Progress between Kingdoms (a speculative poll)

[pogi]

6 hours ago, Gray said:

To me it doesn't make sense to have eternity decided with finality by one's actions in the span of 8-90 years. 

It is suggested that most Mormons believe in the absolute foreknowledge of God.  In that context, it does make sense. 

However, if one's actions can ever be improved upon, is there ever a time to decide with finality?  

To take this even further - to say that a persons actions can be ever improved upon, is not to say that they will be ever improved upon.

Any judgement of finality suggests that the Lord must have the foreknowledge to know if the individual will improve over time or not. Else final judgement would not be perfectly just and merciful.  

Something to think about.

[Benjamin Seeker]

double post

Edited January 7, 2017 by Benjamin Seeker

[Benjamin Seeker]

18 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

No, but Brigham Young, Hyrum Smith, and Wilford Woodruff all are.

Also, it's very possible that Hyrum was echoing what he heard his brother say, and Hyrum and Brigham were both in Joseph's closest confidence. It should also be noted that none of the anti-progress quotes are from early church members or anyone who personally heard Joseph teach.

Judging by Hyrum and Brigham's 1855 quote (still kind of early), if one were forced to guess what Joseph said about the matter, if he did say anything, pro-progression would be the safer guess.

I'm not inferring that Joseph Smith should be viewed as the authority on the matter, particularly since he isn't documented saying anything about it, but I am suggesting it's possible and even likely that he believed it was possible, and that is worth some consideration in the debate.

[Benjamin Seeker]

double post

Edited January 7, 2017 by Benjamin Seeker

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

Also, it's very possible that Hyrum was echoing what he heard his brother say, and Hyrum and Brigham were both in Joseph's closest confidence. It should also be noted that none of the anti-progress quotes are from early church members or anyone who personally heard Joseph teach.

Judging by Hyrum and Brigham's 1855 quote (still kind of early), if one were forced to guess what Joseph said about the matter, if he did say anything, pro-progression would be the safer guess.

I'm not inferring that Joseph Smith should be viewed as the authority on the matter, particularly since he isn't documented saying anything about it, but I am suggesting it's possible and even likely that he believed it was possible, and that is worth some consideration in the debate.

Well, our knowledge of the three degrees of glory come mainly from D&C 76, a vision that Joseph and Sidney had, and D&C 88, a revelation to Joseph.

Since he was the author of these words (presumably with inspiration) ANY interpretation of these words becomes 2nd hand at best.
So unless one of the dozen or so General Authorities quoted on this thread on both sides of the debate had a secondary D&C 76 vision, their words are just opinions.
President Kimball has no more authority of the topic than President Young.  President Young has no more authority on the topic than President Kimball.
UNLESS President Young was taught his belief by the 1st hand eyewitness of these kingdoms, Joseph Smith.

Then barring the hypothetical secondary vision of these kingdoms President Young would have more authority on the topic than President Kimball.
But we have no way of knowing these things.  So we all read our scriptures and come to the best conclusions we can.

Some of Joseph's teachings in addition might include:
D&C 19:6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.
7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

"There is never a time when the spirit is too old to approach God. All are within the reach of pardoning mercy, who have not committed the unpardonable sin, which hath no forgiveness, neither in this world, nor in the world to come."  History of the Church, 4:425–26
 

[JLHPROF]

19 hours ago, CV75 said:

 the Father does not descend (by virtue of sharing His fullness) into the terrestrial world

True

and the Christ does not descend into the telestial world (only angels do).

True.  But for what purpose?  What is Christ's mission?  What is his goal?  Why would Christ spend time ministering among Terrestrial beings?
Why did he do so here?  To lead them to the Father.

The respective ministrations in the respective kingdoms are bound and limited by the medium through which they are served, so the inhabitants cannot possibly pass from one resurrected kingdom to the next.

Nobody is saying a Terrestrial being can eventually enter into the Celestial Kingdom where the father lives.  Scripture is clear that cannot happen.

But nothing in scripture precludes a Terrestrial Kingdom (much as this earth will be during the  Millennium) becoming Celestialized (much as this earth will be after the Millennium).  And nothing in scripture precludes the ability of a being with a mind and intelligence from eventually as eternities roll on gaining sufficient light and knowledge to become Celestial either.  As long as the ability to learn exists progression cannot be limited to any finite space.

