Progress between Kingdoms (a speculative poll)

[Gray]

3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

To have eternity forever without end decided based on decisions made with incomplete information in a fallen condition primarily using nothing but faith.
Almost like God would be setting his work up to fail.

Additionally, for Christ's atonement to truly be infinite it would have to be efficacious on all who fall under it without ever ceasing.  The price for those sins of mortality has been already been paid.  So the only thing preventing a telestial being from taking advantage of the atonement is their willingness to abide law and move forward.
What gospel principle would cause God to refuse future progression of a willing child?

Excellent points!

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

This ministering in the resurrected worlds is consistent with the laws of each kingdom, where lower kingdoms are dependent on the higher kingdoms' governance to receive their chosen portion of the fulness. Glory doesn't just grow on trees, you know!

Glory of God is intelligence (truth and light).  Not dominion or kingdom or number of earths created.
Salvation level is directly connected to knowledge according to Joseph Smith.

If God knows everything it is impossible for him to increase in glory.
If a telestial being comes to sufficient knowledge (something an eternity in telestial environments would make unavoidable) cause and effect would make him a terrestrial being.  His glory (intelligence) would be sufficient.

Glory is not some ethereal mystical light power that is withheld from the Terrestrial people.  It is knowledge  and application of that light.
If they come to a Celestial knowledge and apply it they become Celestial.
Hence the ministering (teaching).

[VideoGameJunkie]

23 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

You know I do.

That's true. I know you do. I was also wondering if other people thought this way as well. I mean eternal progression for exalted beings should mean something. But we have to decipher what the definition of progression is in the eternities. Is it just having spirit children for eternity?

[VideoGameJunkie]

Besides the ability the have offspring for a Celestial body, what are the differences between resurrected Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial bodies? Is it just the higher ones shine more light and have more knowledge than the lower bodies or is there more?

[JAHS]

11 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

No, but Brigham Young, Hyrum Smith, and Wilford Woodruff all are.  I added additional quotes.
I also added your Spencer W. Kimball quote to the opposing view.  Thank you for providing it.

In pre-mortality we had only a spirit body.  We progressed to earth and gained a physical body.
At birth here we gain a physical body in a mortal telestial kingdom with limited glory.
Eventually that body can progress to become immortal telestial, immortal terrestrial, immortal celestial.
Why does that progression have to stop for eternities without end at that point?

Here's another quote for the VS side of the poll

"In both the terrestrial and the telestial glories the inhabitants thereof will be limited in their powers, opportunities, and progression, because, like the sons of perdition, "they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received." (D&C 88: 23) 
"It has been asked if it is possible for one who inherits the telestial glory to advance in time to the celestial glory?
The answer to this question is, No!
The scriptures are clear on this point. Speaking of those who go to the telestial kingdom, the revelation says: "And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end." (D&D 76: 108-112) (DOCTRINES OF SALVATION, VOL. 2 by Joseph Fielding Smith, Bruce R. McConkie)
 

[CV75]

59 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Glory of God is intelligence (truth and light).  Not dominion or kingdom or number of earths created.
Salvation level is directly connected to knowledge according to Joseph Smith.

If God knows everything it is impossible for him to increase in glory.
If a telestial being comes to sufficient knowledge (something an eternity in telestial environments would make unavoidable) cause and effect would make him a terrestrial being.  His glory (intelligence) would be sufficient.

Glory is not some ethereal mystical light power that is withheld from the Terrestrial people.  It is knowledge  and application of that light.
If they come to a Celestial knowledge and apply it they become Celestial.
Hence the ministering (teaching).

I think everything you’ve said here fits into the progression between kingdoms in the earthly, spirit prison, and resurrected realms, in context.

The glory of God, (immortality, eternal life, intelligence, truth and light) are governed by God, and His governance is delegated to others in His heavenly and earthly kingdoms, and is distributed through various media/mediums.

Knowledge is key in all these realms, but does not always translate into progress.

God does in increase in glory in some ways (continuation of the seeds, creations, etc.), an example of applied knowledge effectuating progress, to which there is no end (for Him).

