Should I attend Church?

[pogi]

56 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Also, I have to say that part of why I decided to stop attending, is that I felt like it would be important for me to show an example to my family and friends of someone who lives a good life, but doesn't attend church regularly.  Too many cautionary tales about losing the light/spirit for those that leave the church, and having a life that spirals downward.  I want to show that old stereotype to be untrue.  

You've proven your point...now get back to church

[RevTestament]

5 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

To each his own, but going to a Church that preaches only the Bible, sounds far too painful for me.  I'm far too much a proponent of a non-literal reading of scripture, far too convinced by scholarship focused on biblical criticism to treat it as anything more than sincere efforts of past people mostly pseudonymously trying to convey their messages of God.  Scripture to me is far to expansive to be limited to old writings of ancient Israelites. 

But I appreciate the suggestion. 

I probably now have a much less "literal" view of for instance the OT, than at any other time in my life. Yet, I know more than ever that the scriptures are "true" and God lives. He uses the scriptures to tell stories which teach of Him.

For instance I simply do not view the story of Eden as literally as I am sure most Ev Christians do. If the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is not some literal tree, and the tree of Life is not some literal fruit tree, but is instead a representation of our Savior and the gospel, and the flaming sword is another representation, this really calls into question the literalness of the story at all. I believe I have eaten of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It is not confined to some literal place. It is confined to God's word. Similarly, I have a tough time believing that the entire planet was covered with a flood in the story of Noah. I believe there may have been a literal flood, but one that was planet-wide defies the description of the dove finding an olive branch, and the possibility of all the plants surviving this flood. Instead, it is a story representing the ark of God, and holding onto the iron rod, etc. 

Yet, if I were to talk like this in SS, how would I be received? I simply accept that it is not my job to make everyone see the scriptures the way I do. It is possible I may be wrong, as I have been wrong many times before in my life, and my view of the nature of the Godhead has vastly changed over the years. I accept that people read the same scriptures, and interpret them different ways, and indeed that may be accepted by God who says he "conceals" matters and allows "kings" to search them out. It is not for me to condemn those who do not see things as I do. I can only lead in the sense that I can offer what I do see, and why. I will allow others to choose to follow my views if they wish. I will allow the spirit to testify to them the truths of those things I believe... I think that is where the value of your "free market of ideas" resides. Eventually, what is true and "right" will win out if that is God's will.

[Meadowchik]

3 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I meant to make this more of a discussion about is there a point in which someone is better off not going, or if the ward is better off if the person does not go, as well.  I'm curious if I'm more of a burden, or if it's me bringing people down type of stuff too. 

Thanks for the comments.  I'll get back to this later. 

We're experiencing an extreme amount of tension at Church, between us and the bishop, that is. Yesterday's three hours were good. Even though there's stuff that grates me and though I feel like I've heard 99% of the good stuff before, I noticed how those things can be uplifting for others and that I seek a bit more in some places and somehow the contrast is telling me where I am ready to grow. It makes me think about those in audience thirty years ago when I was hearing things for the first time but they weren't,  and how they contributed even though to them it may have been almost-nothing-new.

The little impromptu meeting with the bishop after the block was a disaster. Up until this evening I wondered if we could go back this weekend but something in me clicked: I want to go because of my relationship with God.

Let the chips fall where they may, otherwise. Even if our Bishop does something unseemly and embarasses us like he did a sister a couple months ago, right now I'm at peace with it. God knows you and your ward. If you are attending with a sincere heart to know God, God may use that to allow others to grow even if it is uncomfortable. 

[Calm]

Is attending for just Sacrament Meeting an option?  In one period of my life because of anxiety, I chose to go to just that meeting for partaking of the Sacrament and participating in the hymns.  The talks when I thought about it as often set off anxiety issues as not, so when they did I would read scripture or if necessary walk around the building until it was time to sing again.  I was able to walk home which made for an over all pleasant experience.  My husband was supportive of my choice, which helped a lot.

In time other aspects of the meeting grew in importance to me.  I volunteered for Primary to begin with to avoid having to attend SS and RS, which I felt alien in.  Teaching in Primary helped me to learn to love the simple side of worship and put me in a group that made me feel loved simply because I showed I loved them without needing all the explanations or nuances that come with adult relationships.  Over the decades I have been able to develop relationships with others in deeper ways so I no longer feel alien, but attending either does not feel natural to me (it doesn't help to have a movement disorder that can drive me crazy if I can't focus tightly on what is going on).  Being a ward librarian gave me an out where I could serve, have distraction while helping others and being able to read or organize as an alternative distraction.  Nowadays I am comfortable in all the meetings...well, emotionally, mentally, and socially...wish they had the option of having loungers or treadmills, :).

