Should I attend Church?

[stemelbow]

It's been a long time since I've felt like I've gotten anything out of my attendance at Church.  I've always put the onus on me when it comes to getting something out of Church and it usually gets me thinking, while I'm there, about how I can utilize what's coming at me.  I attend the full block each week and some who are close to me wonder why I do.  It remains my method of worship--that's the main reason.  But I admit the meetings are pointless to me, other than just giving me time to sit and ponder.  I can't really contribute.  I used to try but it really just upset people, so I mostly stay silent. 

Anyway, what's your take on someone who doesn't really care for the messages shared and can't really participate?  Should he even be there?  For the most part I feel out of place, now, and don't really feel welcome anyway.  But, to be fair to me, I don't see myself doing the worship thing without Church. 

Thanks for your thoughts.  I'm curious if anyone else feels similar too. 

[thesometimesaint]

After some 45 years in the Church I can honestly say that what I get out  of it is directly proportional to what I put into it.

[stemelbow]

9 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

After some 45 years in the Church I can honestly say that what I get out  of it is directly proportional to what I put into it.

Fair enough.  I've had a different experience.  I try.  I'm not sure what more I can do. 

[smac97]

16 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

It's been a long time since I've felt like I've gotten anything out of my attendance at Church. 

I think that getting something "out of" attendance at church often correlates with what we - individually and collectively - "put into" it.

16 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I've always put the onus on me when it comes to getting something out of Church and it usually gets me thinking, while I'm there, about how I can utilize what's coming at me. 

Okay.  

16 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I attend the full block each week and some who are close to me wonder why I do.  It remains my method of worship--that's the main reason. 

I go principally to take the Sacrament.  I also go to strengthen the cohesion I have with my fellow Saints.  This usually comes through regular attendance, serving in and magnifying my callings, and socializing with and getting to know those in my ward.

16 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

But I admit the meetings are pointless to me, other than just giving me time to sit and ponder.  I can't really contribute. 

Why are the meetings "pointless to {you}?"  

16 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I used to try but it really just upset people, so I mostly stay silent. 

That seems like an odd response.  I've never seen Latter-day Saints get "upset" at people who want to "contribute" to LDS meetings.

16 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Anyway, what's your take on someone who doesn't really care for the messages shared and can't really participate? 

I encourage you to keep going.

16 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Should he even be there? 

Yes.  "They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick."

16 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

For the most part I feel out of place, now, and don't really feel welcome anyway. 

Latter-day Saints should not be a stumblingblock to the progression of others, but sometimes we mess up.  Hence the need for each of us to constantly exercise our "forgiveness" muscles (on the one hand, and on the other we exercise our "repentance" muscles).

16 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

But, to be fair to me, I don't see myself doing the worship thing without Church. 

Yes.  In the LDS paradigm, compliance with the various commandments to keep the Sabbath Day holy (Mosiah 13:16 ("Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy"), D&C 68:29 ("And the inhabitants of Zion shall also observe the Sabbath day to keep it holy"), and D&C 59:9 ("Thou shalt go to the house of prayer and offer up thy sacraments upon my holy day")) and partake of the Sacrament ("As often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew [i.e., testify of] the Lord's death till he come" (1 Cor. 11:26), "It is expedient that the church meet together often to partake of bread and wine in the remembrance of the Lord Jesus" (D&C 20:75)) requires regular attendance at Sunday services.

I think there are more blessings given to the Saints than partaking of the Sacrament (blessings which accrue through service to others, many forms of which involve participation in the LDS community), but that is the main reason.

16 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Thanks for your thoughts.  I'm curious if anyone else feels similar too. 

I think a person's relationship to "the Church" has many analogs to a person's relationship with his/her spouse.  Both relationships are voluntary.  Both have "ups" and "downs."  Both require real, consistent, concerted work to maintain.  Both require lots of forgiveness and lots of repentance.  