It is in the combining of these two separate issues that leads to the McConkie/Kimball position.
Joseph taught "D&C 130:19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come."
Just because a Terrestrial being can never catch up with those in the Celestial doesn't stop them being able to be Celestial once those others have moved on ahead.

 

 

Edited January 7, 2017 by JLHPROF

[CV75]

12 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

 the Christ does not descend into the telestial world (only angels do).

But nothing in scripture precludes a Terrestrial Kingdom (much as this earth will be during the  Millennium) becoming Celestialized (much as this earth will be after the Millennium).  And nothing in scripture precludes the ability of a being with a mind and intelligence from eventually as eternities roll on gaining sufficient light and knowledge to become Celestial either.  As long as the ability to learn exists progression cannot be limited to any finite space.

It is in the combining of these two separate issues that leads to the McConkie/Kimball position.
Joseph taught "D&C 130:19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come."
Just because a Terrestrial being can never catch up with those in the Celestial doesn't stop them being able to be Celestial once those others have moved on ahead.

Assuming the frame of reference is the post-resurrection condition:

Christ continues as the Intermediary, but now for the purpose of sharing a portion of the Father’s fullness. The terrestrials will no longer / can no longer be led to the fullness, as they have proven time (mortal lifespan) and time (spirit world) again. So He gives them the portion they are willing to receive (including the ability to learn), with all the love He has to offer, and they are happy with that. The resurrection is the estate of reward, and no longer a proving ground (as in the probationary estate).

Having wills, we do not learn and obtain glory by osmosis, but by testing. Terrestrials have received all the opportunity and ability to learn that they are willing to receive, and won’t get it by osmosis in the presence of the Christ. When all there is to osmote is a only portion of the fullness, they can’t progress any further anyway.

[Benjamin McGuire]

Actually, we do have a doctrine wherein we explain how God is able to come to a terrestrial and a telestial place. We call it transfiguration. What do we think happened when God the Father appeared to Joseph Smith in the telestial world? And of course, the only ordinances we teach that are required for entrance into the Celestial Kingdom are baptism and confirmation - ordinances that we provide (in theory) for everyone. So in the context of progression between kingdoms, there isn't anything that is lacking for progress except the condition of the individual. When Lehi speaks of how we become like God, he speaks of it in terms of our becoming persons who act and are not acted upon - absolute agency is for Lehi, one of the core attributes of deity. And for us, he suggests, we can only obtain that absolute agency through the resurrection (which we all receive) and the atonement. He tells us (verse 26):

Quote

And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.

In the context of Lehi's remarks, our question shifts to whether or not the punishment of those in the Terrestrial and the Telestial Kingdoms has an end. And this is an interesting point - because of course, we have strong doctrinal indicators that this belief was held by the early leaders of the Church. It was held particularly in the doctrine of having one's calling and election made sure. Where (after receiving this ordinance) you could still sin, and you would be punished for those sins, but, once that punishment had ended, you were free to move into a place of glory in the Celestial Kingdom. Isn't that how we read D&C 132:6 -

Quote

and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.

Or, as McConkie explains it in his New Testament commentary:

Quote

 

But suppose such persons become disaffected and the spirit of repentance leaves them--which is a seldom and almost unheard of eventuality--still, what then? The answer is--and the revelations and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith so recite!--they must then pay the penalty of their own sins, for the blood of Christ will not cleanse them. Or if they commit murder or adultery, they lose their promised inheritance because these sins are exempt from the sealing promises. Or if they commit the unpardonable sin, they become sons of perdition.

 

So I can see a doctrinal basis for the idea that sin (except the unpardonable sin) generates a limited punishment. The only unlimited punishment is that given to the sons of perdition. Apart from those things that qualify us for perdition, there isn't anything that is capable of keeping us from the Celestial Kingdom - and that is without the benefit of an infinite atonement; imagine how much easier it is with the benefit of that infinite atonement. So I think that there is no doctrinal statement or theology that prevents upward mobility (as all of those leaders who favored the idea have noted).

