spirit world or post-resurrection runs counter to gaining more knowledge and intelligence in this life through diligence and obedience, and serves as such a disadvantage as to play into the predicament (“crisis,” actually) where “that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world,” so it is better to adopt the attitude that “this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.” (Alma 34:32-35). I do think Amulek mentions only the two extremes to teach a point, since the revelations of the Restoration get into more detail about the many kingdoms or degrees.

Edited January 6, 2017 by CV75

[JAHS]

8 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

No, but Brigham Young, Hyrum Smith, and Wilford Woodruff all are.  I added additional quotes.
I also added your Spencer W. Kimball quote to the opposing view.  Thank you for providing it.

In pre-mortality we had only a spirit body.  We progressed to earth and gained a physical body.
At birth here we gain a physical body in a mortal telestial kingdom with limited glory.
Eventually that body can progress to become immortal telestial, immortal terrestrial, immortal celestial.
Why does that progression have to stop for eternities without end at that point?

These scriptures come to mind:

32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

 33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

 34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world. (Alma 34)

We are to prepare for eternity in this life. The only other people who this might not apply to are those who never had a chance to hear the gospel in this life.  I agree with what Elder McConkie said and it makes sense to me. "This belief lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say, “God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually; if we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will; so why worry?” It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the hope that they will be saved eventually."

Why experience this life at all if it is not the place where we are to prove ourselves worthy of a celestial glory?

[BlueDreams]

My first response is no followed by maybe (I put other because I didn't agree that it made sense...just that I don't no everything and anything is possible, so maybe). I've heard the idea before but I've never seen strong scriptural evidence for it. In my head, they've also had every chance to figure it out. Pre-earth life, mortality, and the spirit world. And the final judgement in its depiction has always felt...well...final. I picture it as the creation of a star or planet. We've all been placed into an ideal setting to become are fullest potential. By how we gathered said material depends who we become. But in our creation are course becomes fixed and our trajectory set. When I read about the reception of light and that each body follows the law of whatever kingdom set forth I think of that. But again, who knows. My vision is limited and I know God's a merciful being. I also know he is a just and fair God. I do now know where this idea fits in the balance.

with luv, 

BD 

Edited January 6, 2017 by BlueDreams

[CV75]

8 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Why does that progression have to stop for eternities without end at that point?

I think it depends on the disadvantages we choose to carry with us by virtue of the attitudes we carry with us. I think it is more likely the Lord designed things so that our maximal progress is achieved in the spirit world, and we can stay there for as long as we want--or for as long as he deems is necessary for us to fulfill our maximal progress given our chosen disadvantages.

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Perhaps we may advance in a sense, but as Joseph Smith pointed out, having to do so represents a disadvantage that apparently can never be ameliorated: .

A very different discussion.
But true.

The issue isn't one of ever catching up with those who went on ahead.
The issue is one of finite vs infinite.
No matter how big the Terrestrial Kingdom may be, considering the neverending nature of eternity, if that kingdom has finite bounds then eventually you would come to a point where you have done EVERYTHING possible to do and learned EVERYTHING possible to learn within that finite sphere.

Such stagnation would be worse than hell.

[CV75]

4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

A very different discussion.
But true.

The issue isn't one of ever catching up with those who went on ahead.
The issue is one of finite vs infinite.
No matter how big the Terrestrial Kingdom may be, considering the neverending nature of eternity, if that kingdom has finite bounds then eventually you would come to a point where you have done EVERYTHING possible to do and learned EVERYTHING possible to learn within that finite sphere.

Such stagnation would be worse than hell.

Perhaps we accept our own version of heaven after achieving our maximal progress in the spirit world. After suffering( D&C 138:5 and 19:17), anything would be heaven! Also, people who opt for certain disadvantages might not see this as stagnation anyway.

Plus, I take the "advantage" from D&C 130 to be one's own personal advantage, not as leverage in comparing or competing with others (that would be proud and uncharitable).

Edited January 6, 2017 by CV75

[JLHPROF]

11 minutes ago, JAHS said:

These scriptures come to mind:

32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

 33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

 34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world. (Alma 34)

We are to prepare for eternity in this life. The only other people who this might not apply to are those who never had a chance to hear the gospel in this life.  I agree with what Elder McConkie said and it makes sense to me. "This belief lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say, “God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually; if we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will; so why worry?” It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the hope that they will be saved eventually."