Thanks,

-Smac

[CV75]

37 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

It's been a long time since I've felt like I've gotten anything out of my attendance at Church.  I've always put the onus on me when it comes to getting something out of Church and it usually gets me thinking, while I'm there, about how I can utilize what's coming at me.  I attend the full block each week and some who are close to me wonder why I do.  It remains my method of worship--that's the main reason.  But I admit the meetings are pointless to me, other than just giving me time to sit and ponder.  I can't really contribute.  I used to try but it really just upset people, so I mostly stay silent. 

Anyway, what's your take on someone who doesn't really care for the messages shared and can't really participate?  Should he even be there?  For the most part I feel out of place, now, and don't really feel welcome anyway.  But, to be fair to me, I don't see myself doing the worship thing without Church. 

Thanks for your thoughts.  I'm curious if anyone else feels similar too. 

I would say that by design, taking the sacrament is the most important thing to do, and making that as spiritual an experience as possible might flavor the rest of your participation, whether in looking forward to it (if it is part of the last hour), or carrying with you from the first hour into the other meetings. Feeling out of place and unwelcome is a tough one, but it doesn't take much to brighten another person's day, and that often provides it own reward. Also, sometimes if we look beyond the messengers and even their message, the Spirit can give us the message we need (the Lord always has a place for us and welcomes us).

[smac97]

16 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

After some 45 years in the Church I can honestly say that what I get out  of it is directly proportional to what I put into it.

I generally agree with this.  I think service in the Church is, or should be, freely given, thus making it a "gift," thus making it subject to the precepts in Moroni 7:

• 2 And now I, Mormon, speak unto you, my beloved brethren; and it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, and his holy will, because of the gift of his calling unto me, that I am permitted to speak unto you at this time.
• 3 Wherefore, I would speak unto you that are of the church, that are the peaceable followers of Christ, and that have obtained a sufficient hope by which ye can enter into the rest of the Lord, from this time henceforth until ye shall rest with him in heaven.
• 4 And now my brethren, I judge these things of you because of your peaceable walk with the children of men.
• 5 For I remember the word of God which saith by their works ye shall know them; for if their works be good, then they are good also.
• 6 For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing.
• 7 For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness.
• 8 For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God.
• 9 And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such.

Thanks,

-Smac

[bluebell]

Do you get anything about of taking the sacrament?  

[Tacenda]

50 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

It's been a long time since I've felt like I've gotten anything out of my attendance at Church.  I've always put the onus on me when it comes to getting something out of Church and it usually gets me thinking, while I'm there, about how I can utilize what's coming at me.  I attend the full block each week and some who are close to me wonder why I do.  It remains my method of worship--that's the main reason.  But I admit the meetings are pointless to me, other than just giving me time to sit and ponder.  I can't really contribute.  I used to try but it really just upset people, so I mostly stay silent. 

Anyway, what's your take on someone who doesn't really care for the messages shared and can't really participate?  Should he even be there?  For the most part I feel out of place, now, and don't really feel welcome anyway.  But, to be fair to me, I don't see myself doing the worship thing without Church. 

Thanks for your thoughts.  I'm curious if anyone else feels similar too. 

I feel the same sometimes, but feel there is a lot of good things when weighing whether to go or not. I feel the people are the truest part, and don't know if I believe in most of JS's teachings, so I'm the one that probably doesn't belong. But do feel the spirit for the most part while there. Maybe one day I'll get back to believing the whole package. Now I view it as a religion just like the rest, that I've grown up in and it's in my DNA. 

[Benjamin Seeker]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

It's been a long time since I've felt like I've gotten anything out of my attendance at Church.  I've always put the onus on me when it comes to getting something out of Church and it usually gets me thinking, while I'm there, about how I can utilize what's coming at me.  I attend the full block each week and some who are close to me wonder why I do.  It remains my method of worship--that's the main reason.  But I admit the meetings are pointless to me, other than just giving me time to sit and ponder.  I can't really contribute.  I used to try but it really just upset people, so I mostly stay silent. 

Anyway, what's your take on someone who doesn't really care for the messages shared and can't really participate?  Should he even be there?  For the most part I feel out of place, now, and don't really feel welcome anyway.  But, to be fair to me, I don't see myself doing the worship thing without Church. 

Thanks for your thoughts.  I'm curious if anyone else feels similar too. 