Last September, in the discussion about politics, I read an interesting blog that investigated the idea that some of our political views are determined by our view of family. That is, we see the President as a father figure, and our views are often influenced by our own views of family - should the father figure be the stern disciplinarian? Should he play more of a nurturing, teaching role? You can read it here:

http://www.npr.org/2016/09/13/493615864/when-it-comes-to-our-politics-family-matters

There is a fascinating corollary of course for this discussion. We call God "Our Father", and I think that these same kinds of issues apply in our individuals theological views. Do we see God as more of a strict disciplinarian or more of a nurturing loving parent? Is this part of the shift in views that we see sometimes in scripture (from Old to New Testament for example)? I expect that if we looked in those terms, we would see a number of different beliefs that correspond with beliefs on this idea of eternal progression - that is, perhaps our views here are connected as much to our experience of family in mortality as anything else ....

Ben McGuire

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

Actually, we do have a doctrine wherein we explain how God is able to come to a terrestrial and a telestial place. We call it transfiguration. What do we think happened when God the Father appeared to Joseph Smith in the telestial world? And of course, the only ordinances we teach that are required for entrance into the Celestial Kingdom are baptism and confirmation - ordinances that we provide (in theory) for everyone. So in the context of progression between kingdoms, there isn't anything that is lacking for progress except the condition of the individual. When Lehi speaks of how we become like God, he speaks of it in terms of our becoming persons who act and are not acted upon - absolute agency is for Lehi, one of the core attributes of deity. And for us, he suggests, we can only obtain that absolute agency through the resurrection (which we all receive) and the atonement. He tells us (verse 26):

In the context of Lehi's remarks, our question shifts to whether or not the punishment of those in the Terrestrial and the Telestial Kingdoms has an end. And this is an interesting point - because of course, we have strong doctrinal indicators that this belief was held by the early leaders of the Church. It was held particularly in the doctrine of having one's calling and election made sure. Where (after receiving this ordinance) you could still sin, and you would be punished for those sins, but, once that punishment had ended, you were free to move into a place of glory in the Celestial Kingdom. Isn't that how we read D&C 132:6 -

Or, as McConkie explains it in his New Testament commentary:

So I can see a doctrinal basis for the idea that sin (except the unpardonable sin) generates a limited punishment. The only unlimited punishment is that given to the sons of perdition. Apart from those things that qualify us for perdition, there isn't anything that is capable of keeping us from the Celestial Kingdom - and that is without the benefit of an infinite atonement; imagine how much easier it is with the benefit of that infinite atonement. So I think that there is no doctrinal statement or theology that prevents upward mobility (as all of those leaders who favored the idea have noted).

Last September, in the discussion about politics, I read an interesting blog that investigated the idea that some of our political views are determined by our view of family. That is, we see the President as a father figure, and our views are often influenced by our own views of family - should the father figure be the stern disciplinarian? Should he play more of a nurturing, teaching role? You can read it here:

http://www.npr.org/2016/09/13/493615864/when-it-comes-to-our-politics-family-matters

There is a fascinating corollary of course for this discussion. We call God "Our Father", and I think that these same kinds of issues apply in our individuals theological views. Do we see God as more of a strict disciplinarian or more of a nurturing loving parent? Is this part of the shift in views that we see sometimes in scripture (from Old to New Testament for example)? I expect that if we looked in those terms, we would see a number of different beliefs that correspond with beliefs on this idea of eternal progression - that is, perhaps our views here are connected as much to our experience of family in mortality as anything else ....

Ben McGuire

Yes, I’m talking about the presence of the Father in the resurrected worlds, and not about His presence in Eden, our current telestial earth, the Millennial earth, or visions. The resurrection is where I see the form and media of ministering to God’s children changing from these other venues just as our spirits and elements (bodies) change as a result of transitioning from being “separably” connected to inseparably connected.

I see the punishment for sins as a different transaction from the negotiated weight of glory rewarded according to one’s willingness to receive. So while the punishment is “God’s punishment” and has an end (the punishment of a kind Father, in consideration of satisfied justice and mercy), the reward is final or permanent (the reward of a kind Father, who will not extract His child’s will but will grant all requests in consideration of satisfied justice and mercy). In the resurrection it is not “God’s reward” when it is not a fullness of His reward; it is a terrestrial or telestial reward. As opposed to punishment, the limit to a reward is not in duration but in glory.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

The only ordinances we teach that are required for entrance into the Celestial Kingdom are baptism and confirmation - ordinances that we provide (in theory) for everyone. So in the context of progression between kingdoms, there isn't anything that is lacking for progress except the condition of the individual.