Edited December 12, 2016 by Calm

[Jeanne]

30 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

We're experiencing an extreme amount of tension at Church, between us and the bishop, that is. Yesterday's three hours were good. Even though there's stuff that grates me and though I feel like I've heard 99% of the good stuff before, I noticed how those things can be uplifting for others and that I seek a bit more in some places and somehow the contrast is telling me where I am ready to grow. It makes me think about those in audience thirty years ago when I was hearing things for the first time but they weren't,  and how they contributed even though to them it may have been almost-nothing-new.

The little impromptu meeting with the bishop after the block was a disaster. Up until this evening I wondered if we could go back this weekend but something in me clicked: I want to go because of my relationship with God.

Let the chips fall where they may, otherwise. Even if our Bishop does something unseemly and embarasses us like he did a sister a couple months ago, right now I'm at peace with it. God knows you and your ward. If you are attending with a sincere heart to know God, God may use that to allow others to grow even if it is uncomfortable. 

Sounds like Stemelbow should stay in church...and your Bishop should go!

[CV75]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

Sure.  Different issues. 

I think the Lord tries to make us feel welcome and that we fit in. At the same time, He reminds us that His Church is for any and all who feel they are a problem or liability. This is very different from the organizations of the world, where such people are encouraged to resign or quit, and leaders are expected to proactively. Excommunication may seem like an exception to that, but it is intended to be temporary and excommunicated members ideally keep, or a least resume, coming.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

Too many cautionary tales about losing the light/spirit for those that leave the church, and having a life that spirals downward.  I want to show that old stereotype to be untrue.  

[Calm]

44 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

We're experiencing an extreme amount of tension at Church, between us and the bishop, that is....

Continuing issues or new stuff?  Sorry to hear about it either way.

[Johnnie Cake]

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

In answer to your question, I don't know.  It may be partly because I have yet to really come to terms with myself.  or it could be it's part yes and part no.  Or it could simply be I'm not sure what the hell it means to be true to myself.  I mean I think I am, but I also realize I hold back, or fall in line in many ways.  Then again, when you think about that, I don't know how one ever would avoid falling in line in certain instances or holding oneself back in life. 

There's a difference between "falling in line" and "being true to yourself"  one is conforming to a respected authority while the other is compromising your ideals.  You can do the first and still be look yourself in the mirror each day...but not being true to yourself leads to self loathing and mental & emotional pain.

Another question you should be asking yourself is :  Des it make you happy?  if yes...well then continue...if NO, then why subject yourself to that...its not healthy

Edited December 12, 2016 by Johnnie Cake

[RevTestament]

9 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

There's a difference between "falling in line" and "being true to yourself"  one is conforming to a respected authority while the other is compromising your ideals.  You can do the first and still be look yourself in the mirror each day...but not being true to yourself leads to self loathing and mental & emotional pain.

Another question you should be asking yourself is :  Des it make you happy?  if yes...well then continue...if NO, then why subject yourself to that...its not healthy

There is plenty I subject myself to in life that is difficult, or is something I would rather not do. I think to follow the Lord is one of those things that seems to involve choosing the more difficult or "hardest" path. That doesn't seem to make me "happy." It is difficult to imagine doing the Father's will in Gethsemane made our Savior "happy," yet He did it for me and you, because in the end it would lead us to happiness, and therefore bring Him joy. 

I do not always find going to church to be easy, or the thing I most want to do, because I find myself in disagreement with some things taught. Nevertheless, I know the gospel essentials are true, and I have made covenants with my Lord to support His church and to live His gospel and commandments which involve loving my fellow man. If I cannot love my fellow church members who are generally wonderful people, how am I going to love others? If it weren't for people such as those in my ward, I would never have received this gospel in the first place. Their dedication to our Savior and the gospel is the only reason I have received the true gospel and the true priesthood. Shall I turn around and slap them because I disagree about a few things? No, I will not do that to the cause of truth and restoration of Yeshua's place here on earth.

[pogi]

6 hours ago, stemelbow said:

It's been a long time since I've felt like I've gotten anything out of my attendance at Church. 