My faith has transitioned over the past year from very literal to something more figurative and more open ended, and I've found myself in tension with various aspects of discussion and talks at church. That being said, I found that I can still contribute by finding the places where there is room for discussion. For example, instead of pointing out that I have qualms with our claim to sole salvational authority, instead, I explain the problems associated with constantly using us-vs.-them comparisons in church and how emphasizing our common ground with those around us will make us more likely to improve the world around us. I'd also point out that our leaders have encouraged us to reach out and work with other churches in the community, and that this will be difficult without recognizing our common faith and common cause. Each week I find more and more areas where I can contribute and uplift my community, which helps me feel like my church attendance is meaningful for me. This also makes me more receptive to the messages at church that I do see as valid, and the more comfortable I become, the less the tension with issues I disagree with seem to be at the forefront of my church experience. I've decided I'm in this for the long haul as this is my family's faith community and one that I cherish despite what I view as flaws and misconceptions, etc.

Edited December 12, 2016 by Benjamin Seeker

[hope_for_things]

57 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

It's been a long time since I've felt like I've gotten anything out of my attendance at Church.  I've always put the onus on me when it comes to getting something out of Church and it usually gets me thinking, while I'm there, about how I can utilize what's coming at me.  I attend the full block each week and some who are close to me wonder why I do.  It remains my method of worship--that's the main reason.  But I admit the meetings are pointless to me, other than just giving me time to sit and ponder.  I can't really contribute.  I used to try but it really just upset people, so I mostly stay silent. 

Anyway, what's your take on someone who doesn't really care for the messages shared and can't really participate?  Should he even be there?  For the most part I feel out of place, now, and don't really feel welcome anyway.  But, to be fair to me, I don't see myself doing the worship thing without Church. 

Thanks for your thoughts.  I'm curious if anyone else feels similar too. 

This is part of why I stopped regularly attending a little over a year ago.  The other big factor for me was I was worried about my motivations for attendance.  I didn't want to attend out of guilt or trying to put on appearances, I wanted to attend for the right reasons.  I haven't regularly been back since.  

I haven't stopped worshiping though, I still read Mormonism and religious books extensively, I also have started doing other things like mindfulness meditation.  However, I will say that I'm still conflicted about my non-attendance.  While I no longer have the angst, I feel like I've lost something socially, and since my wife still attends I miss spending time with her there.  (Some of my kids attend and some don't so its basically a mixed time on Sunday where we all do our own thing).  

Whenever I think about going back, and I have been thinking about this quite a bit lately, I'm conflicted.  I know that I won't fit in like I used to when it comes to my perspectives.  My perspectives will be looked at as threatening the orthodox mindset.  Is there a place for unothodox belief at the local level, or even lack of belief (not sure if I even believe in God anymore).  

[Jeanne]

Taking a short break could answer your questions as to why you go and what you get out of it.  I am speaking a short break...two weeks..as I would never push a thing that is your way of worship.  But..you would know what you miss..and what you don't ..thereby you would understand better your self..what you need, what you want..and touch the part of God that you love the mostest.  Best to you no matter what. 

[stemelbow]

7 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I think that getting something "out of" attendance at church often correlates with what we - individually and collectively - "put into" it.

Okay.  

I go principally to take the Sacrament.  I also go to strengthen the cohesion I have with my fellow Saints.  This usually comes through regular attendance, serving in and magnifying my callings, and socializing with and getting to know those in my ward.

Why are the meetings "pointless to {you}?"  

That seems like an odd response.  I've never seen Latter-day Saints get "upset" at people who want to "contribute" to LDS meetings.

I encourage you to keep going.

Yes.  "They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick."

Latter-day Saints should not be a stumblingblock to the progression of others, but sometimes we mess up.  Hence the need for each of us to constantly exercise our "forgiveness" muscles (on the one hand, and on the other we exercise our "repentance" muscles).