This.  Exactly.
A Terrestrial being who has a valid baptism, even a vicarious one, and has eternity upon eternity in the Terrestrial Kingdom to learn, has every qualification necessary for entrance into A Celestial glory, even if they can never catch up with our Savior and Heavenly Father worlds without end. 

Their sins have been paid for so it cannot be an issue of imperfection or violation of justice.
The law required to enter a Celestial glory is accepting the atonement and receiving baptism.
So what do they lack when they are ready?

[thesometimesaint]

8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

This.  Exactly.
A Terrestrial being who has a valid baptism, even a vicarious one, and has eternity upon eternity in the Terrestrial Kingdom to learn, has every qualification necessary for entrance into A Celestial glory, even if they can never catch up with our Savior and Heavenly Father worlds without end. 

Their sins have been paid for so it cannot be an issue of imperfection or violation of justice.
The law required to enter a Celestial glory is accepting the atonement and receiving baptism.
So what do they lack when they are ready?

If Eternal Progression is real. Then by the time they have learned enough to be in the next higher Kingdom. The one's already in that higher Kingdom have moved on. it is like moving into a house where the previous residents are no longer there.

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

If Eternal Progression is real. Then by the time they have learned enough to be in the next higher Kingdom. The one's already in that higher Kingdom have moved on. it is like moving into a house where the previous residents are no longer there.

There is nothing to indicate that people will all learn at the same speed and level and thus always stay in the same relative position to those who took the step before them.   Perhaps like in mortality, people can catch up by putting their heart and mind more fully into the work...and who knows,if the Atonement can reset us spiritually in terms of past sins, perhaps it or something like it can connect with us when we are ready to provide a flow of knowledge and wisdom that essentially puts us truly as one with God and not as someone who is just always barely keeping up the pace, getting glimpses of God as he passes over the next hill.

Why wouldn't God and those who share his attitude reach out to those who wish to join his family more fully in the future and grab them to his heart just as he does at the time of judgment for thos who seek the exaltation he desires to give them?

There is no need for an eternal penalty because at sometime in the past one was slow in repenting.  It is just another version imo of the eternal, unbridgeable gap between God and his creatures concept.

If God has promised us to be one with him if we accept the Atonement, why not believe him and reject 'Eternity as a race one will never win' belief? (Winning meaning being truly one with God)

I am not saying we can catch up by 'running ' harder, I am saying God can put us where he will on the path, including by his side, if we lay ourselves fully in his hands.

Edited January 7, 2017 by Calm

[JLHPROF]

7 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

If Eternal Progression is real. Then by the time they have learned enough to be in the next higher Kingdom. The one's already in that higher Kingdom have moved on. it is like moving into a house where the previous residents are no longer there.

Yes.
I don't think anyone has ever denied that.  The idea that there are 3 fixed levels and that we are stuck at those levels for eternity is illogical in every way.

What happens to those who inherit a Celestialized earth?

• D&C 130:9 This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ’s.
  10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby
  things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;

What happens when we become exalted to those who are already exalted?

• Joseph Smith - What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. My Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to My Father, so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt Him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the tracks of His Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all His children. It is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn some of the first principles of the gospel, about which so much hath been said.  When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them.

Of course if a Terrestrial being finally after eternities of learning and progression can become Celestialized then "the one's already in that higher Kingdom have moved on".
That is why D&C 76:112 is still correct - And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.
They can never catch up, but progression is still eternal.

[VideoGameJunkie]

1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said:

If Eternal Progression is real. Then by the time they have learned enough to be in the next higher Kingdom. The one's already in that higher Kingdom have moved on. it is like moving into a house where the previous residents are no longer there.

But eternity is not a race to see who is higher up.

[CV75]

3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

This.  Exactly.
A Terrestrial being who has a valid baptism, even a vicarious one, and has eternity upon eternity in the Terrestrial Kingdom to learn, has every qualification necessary for entrance into A Celestial glory, even if they can never catch up with our Savior and Heavenly Father worlds without end. 

Their sins have been paid for so it cannot be an issue of imperfection or violation of justice.
The law required to enter a Celestial glory is accepting the atonement and receiving baptism.
So what do they lack when they are ready?