I feel the same way quite often.  Here is why I choose to attend each week:

I believe that God wants me to attend, and I believe that obedience to God's will before my own is a preeminent principle of importance in my spiritual growth.  The "why" (as in why does God want me to attend) doesn't matter to me.  I fully expect that my spiritual path will cross many doldrums interspersed with occasional moderate to great winds at my back pushing me along.  I don't expect my journey along the iron rod to be full of spiritual highs throughout my entire journey, but I do expect to become completely lost if I let go of the rod in search of something better.  I may not be savoring and relishing in the pure and white fruit of the tree of life each week at SS, but I do expect to become one step closer to the tree with each week I attend.  I feel a duty and obligation to God to attend, to be an example of the believers in fellowship.  I find that I get the most out of church when I think less about what I can get out of church but instead immerse myself and magnify my calling.

It truly can be difficult to get myself to church each week, but I have noticed that one good choice always leads to another.  When I attend church, I am more likely to keep the entire Sabbath day holy for example.  When I keep the Sabbath day holy, I am more likely to read my scriptures and pray/meditate throughout the week...  Ultimately, I want to be a part of His church, I want to be a part of the body of Christ, not just for my own good, but for the good of the whole.

stemelbow, I promise that if you immerse yourself in your callings your influence for good at church will not go unnoticed.  I can also promise that if you stop going to church that your influence will undoubtedly go unnoticed.  I was called as the Scout Master of my ward.  I accepted that calling with weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth.  I never liked scouts, I never liked the uniforms, the militaristic style, the silly merit badges, etc.  But I decided to give it a try.  After about a year of service, one of the boys came to me in private and hugged me and starting sobbing.  He said, "I don't know how to tell you this exactly, but you are like the father that I never had."  The boy has a dad, but he is a deadbeat.  I was so caught off guard by that experience.  I had no idea that I was making such a profound impact in this young man's life.  I honestly felt like I was slacking in my calling and wondering what the point of it all was.  That was a wind at my back moment.  It was validating and encouraging to me, that I am doing the right thing.

Edited December 12, 2016 by pogi

[Johnnie Cake]

21 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

There is plenty I subject myself to in life that is difficult, or is something I would rather not do. I think to follow the Lord is one of those things that seems to involve choosing the more difficult or "hardest" path. That doesn't seem to make me "happy." It is difficult to imagine doing the Father's will in Gethsemane made our Savior "happy," yet He did it for me and you, because in the end it would lead us to happiness, and therefore bring Him joy. 

I do not always find going to church to be easy, or the thing I most want to do, because I find myself in disagreement with some things taught. Nevertheless, I know the gospel essentials are true, and I have made covenants with my Lord to support His church and to live His gospel and commandments which involve loving my fellow man. If I cannot love my fellow church members who are generally wonderful people, how am I going to love others? If it weren't for people such as those in my ward, I would never have received this gospel in the first place. Their dedication to our Savior and the gospel is the only reason I have received the true gospel and the true priesthood. Shall I turn around and slap them because I disagree about a few things? No, I will not do that to the cause of truth and restoration of Yeshua's place here on earth.

I'm a firm believer in "if the church works for you" great dive in with all your heart...but if it doesn't work, if it make you unhappy, if it makes you loath yourself or causes you to have feelings of unwarranted guilt, or you can't be your authentic self at church, if you prefer blue shirts more than white, if conformity pains you...then its not a healthy place and you should just stop attending.

I mean no offense...but the church is not what it claims to be...so if it doesn't make you happy...why go

Edited December 12, 2016 by Johnnie Cake

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

You've proven your point...now get back to church

 I've wondered if my "mission" is through, but I'm not sure it is yet.  Spent almost 40 years of my life being the model citizen, the example people looked up to, (not by my choice, just how it worked).  I'm a product of my culture and religion and I think its influenced me in many positive ways.  But honestly I'm growing more now than I was before, partially because I'm forcing myself to reconsider and wrestle with so many things I took for granted before.  Finding an internal authority, rather than external.  

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Who doesn't like a good challenge now and then!  :-) 

[RevTestament]

1 minute ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I'm a firm believer in "if the church works for you" great dive in with all your heart...but if it doesn't work, if it make you unhappy, if it makes you loath yourself of have feelings of unwarranted guilt, or you can't be your authentic self at church, if you prefer blue shirts more than white, if conformity pains you...then its not a healthy place and you should just stop attending.

This last Sunday, and the one b4 that, and the one b4 that I wore a blue shirt

Sometimes I wear yellow or accru shirts. Sometimes even red.... forbid!

Those who are unrepentant sinners might feel the church "makes" them unhappy, but in truth they will never find true happiness until they get right with their Savior.