A telestial being in this world or the spirit world can certainly advance in knowledge and applied knowledge to the greatest degree. After that, or after being resurrected, the ministrations (gifts) unto him are given by the respective ministers and defined by their respective media. The Lord will not descend into the telestial kingdom to render His ministration, and the Holy Spirit hasn’t the gravitas of the Lord to bring people up into the terrestrial kingdom (just as in this life, for example: the testimony comes by the power of the Holy Ghost, but the covenants come only from the Lord’s priesthood). His glory (intelligence) is bound by the ministrations of the Holy Spirit, just as one’s progress in the Church is bound if all he keeps is his testimony without entering the covenants.

Advanced ministering to convey advanced light and knowledge, etc. is more than teaching, just as the Lord’s power of the priesthood is a more advanced form of ministering than the power of the Holy Ghost.

[JLHPROF]

11 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Here's another quote for the VS side of the poll

"In both the terrestrial and the telestial glories the inhabitants thereof will be limited in their powers, opportunities, and progression, because, like the sons of perdition, "they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received." (D&C 88: 23) 
"It has been asked if it is possible for one who inherits the telestial glory to advance in time to the celestial glory?
The answer to this question is, No!
The scriptures are clear on this point. Speaking of those who go to the telestial kingdom, the revelation says: "And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end." (D&D 76: 108-112) (DOCTRINES OF SALVATION, VOL. 2 by Joseph Fielding Smith, Bruce R. McConkie)
 

Done!
Fascinating how different the viewpoints of 1960s leaders are from the leaders in the 1800s, or even 30 years earlier.

Edited January 6, 2017 by JLHPROF

[thesometimesaint]

If Eternal Progression is universally real then one member of a lower kingdom can never progress fast enough to inhabit a higher one.

[JLHPROF]

9 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Knowledge is key in all these realms, but does not always translate into progress.

Agreed

God does in increase in glory in some ways (continuation of the seeds, creations, etc.), an example of applied knowledge effectuating progress, to which there is no end (for Him).

That doesn't follow the definition of God's glory he himself gave.  To increase in glory he has to increase in knowledge, truth, and light.  God's glory is not defined by his possessions (kingdoms etc).

 

[Thinking]

Assuming that this mortal existence is some sort of test, it doesn't make sense to me to base an infinite existence on a finite period of time with no opportunity for course correction. It also doesn't make sense to have each person take a different test.

[JAHS]

21 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Done!
Fascinating how different the viewpoints of 1960s leaders are from the leaders in the 1800s, or even 30 years earlier.

Here's another one from the 1920's:

"Now I wish to answer one or two queries that undoubtedly have arisen in your minds, and in doing so I wish to read some more scripture. The questions is often asked, "Is it possible for one who attains telestial glory in time in the eternal world to live so well that he may graduate from the telestial and pass into the terrestrial, and then after a season that he may progress from that and be ultimately worthy of the celestial glory?" That is the query that has been asked. I have just read the answer, so far as the telestial group is concerned. "Where God and Christ dwell then cannot come, worlds without end." I take it upon the same basis, the same argument likewise applies to the terrestrial world. Those whose lives have entitled them to terrestrial glory can never gain celestial glory. One who gains possession of the lowest degree of the telestial glory may ultimately arise to the highest degree of that glory, but no provision has been made for promotion from one glory to another. Let us be reasonable about it.  (A Discourse, Melvin J. Ballard. Delivered in the Ogden Tabernacle. September 22, 1922)

[SteveO]

I see this life not as a "test", but rather, a "placement exam".  

I think people who see progression between kingdoms as unfair often forget the temporal "hell" that prophets have always warned us about.  It's that temporal punishment that we want to avoid at all costs.  Afterwards, I have no problem with people being placed in the kingdom that they are best suited for as a starting point--and progress from there.

[CV75]

33 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

35 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Knowledge is key in all these realms, but does not always translate into progress.

Agreed

God does in increase in glory in some ways (continuation of the seeds, creations, etc.), an example of applied knowledge effectuating progress, to which there is no end (for Him).