But it seems they do stop learning (gaining knowledge): “they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.” Like the earth, their bodies (element which is quickened by a terrestrial glory) “abide the power by which it is quickened.” “Abide” means “obey” – It cannot abide a glory greater than that by which it was quickened (D&C 88:22-34).

Now these verses in Section 88 might be construed to mean that once a lesser law is kept, the one doing he abiding discovers that same law entails a provision that permits advancement ahead to a higher law, and so on unto perfection (verses 34 and 58). The problem is one cannot abide any other condition than that which he was quickened into, and these “courses are fixed” (verse 44). “Courses” includes the “fulness” of the various degrees of glory, and kingdom-specific "bounds and conditions." Light is shared from higher to lower kingdoms (verse 43) in line with the “ministration” principle from Section 76, and following the same fixed course, bounds and conditions.

I think there is so much opportunity between this life and the spirit world by virtue of the Atonement and the ability of Christ to draw all men after Him that progression between resurrected kingdoms is unnecessary. After all, the Atonement is infinite and eternal in this world. This world (including spirit world) is where the miracle of conversion takes place. After that (the resurrection), there is plenty yet to be accomplished in the way of "healing" as we abide in our quickened kingdom of glory and progress in that sense (D&C 112:13; 3 Nephi 9:13 / Isaiah 6:10).

[JLHPROF]

27 minutes ago, CV75 said:

 the Atonement is infinite and eternal in this world.

[CV75]

3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

 the Atonement is infinite and eternal in this world.

Let’s look at the only two places in scripture where the phrase “infinite an eternal” is used in relation to the Lord’s Atonement (D&C 20 and Alma 34):

In D&C 20, God (the one God) is infinite and eternal, as stated in verses 17 and 28. Everything described in the verses between refer to the atonement as it applies in this world, and the verses after (29 onward) describe what must be done in this world to benefit from it.

In Alma 34, the atonement is described as a great and last sacrifice of the infinite and eternal God (verses 10 and 14). After describing in some detail how to benefit from it by our actions in this life [world], we get the oft-repeated admonition, “For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors. [NOTE: Jesus performed the labor of the atonement in this life]…do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity [the resurrection], behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. …and this is the final state…”

Now if you want to concentrate on finding a 9-word snippet to take out of context and laugh at, be my guest (it’s your thread), but where is the thirst for learning in that, and why sabotage your invitation to your fellow board members to speculate?

[kllindley]

I know it's not doctrine or a quote from a prophet or apostle. However, this story was a catalyst for a profound shift in the way I looked at eternity. I'm not claiming that any aspect of this is accurate or "true." Just that it represents a tremendous amount of thought and pondering into the situation. More than I had ever before devoted. 

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V43_N03_188.pdf&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwjPuYHS2rHRAhUI-mMKHZOwDwcQFggpMAE&sig2=C7ykS_W-VpiCV4L5tin77g&usg=AFQjCNG9KxevgZjZBnXKkJ13NvZkgDmTKw

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, kllindley said:

I know it's not doctrine or a quote from a prophet or apostle. However, this story was a catalyst for a profound shift in the way I looked at eternity. I'm not claiming that any aspect of this is accurate or "true." Just that it represents a tremendous amount of thought and pondering into the situation. More than I had ever before devoted. 

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V43_N03_188.pdf&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwjPuYHS2rHRAhUI-mMKHZOwDwcQFggpMAE&sig2=C7ykS_W-VpiCV4L5tin77g&usg=AFQjCNG9KxevgZjZBnXKkJ13NvZkgDmTKw

No offence, but after reading only two pages, I was a little upset at this thought process. I must not really be much of a LDS anymore. I'm so far removed from this belief of these kingdoms and loved ones separated.

[Glenn101]

6 hours ago, Tacenda said:

No offence, but after reading only two pages, I was a little upset at this thought process. I must not really be much of a LDS anymore. I'm so far removed from this belief of these kingdoms and loved ones separated.

Those thought processes are those of a mortal, finite being applying mortal, finite concepts, such as time, to an infinite situation. We humans are not able to do that very well (understatement of the eternities).

The mainstream Christian theology of there only being two classifications of "sheep" and "goats" or heaven and he'll is much more draconian in concept. 