Yes.  In the LDS paradigm, compliance with the various commandments to keep the Sabbath Day holy (Mosiah 13:16 ("Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy"), D&C 68:29 ("And the inhabitants of Zion shall also observe the Sabbath day to keep it holy"), and D&C 59:9 ("Thou shalt go to the house of prayer and offer up thy sacraments upon my holy day")) and partake of the Sacrament ("As often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew [i.e., testify of] the Lord's death till he come" (1 Cor. 11:26), "It is expedient that the church meet together often to partake of bread and wine in the remembrance of the Lord Jesus" (D&C 20:75)) requires regular attendance at Sunday services.

I think there are more blessings given to the Saints than partaking of the Sacrament (blessings which accrue through service to others, many forms of which involve participation in the LDS community), but that is the main reason.

I think a person's relationship to "the Church" has many analogs to a person's relationship with his/her spouse.  Both relationships are voluntary.  Both have "ups" and "downs."  Both require real, consistent, concerted work to maintain.  Both require lots of forgiveness and lots of repentance.  

Thanks,

-Smac

Hey Smac.  Thanks for your comments.  I think you've added much to the discussion.  thanks. 

To you questions:

"Why are the meetings "pointless to {you}?" "

As an example I went to EQ yesterday and the instructor started by saying, I've never had this message in Church before.  Then the whole meeting was a repeat of what we've seen for years.  Yes, service is important.  yes, sometimes our effort goes unnoticed and that's not a bad thing.  Thanks.  I honestly don't know what it is about me, but it bothers me we have so much talk in Church.  It just feels like our meetings' purpose is for us to build ourselves which feels counter-intuitive to Christ's message.  We need not talk about it so much, it feels like to me.  "pointless" is probably overstating it, though. 

"That seems like an odd response.  I've never seen Latter-day Saints get "upset" at people who want to "contribute" to LDS meetings."

It was probably around 2002.  I was asked to teach in EQ.  The topic was given to me, I believe as we discussed the priesthood.  I gave, as it turned out what amounted to, as memory has it, what was found in the Race and the Priesthood essay some 10 or so years later.  I think there was some more info that I had given that was outside of the essay.  I justified the lesson because it related to the rather vague open ended topic given me.  It went well in class, but there came from it many complaints to the bishop.  He called me in and was very upset with me, claiming a number of the brethren were very upset by the happenings in our quorum.  Granted the majority view at that time was much different than when the essay came out.  But hopefully that gives you an idea of what I mean.  Since that time I've had numerous occasions of members telling on me or complaining, and numerous occasions when, in my view, being overly defensive, people spoke up to contest or argue.  I dont' see myself as trying to instigate anger or anything.  I realize my view is often against the norm at church and I've often tried to express that as I've expressed myself in order to avoid upsetting people.  But I've still gotten people upset, I guess. 

 

[stemelbow]

21 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Do you get anything about of taking the sacrament?  

Worship is why I go. 

[stemelbow]

I meant to make this more of a discussion about is there a point in which someone is better off not going, or if the ward is better off if the person does not go, as well.  I'm curious if I'm more of a burden, or if it's me bringing people down type of stuff too. 

Thanks for the comments.  I'll get back to this later. 

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

It's been a long time since I've felt like I've gotten anything out of my attendance at Church.  I've always put the onus on me when it comes to getting something out of Church and it usually gets me thinking, while I'm there, about how I can utilize what's coming at me.  I attend the full block each week and some who are close to me wonder why I do.  It remains my method of worship--that's the main reason.  But I admit the meetings are pointless to me, other than just giving me time to sit and ponder.  I can't really contribute.  I used to try but it really just upset people, so I mostly stay silent. 

Anyway, what's your take on someone who doesn't really care for the messages shared and can't really participate?  Should he even be there?  For the most part I feel out of place, now, and don't really feel welcome anyway.  But, to be fair to me, I don't see myself doing the worship thing without Church. 

Thanks for your thoughts.  I'm curious if anyone else feels similar too. 

I appreciate your candor Stemelbow. I think you and a few others who frequent/lurk on this board feel similarly.

Hopefully, my perspective will offer something. If you believe the restored gospel is true at all, I believe Yeshua expects you to come to church, renew your vows, and be a part of the community. Even though if, like me, you do not agree with everything you hear in SS, learning is only a part of church activities. The gospel is a call to action - to love our fellow man, offer service, and where appropriate share our growing experiences. 