That doesn't follow the definition of God's glory he himself gave.  To increase in glory he has to increase in knowledge, truth, and light.  God's glory is not defined by his possessions (kingdoms etc).

There are so many definitions of glory, all given by God in revelation (and I take it that He provided them all), that it does follow. No one, even God, can rule/preside/manage His possessions without commensurate knowledge, as in "which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever." (D&C 132:19, but also see where and how else in that section glory is used and described).

Knowledge is also found in the relationships with progressively expanding number of spirits to beget and souls save, and their respective worlds.

Edited January 6, 2017 by CV75

[thesometimesaint]

23 minutes ago, Thinking said:

Assuming that this mortal existence is some sort of test, it doesn't make sense to me to base an infinite existence on a finite period of time with no opportunity for course correction. It also doesn't make sense to have each person take a different test.

It's all the same test. To see what we will repent of.

[carbon dioxide]

If there is progression between kingdoms and outer darkness is a kingdom, then perhaps even the devil still has a chance.

[Benjamin McGuire]

We could add some statements -

President Joseph F. Smith:
 

Quote

Once a person enters these glories there will be eternal progress in the line of each of these particular glories, but the privilege of passing from one to another (though this may be possible for especially gifted and faithful characters) is not provided for. - Joseph F. Smith, Improvement Era 14:87 [November 1910]

President J. Reuben Clark:

Quote

I am not a strict constructionalist, believing that we seal our eternal progress by what we do here. It is my belief that God will save all of His children that he can: and while, if we live unrighteously here, we shall not go to the other side in the same status, so to speak, as those who lived righteously; nevertheless, the unrighteous will have their chance, and in the eons of the eternities that are to follow, they, too, may climb to the destinies to which they who are righteous and serve God, have climbed to those eternities that are to come. - J. Reuben Clark, Church News, 23 April 1960, p. 3

Elder James E. Talmage:

Quote

It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God’s plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for. But if the recipients of a lower glory be enabled to advance, surely the intelligences of higher rank will not be stopped in their progress; and thus we may conclude, that degrees and grades will ever characterize the kingdoms of our God. Eternity is progressive; perfection is relative; the essential feature of God’s living purpose is its associated power of eternal increase. - James E. Talmage, The Articles of Faith [1899 edition] pp. 420-421

One of our challenges today is the understanding that our idea of a three-tiered Celestial Kingdom is a relatively late development in the Church. It wasn't introduced until 1878 (Section 131 isn't published until 1880). We have Orson Hyde's description of the Celestial Kingdom from 1847, with its potential infinite regression of kingdoms. And even with what we have, we have these huge differences. Joseph Smith taught that everyone would live in the Celestial Kingdom (who inherited it) in the same state in which they died - so he tells us in the King Follett Discourse:

Quote

A question may be asked—"Will mothers have their children in eternity?" Yes! yes! Mothers, you shall have your children; for they shall have eternal life; for their debt is paid. There is no damnation awaits them, for they are in the spirit. But as the child dies, so shall it rise from the dead, and be for ever living in the learning of God. It will never grow: it will still be the child, in the same precise form as it appeared before it died out of its mother's arms, but possessing all the intelligence of a God. Children dwell in the mansions of glory and exercise power, but appear in the same form as when on earth. Eternity is full of thrones, upon which dwell thousands of children reigning on thrones of glory, with not one cubit added to their stature.