 

Glenn

[thesometimesaint]

18 hours ago, Calm said:

There is nothing to indicate that people will all learn at the same speed and level and thus always stay in the same relative position to those who took the step before them.   Perhaps like in mortality, people can catch up by putting their heart and mind more fully into the work...and who knows,if the Atonement can reset us spiritually in terms of past sins, perhaps it or something like it can connect with us when we are ready to provide a flow of knowledge and wisdom that essentially puts us truly as one with God and not as someone who is just always barely keeping up the pace, getting glimpses of God as he passes over the next hill.

Why wouldn't God and those who share his attitude reach out to those who wish to join his family more fully in the future and grab them to his heart just as he does at the time of judgment for thos who seek the exaltation he desires to give them?

There is no need for an eternal penalty because at sometime in the past one was slow in repenting.  It is just another version imo of the eternal, unbridgeable gap between God and his creatures concept.

If God has promised us to be one with him if we accept the Atonement, why not believe him and reject 'Eternity as a race one will never win' belief? (Winning meaning being truly one with God)

I am not saying we can catch up by 'running ' harder, I am saying God can put us where he will on the path, including by his side, if we lay ourselves fully in his hands.

There is progression within each Kingdom so relative position can change, but there will never come a time when a person within one Kingdom can advance/regress to another Kingdom.

He wants to share with everyone,. It is we who choose what we will accept from him. Now isthe time to prepare to meet God. If we decide to not meet his demands there is nothing he will do. It isn't punishment, everyone is given the same opportunity in this life or the next. It is who choose.

Accepting the Atonement is what we are doing. Just depends on how much of that Atonement we want. IE: God offers us a Banana Split Sunday. But we only want just one scoop of ice cream. God isn't going to force us to take the whole Banana Split Sunday.

[RevTestament]

I find the presentation here to be unnecessarily confusing. D & C says:

 1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;

 2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];

 3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.

 4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.

Those in the terrestrial kingdom cannot have an increase to the celestial. Those in the telestial cannot have an increase to the celestial, and there is nothing to show once one is judged and is in the celestial kingdom, they can progress to become Elohim, etc. These things are only possible in probation (including the spirit worlds) - not while "out of the world/s."

 

 

 

Edited January 8, 2017 by RevTestament

[Calm]

8 hours ago, Tacenda said:

No offence, but after reading only two pages, I was a little upset at this thought process. I must not really be much of a LDS anymore. I'm so far removed from this belief of these kingdoms and loved ones separated.

Read the ending if you can't make it all the way through.

I don't believe it though.

Edited January 8, 2017 by Calm

[Tacenda]

19 hours ago, Calm said:

There is nothing to indicate that people will all learn at the same speed and level and thus always stay in the same relative position to those who took the step before them.   Perhaps like in mortality, people can catch up by putting their heart and mind more fully into the work...and who knows,if the Atonement can reset us spiritually in terms of past sins, perhaps it or something like it can connect with us when we are ready to provide a flow of knowledge and wisdom that essentially puts us truly as one with God and not as someone who is just always barely keeping up the pace, getting glimpses of God as he passes over the next hill.

Why wouldn't God and those who share his attitude reach out to those who wish to join his family more fully in the future and grab them to his heart just as he does at the time of judgment for thos who seek the exaltation he desires to give them?

There is no need for an eternal penalty because at sometime in the past one was slow in repenting.  It is just another version imo of the eternal, unbridgeable gap between God and his creatures concept.

If God has promised us to be one with him if we accept the Atonement, why not believe him and reject 'Eternity as a race one will never win' belief? (Winning meaning being truly one with God)

I am not saying we can catch up by 'running ' harder, I am saying God can put us where he will on the path, including by his side, if we lay ourselves fully in his hands.

This!

And I will add, we need to remember the parable of the prodigal son. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke+15%3A11-32&version=NI

And not be the sibling that is angry about their brother's/sister's great homecoming or ability to be forgiven and join their family again.

[thesometimesaint]

18 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

But eternity is not a race to see who is higher up.

It is a race. Not between us and God, but a race with ourselves. Some will say to themselves this is good enough I don't want any more. Some will want more, but not the fullness. Some will want the fullness. God is just honoring our wishes.