Sometimes I am "unhappy" at church. Sometimes I have felt very frustrated. Sometimes I have felt like the oddball or an alien at church. I think sometimes there are clickish wards that I would feel unhappy in. In truth my "happiest days" in church were when I first joined as a youth. Since I have returned and lived in "the heart" of the church, I have always felt like the odd man out - for the most part anyway. I wish it were different. Nevertheless, I press on, and pray for that day when the Church will grow beyond its present mold with "blinders" on. I accept that lot the Lord has given me - I volunteered anyways. So I take the good with the bad. I am a little/lot tired of the "mormon bubble" but I have to be content that one day that will change. The gospel in the restored church still gives spiritual growth, and the deep satisfaction that I am living the true and restored gospel, and uniquely privileged ability to follow our Savior in truth and light. The learning experiences have been truly deep and wonderful. These things I wish others could experience like I have. 

[Johnnie Cake]

10 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

This last Sunday, and the one b4 that, and the one b4 that I wore a blue shirt

Sometimes I wear yellow or accru shirts. Sometimes even red.... forbid!

Those who are unrepentant sinners might feel the church "makes" them unhappy, but in truth they will never find true happiness until they get right with their Savior.

Sometimes I am "unhappy" at church. Sometimes I have felt very frustrated. Sometimes I have felt like the oddball or an alien at church. I think sometimes there are clickish wards that I would feel unhappy in. In truth my "happiest days" in church were when I first joined as a youth. Since I have returned and lived in "the heart" of the church, I have always felt like the odd man out - for the most part anyway. I wish it were different. Nevertheless, I press on, and pray for that day when the Church will grow beyond its present mold with "blinders" on. I accept that lot the Lord has given me - I volunteered anyways. So I take the good with the bad. I am a little/lot tired of the "mormon bubble" but I have to be content that one day that will change. The gospel in the restored church still gives spiritual growth, and the deep satisfaction that I am living the true and restored gospel, and uniquely privileged ability to follow our Savior in truth and light. The learning experiences have been truly deep and wonderful. These things I wish others could experience like I have. 

Bottom line...you attend because you believe it is what it claims to be...I don't...why would I or anyone who doesn't believe it is what it claims attend?  You can put up with a whole lot of "crap" if you believe its what it claims...but why would anyone attend who no longer accepts that?

Which is why I say to stemelbow, whom I happen to know personally but don't hold that against him,  that if it makes him happy attended,  if not don't

Edited December 12, 2016 by Johnnie Cake

[Jeanne]

8 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

This last Sunday, and the one b4 that, and the one b4 that I wore a blue shirt

Sometimes I wear yellow or accru shirts. Sometimes even red.... forbid!

Those who are unrepentant sinners might feel the church "makes" them unhappy, but in truth they will never find true happiness until they get right with their Savior.

Sometimes I am "unhappy" at church. Sometimes I have felt very frustrated. Sometimes I have felt like the oddball or an alien at church. I think sometimes there are clickish wards that I would feel unhappy in. In truth my "happiest days" in church were when I first joined as a youth. Since I have returned and lived in "the heart" of the church, I have always felt like the odd man out - for the most part anyway. I wish it were different. Nevertheless, I press on, and pray for that day when the Church will grow beyond its present mold with "blinders" on. I accept that lot the Lord has given me - I volunteered anyways. So I take the good with the bad. I am a little/lot tired of the "mormon bubble" but I have to be content that one day that will change. The gospel in the restored church still gives spiritual growth, and the deep satisfaction that I am living the true and restored gospel, and uniquely privileged ability to follow our Savior in truth and light. The learning experiences have been truly deep and wonderful. These things I wish others could experience like I have. 

If I could have hung on to my childhood memories..the love, the lessons and the pure safety of the church, I would still be there for sure.  As an adult..these experiences you talk about I know about..I really do know what those are!!  I think the difference is that there came a point where I had to give my own self permission to think on my own.  My self esteem and self worth counted on it.  It doesn't mean that you forget experiences or good things..or even walk away but only to say..I don't have to have this frustration.  Outside that "mormon bubble" are some experiences waiting with those intense feelings that you speak of..the thing is..it will belong to you.

[Daniel2]

7 hours ago, stemelbow said:

It's been a long time since I've felt like I've gotten anything out of my attendance at Church.  I've always put the onus on me when it comes to getting something out of Church and it usually gets me thinking, while I'm there, about how I can utilize what's coming at me.  I attend the full block each week and some who are close to me wonder why I do.  It remains my method of worship--that's the main reason.  But I admit the meetings are pointless to me, other than just giving me time to sit and ponder.  I can't really contribute.  I used to try but it really just upset people, so I mostly stay silent. 

Anyway, what's your take on someone who doesn't really care for the messages shared and can't really participate?  Should he even be there?  For the most part I feel out of place, now, and don't really feel welcome anyway.  But, to be fair to me, I don't see myself doing the worship thing without Church. 