And of course, we don't really believe this - and we don't imagine a Celestial Kingdom filled with infants. Much of what was taught about the Celestial Kingdom in that first century of Mormonism has been replaced, reunderstood, and remade into what we have now. And while we have gotten rid of many ideas, some of them have remained - creating something of an inconsistent approach that results in these contradicting ideas from leaders in the past. While it is certainly true that we taught that what happened in mortality was what determined where our eternal destination was, we have increasingly complex explanations for this. That infant, to be in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom will have to be married (an issue that we now postpone at least until the Millennia, when we expect to have the necessary revelation to make such a thing happen). It is, in my opinion, far more reasonable to agree with President Clark above - that our future eternities are not so closely tied to the events of mortality as we might think, and that our progression in an eternal context (where in many ways time becomes irrelevant), these ideas of greater or lesser also become irrelevant, since instead of comparison (which will hardly matter - but which mattered a great deal in the original imaginings of the Celestial Kingdom held by the early Saints) we will simply mark our existence as some place along a spectrum moving us from where we were to where we are going. And we see this in the B.H. Roberts statement, with his not to a temporal component (time) that likely has little meaning in an eternal existence. Progression, eternal progression, isn't likely to be some kind of race, where our glory is determined by our position in that Celestial Hierarchy. That idea was (at least doctrinally) tossed out the window when we consolidated the Celestial Kingdom into three degrees, and replaced the artificial structure of kingdoms and sub-kingdoms created by sealings of adoption with an ordering based on our biological family ordering (implemented in 1894, when the Church began performing sealings of children to their deceased parents - which couldn't begin until we started performing proxy priesthood ordinations in 1877, IIRC).

In some ways, our current model of Celestial Glory is woefully incomplete. When it was first introduced, the lowest degree in the Celestial Kingdom was for the unmarried. The highest for the polygamous. Without polygamy, we had a period where this was repurposed (which leads to something closer to our current model of believe) where priesthood became a more prominent aspect. And at the bottom were those who could not be sealed into the family of God (those denied the priesthood). Today, we end up with this legacy model, but really no clear doctrine of what defines the second degree in the Celestial Kingdom. And we have this challenge where we recognize the challenge of change outside of mortality. The unmarried in mortality who attains to the Celestial Kingdom can only get (we say) the lowest degree - but for them to achieve the upward mobility that no one denies (within a kingdom) we have to allow for them to find an eternal spouse, and so to be able to progress. And in both cases, this is done through events that will not happen in mortality.

I suspect that for some of us who what to spend eternity with a spouse who might not be as spiritually progressed as ourselves, rather than being required to give them up and take another, we will be able to wait for them to progress to the Celestial Kingdom so that our journey together may continue.

Short of explicit revelation on the topic, I find the notion of eternal progression (for all of God's children) made possible through an infinite atonement far more reasonable than (as President Clark suggest) the constructionist view that the only thing that matters is this brief mortality in which we find ourselves, and the limited perspective that it creates that we can only surpass when we leave mortality behind.

Ben McGuire

[thesometimesaint]

51 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

If there is progression between kingdoms and outer darkness is a kingdom, then perhaps even the devil still has a chance.

Even he has a chance to repent. But he will not.

[CV75]

14 minutes ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

Short of explicit revelation on the topic, I find the notion of eternal progression (for all of God's children) made possible through an infinite atonement far more reasonable than (as President Clark suggest) the constructionist view that the only thing that matters is this brief mortality in which we find ourselves, and the limited perspective that it creates that we can only surpass when we leave mortality behind.

President Clark's reference to "the eons of the eternities that are to follow" could refer to the transpiration of progress in the spirit world prior to the resurrected world.

[bluebell]

The scripture verses about how this life is the day of our probation and no work can be done after the judgment makes me think that there is no progression between kingdoms.  I don't have much of an opinion on it though.

[Benjamin McGuire]

Quote

President Clark's reference to "the eons of the eternities that are to follow" could refer to the transpiration of progress in the spirit world prior to the resurrected world.

Perhaps, but it seems really, really unlikely doesn't it. I can't think of anywhere, where any of the past leaders of the Church wrote about the idea of the time between the death of the mortal body and the resurrection being eons of eternities long. We have a first and a second resurrection - and they are usually mentioned as fairly discrete points in time (as we understand time). This discussion about progress between kingdoms has been going on for a very long time (ever since we really produced the three degrees of glory). The current view of no progression is only the majority view because of the influence of the speculative writings of Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R. McConkie, and not for some other reason (like, say, a revelation on the subject).

Ben McGuire

[bluebell]

From all of the contradictory quotes on the subject, it makes me think that this is not a subject where revelation has been given.