I know, that if like some, I were to share my personal opinions and beliefs concerning the scriptures, they would not necessarily be "welcomed" in SS, etc. I recall once insisting that Moses was not the head of a dispensation, and I raised my hand to point out that he did not "restore" the priesthood, but in fact received it from Jethro. I was not warmly received by the teacher. Abraham was the head of that dispensation of the covenant, imo. So yes, I differ from the "mormon norm" and don't always tow that line so to speak, but I do know Joseph Smith restored the true gospel and priesthood to the earth. The only way to honor him and my Savior is to be a faithful member of this church. At some level I will always have my own opinions and beliefs, and they differ from my wife, my family, etc. That is ok. It doesn't make the gospel untrue. It is just the nature of interpreting the scriptures and growing as a Christian. Even Paul and Peter disagreed, but they did not stop their service to Christ. Invite God to be with you in your daily life, and be blessed.  

[emeliza]

I had to realize that socially, I might get very little from church attendance.  It is incredibly hard to go and spend 3 hours invested somewhere that you do not feel accepted or a part of, but I consider it something I still need to do for various reasons, not in order or importance.

1. Sacrament

2. Example to my kids

3. Learn to get along and make friends with people who feel very differently than I do in most things.

4. Worship

5. Service 

6. In case someone else looks like they might need a friend (goes along with service maybe)

7. I feel like God has directed me to

It is still sometimes a struggle, sometimes though it is just what I need.  I cherish those times.

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I meant to make this more of a discussion about is there a point in which someone is better off not going, or if the ward is better off if the person does not go, as well.  I'm curious if I'm more of a burden, or if it's me bringing people down type of stuff too. 

Thanks for the comments.  I'll get back to this later. 

Stemelbow, I really believe there are others going through the same as you in your ward. I highly doubt the ward would want you to stay home. Not only doubt, but know. They don't care, or they shouldn't, the church is a hospital for sinners remember?  And that may be why so many can't accept the church's handbook rule about gay couples children not being allowed to be baptised. I think if you get something out of church it's your right to go there, if you find you are unable to worship without the church, I'm going through the same thing, then by all means you should go and partake as you see fit. No one has any right to take that away. You aren't harming anyone there. You probably need to get back to voicing any concern you may have, I think times have definitely changed and you wouldn't get the backlash like the time you taught in Elders Quorum. By reading your posts on here, you don't come off as anti at all. In fact you have appeared more like a believer to me. But like Jeanne said, maybe a church vacation might help. 

[Duncan]

yeah go! You might meet a lady!

[Mystery Meat]

24 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Worship is why I go. 

This is a great answer and reason to go. 

I honestly appreciate your sincere desire to understand and evaluate your participation in Church. Worship is largely why I go as well. I think worship is a reason why many (if not most) members go as well. But, I have a couple of comments. There have been some discussions about what is appropriate to discuss at Church on the board lately. My question to you would be is it necessary that every single member know everything about the race issue, LGBT rights, polygamy or any other thorny issue to adequately worship the Lord on Sunday? I don't think so and you may disagree. That's fine. But to the extent that there were ruffled feathers in the past, could it not have been better to take a step back and let the focus of those three hours be on your own worship and other people's worship rather than undertaking the responsibility to educate them on issues that ultimately don't affect their ability to worship (the stated purpose of your own attendance)? Otherwise, it seems that your purpose is not to worship but to advocate for certain things and educate people on things that you find important (not necessarily bad, but, again, not necessary for worship).

My thoughts, for what they are worth.

[rpn]

I go because I want to be where my Savior and Heavenly Parents want me to be.   That is enough.  

I do things like, look up and read hymns or scriptures that are related to the talk or lesson.  For the thoughts of "what a waste", I go looking for the basis for my thinking that what I'm hearing is contrary to Gospel.  I think about whether there is something I could do for someone.  Sometimes I just count my blessings (in writing sometimes).

[bluebell]

51 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Worship is why I go. 