Why experience this life at all if it is not the place where we are to prove ourselves worthy of a celestial glory?

For me, these scriptures come to mind:

D&C 76:
86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;
87 And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial.
88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation.

The higher ministering to the lower.  I agree with Roberts.  What purpose can there be in the Terrestrial ministering to the Telestial if not to raise them up?

[HappyJackWagon]

The idea that progression would end seems to undermine the best, most hopeful elements of Mormonism. Eternity sounds like misery in a stagnant system.

Besides, does it make sense to think that eternal placement is dependent on the pinprick of time in mortality. It's like basing a person's career on a five minute pop quiz from kindergarten.

[Gray]

Assuming that these kingdoms literally exist, it would make the most sense to me to have progression between kingdoms. To me it doesn't make sense to have eternity decided with finality by one's actions in the span of 8-90 years. 

[CV75]

53 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

The higher ministering to the lower.  I agree with Roberts.  What purpose can there be in the Terrestrial ministering to the Telestial if not to raise them up?

This ministering for the purpose of advancement could still take place in the spirit world and prepare those souls to "enjoy that which they are willing to receive" to the fullest extent. The progression from one glory to another could refer to the spirit world, which is but a continuation of mortality (or this life") prior to the gift of immortality being bestowed.

This ministering in the resurrected worlds is consistent with the laws of each kingdom, where lower kingdoms are dependent on the higher kingdoms' governance to receive their chosen portion of the fulness. Glory doesn't just grow on trees, you know!

So I think all the quotes speak truth about progress, but have to be taken in the context of our present lifetime, the spirit world's further preparation and the resurrected worlds.

Edited January 6, 2017 by CV75

[JAHS]

54 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

For me, these scriptures come to mind:

D&C 76:
86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;
87 And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial.
88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation.

The higher ministering to the lower.  I agree with Roberts.  What purpose can there be in the Terrestrial ministering to the Telestial if not to raise them up?

They are all heirs of salvation in some degree of glory. The ministering is done to raise them up within their kingdom of glory. 
I think it's obvious that there are too many conflicting bits of information regarding this subject, which I don't think will ever be resolved until we get there and see what happens.

 

[rodheadlee]

Forever is a really long time. How many eternities is that?

[VideoGameJunkie]

Can I vote for the option I hope so? And do you think there's advancement beyond the 3rd level of the Celestial Kingdom?

[CV75]

When I conceptualize the three kingdoms as having a form of expression in three major ways, it helps me see where (and how) we can and cannot progress between kingdoms:

Our mortal lifetime of flesh and blood: telestial world (life without the Gospel or much of the light of Christ); terrestrial world (life with a form of the Gospel, familiarity with the light of Christ, and/or or pre-temple covenants); celestial world (life with a fullness of the Gospel and / or temple covenants). Progress happens, for this life is the time to prepare.

The spirit world: telestial world (Prison); terrestrial world (Prison but hearing and applying the word with faith); celestial world (Paradise and teaching the word). Progress happens, for this is part of “this life.”

The resurrected world: As D&C describes it. Progress is found in the sense of the continuation of the seeds (exaltation). The scriptures indicate that there is no kingdom higher than exaltation, so progression beyond it would not be a thing; all the progress is within the kingdom. This indicates that progress within lesser kingdoms is also prescribed by the laws of the respective kingdom, and where there is no continuation of the seeds. The levels and forms of “ministration” limit how far the inhabitants can progress. Progress happens in a sense, and within the kingdom of glory.

So those who say we can progress between kingdoms are right, and those who say we cannot progress are also right.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Assuming that these kingdoms literally exist, it would make the most sense to me to have progression between kingdoms. To me it doesn't make sense to have eternity decided with finality by one's actions in the span of 8-90 years. 

To have eternity forever without end decided based on decisions made with incomplete information in a fallen condition primarily using nothing but faith.
Almost like God would be setting his work up to fail.

Additionally, for Christ's atonement to truly be infinite it would have to be efficacious on all who fall under it without ever ceasing.  The price for those sins of mortality has been already been paid.  So the only thing preventing a telestial being from taking advantage of the atonement is their willingness to abide law and move forward.
What gospel principle would cause God to refuse future progression of a willing child?

[JLHPROF]

35 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

And do you think there's advancement beyond the 3rd level of the Celestial Kingdom?

You know I do.