[JLHPROF]

14 minutes ago, bluebell said:

From all of the contradictory quotes on the subject, it makes me think that this is not a subject where revelation has been given.

Agreed.
Which is why a little speculation and logical reasoning is fun.  There's no danger of going against the word of the Lord on the subject.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

Perhaps, but it seems really, really unlikely doesn't it. I can't think of anywhere, where any of the past leaders of the Church wrote about the idea of the time between the death of the mortal body and the resurrection being eons of eternities long. We have a first and a second resurrection - and they are usually mentioned as fairly discrete points in time (as we understand time). This discussion about progress between kingdoms has been going on for a very long time (ever since we really produced the three degrees of glory). The current view of no progression is only the majority view because of the influence of the speculative writings of Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R. McConkie, and not for some other reason (like, say, a revelation on the subject).

Ben McGuire

But here is something they haven’t mentioned (as long as we’re taking into consideration all that the prophets have said all along, and that our understanding of time changes with the times, the culture and by personality): The limiting factor in my mind of progress in the resurrected state is not how long it takes but the principle of the delegated “ministrations” with their prescribed media.

To illustrate, a missionary can bring the message by the power of the Holy Ghost to a person, and by that same power that person can receive a witness of the message. But the missionary cannot perform or give him the covenants, and without them, the convert remains in the “telestial” kingdom”. Only the mission president can do that, allowing the convert to enter the “terrestrial” kingdom. But the mission president cannot perform or give him the temple covenants, and the member stays in this “terrestrial world” until a bishop and stake president can approve him to enter the temple and receive those “celestial kingdom” covenants under they ministration of the temple president. The Lord’s servants move the member along the path of progress from one kingdom to the next, and the continuity of ministration is designed into those worlds.

The same example follows in teaching a child of record; he remains in the telestial world until the bishop provides the covenants under his delegation, and in the terrestrial world until the temple president provides the covenants under his delegation. The same pattern goes on in the spirit world with acceptance of temple work done in a person’s behalf.

A fulness of testimony (“fulness of the Holy Spirit” or telestial glory) by those who have been baptized (and who are of terrestrial glory) does not a baptism make; a fullness of baptism by “those who have received of his fullness” (i.e. of a celestial glory) does not a temple marriage make. Temple marriages and other work comes from beyond the veil (both literally and symbolically), i.e. from the exalted kingdom.

(I probably spent too much time on that considering what follows, but wanted to give progression its full due).

However, in the resurrected state, that continuity does not exist. While the Prophet, holding the keys for all offices in this world delegates authority from apostles to members, and thus mingles with the rest of humanity no matter how base to share with all the fulness of what he has to offer, the Father does not descend (by virtue of sharing His fullness) into the terrestrial world, and the Christ does not descend into the telestial world (only angels do). Jesus followed this pattern according to the vision in D&C 138:19, 20, where the spirit world is a continuation of sorts, with some stricter segregation of the wicked than this one. The respective ministrations in the respective kingdoms are bound and limited by the medium through which they are served, so the inhabitants cannot possibly pass from one resurrected kingdom to the next.

Edited January 6, 2017 by CV75

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

We could add some statements -

President Joseph F. Smith:
 the privilege of passing from one to another (though this may be possible for especially gifted and faithful characters) is not provided for
 
President J. Reuben Clark:
 nevertheless, the unrighteous will have their chance, and in the eons of the eternities that are to follow, they, too, may climb to the destinies to which they who are righteous and serve God, have climbed

Elder James E. Talmage:
advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for. But if the recipients of a lower glory be enabled to advance, surely the intelligences of higher rank will not be stopped in their progress; and thus we may conclude, that degrees and grades will ever characterize the kingdoms of our God

 

Love these!
Just goes to show that there is one doctrine where the brethren are distinctly divided.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I'm big into good weather and good climate, do you think the Celestial Kingdom has better weather and climate than the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms? I assume the Garden of Eden was a nice warm climate because of the wardrobe choices for Adam and Eve.