So, you don't get anything out of taking the sacrament?  I'm not setting you up or asking a leading question, i just think that whether or not you truly believe that taking the sacrament is an essential part of your covenant relationship with Christ makes a difference on how i would answer your question. 

[canard78]

37 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I meant to make this more of a discussion about is there a point in which someone is better off not going, or if the ward is better off if the person does not go, as well.  I'm curious if I'm more of a burden, or if it's me bringing people down type of stuff too. 

Thanks for the comments.  I'll get back to this later. 

This is a bigger question to discuss.

It got to the stage where I didn't feel like I was making an uplifting contribution any more. It felt like I had the choice of either being inauthentic and, at times, silent or be authentic and disruptive. These people were my friends and I wanted church to be a place where they could feel uplifted, supported and affirmed. I was aware that my contributions were either going to be non-existent (if I bit my tongue) or troubling.

There were other reasons for not continuing attendance too, but concern for others was a part of it.

On the other hand, a member could choose to keep the concerning questions or issues to themselves and instead focus on selectively sharing aspects and messages that were affirming and uplifting. I spent 6 months as Gospel Principles teacher in the latter stages of activity and focused solely on teaching messages that were common ground and mutually uplifting. My problem was that the common ground became increasingly limited. 

(I like the idea of a "response council" to your specific situation too... but appreciate it might not be what you're looking for).

[mnn727]

I gotta admit, if I could take the Sacrament and go directly to HP Group, I'd love Church, I get more out of the 30-35 minute HP Group lesson than I do the rest of the 3 hour block spiritually - but then we have an outstanding HP group - there's no snoozing in there.

My only problem with not going to all 3 hours is that I have a very solid testimony. I just don't like "talks" by unprepared/unprofessional speakers and I dislike the superficial way we handle scriptures in Sunday School. (and yes I study them on my own to make up for it)

Edited December 12, 2016 by mnn727

[Johnnie Cake]

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

It's been a long time since I've felt like I've gotten anything out of my attendance at Church.  I've always put the onus on me when it comes to getting something out of Church and it usually gets me thinking, while I'm there, about how I can utilize what's coming at me.  I attend the full block each week and some who are close to me wonder why I do.  It remains my method of worship--that's the main reason.  But I admit the meetings are pointless to me, other than just giving me time to sit and ponder.  I can't really contribute.  I used to try but it really just upset people, so I mostly stay silent. 

Anyway, what's your take on someone who doesn't really care for the messages shared and can't really participate?  Should he even be there?  For the most part I feel out of place, now, and don't really feel welcome anyway.  But, to be fair to me, I don't see myself doing the worship thing without Church. 

Thanks for your thoughts.  I'm curious if anyone else feels similar too. 

Coming out of a short lived MD&D retirement to say: This is why I no longer attend...it became emotionally and mentally too unhealthy for me to do so.  I could not attend lessons that taught belief in a literal BoM that historically took place, or in a Jesus that was anything more than a wise man, or listen to lessons that praised JS or BY, two men I found to be intellectually offensive or hear another  lesson on how we all need to be examples of truth and honesty knowing full well that the church failed to live up to that standard or hear someone promote the official stance of the church against the LGBT community...nothing has changed in the years since I stopped attending...the church pushes the the same old tripe, which is their right.  Members of the church have the right to meet with like minded people who share a common worldview...out of respect for that right...it was best I not attend to disrupt that right.

 

Answer this question:  Do you feel you can attend and be your true self?  If yes then attend...if No then why bother attending something where you can't be yourself?

Edited December 12, 2016 by Johnnie Cake

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

yeah go! You might meet a lady!

I'm married. 

But you brought up another issue I have with Church and attending.  My wife is really tired of going and doesn't want to go moreso than I.  I think it'd be easier for me if it weren't for her filling me with what she doesn't appreciate about Church so often.  I love her and support her though, so that's not stopping.  She feels far more lied to/betrayed than I ever have.  She has less trust in the organization than I do.  I mean there's definitely far more in this for her, but I won't continue to speak for her. 

If she stopped and I continued and brought the kids (a possibility we've discussed) that'd be interesting, but I'm not sure I'd stick with it without her all things considered.