Thanks for your thoughts.  I'm curious if anyone else feels similar too. 

During my 31 years of devout activity in the LDS church, I would have firmly born testimony that what I get out of church is directly proportional to what I put into it.

Once I left the church behind and started attending the UU congregation, I was AMAZED at how much MORE I got from a congregation that explores ongoing current events, topical topics, encourages personal, community, and global engagement in social issues, and in which ministers and guest speakers spend time, energy, and effort preparing sermons, talks, and activities that enlighten, expand, educate, and encourage further action.  I was and am continually astounded at the amount of preparation, thought, research, prayer, effort, coordination (between music and speakers to coordinate by theme) that other Faiths put into their services.  Mormons are often proud of their lay ministry, but in my experience, something is definitely lost by not having ministry leadership who's SOLE and even professional focus is pastoral care and leadership. 

While I was still LDS, because my experience was limited soley to that which I had known and experienced, there is simply no way I could have known how much more authentic my sense of worship of the divine unknown could become until I experienced it for myself.

I now can say that while any meeting or activity's full potential depends on a sense of your own personal attention and commitment to 'get something out of it,' that's only PART of what CAN be available... a LARGE portion of what I get from worship services can also be found in that which is prepared, presented, and proposed, as well as the types of discussions that are encouraged.

Where and how one worships is an intensely personal choice and part of our constitutional privileges and, if one believes Mormonism, God-endowed agency. I could never speak to what is valuable or worthwhile for others.  I can only share my story and hope that some might benefit from it, however it serves them best.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Daniel2

[RevTestament]

8 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Bottom line...you attend because you believe it is what it claims to be...I don't...why would I or anyone who doesn't believe it is what it claims attend?  You can put up with a whole lot of "crap" if you believe its what it claims...but why would anyone attend who no longer accepts that?

Well, that depends upon what you mean. When I listened to GB Hinkley say that it is a great thing to have the most senior apostle chosen(shoed) in, I kind of wanted to gag. Seems to me like BY was openly voted on by the general membership and not just "affirmed." Nevertheless, if the church is happy this way, I will live with it. So what the Church "claims" is to receive revelation from the Lord, but I see plenty of areas I disagree with. Yet, I accept the fact that I am one little cog in what is becoming a fairly large church. 

I attend because I know that the Church represents the Lord's restored gospel - not because the Church is perfect or "the true church," or other common representations. In fact I strongly believe the "true church" has got it wrong on many things. Nevertheless, it is the only source for the true priesthood, and authority to act for our Savior. What I am saying is the tendency to find one fault in the church and then become troubled and conclude that the "true church" is not true, is simply not a forgone conclusion. If I can believe the gospel is true with all my disagreements about church "doctrine," I believe anyone can, and be relatively happy in the church. One's "happiness" is largely a matter of their own choosing. Life deals "crap" to everyone. God is no "respecter" of persons. One shouldn't expect "exaltation" if they don't overcome any "crap." Cheers  

[Johnnie Cake]

23 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Well, that depends upon what you mean. When I listened to GB Hinkley say that it is a great thing to have the most senior apostle chosen(shoed) in, I kind of wanted to gag. Seems to me like BY was openly voted on by the general membership and not just "affirmed." Nevertheless, if the church is happy this way, I will live with it. So what the Church "claims" is to receive revelation from the Lord, but I see plenty of areas I disagree with. Yet, I accept the fact that I am one little cog in what is becoming a fairly large church. 

I attend because I know that the Church represents the Lord's restored gospel - not because the Church is perfect or "the true church," or other common representations. In fact I strongly believe the "true church" has got it wrong on many things. Nevertheless, it is the only source for the true priesthood, and authority to act for our Savior. What I am saying is the tendency to find one fault in the church and then become troubled and conclude that the "true church" is not true, is simply not a forgone conclusion. If I can believe the gospel is true with all my disagreements about church "doctrine," I believe anyone can, and be relatively happy in the church. One's "happiness" is largely a matter of their own choosing. Life deals "crap" to everyone. God is no "respecter" of persons. One shouldn't expect "exaltation" if they don't overcome any "crap." Cheers  

There in lays the difference between you and I...you believe it to be " The Lord's restored Gospel" whereas I believe it to be a completely Man Made institution... invented whole clothe by Joseph Smith and his co accomplices.  The BoM is fiction, the BoA is a fraudulent fabrication, priesthood claims were convenient contrivances made up as needed to maintain control and power.  Case in point Utah has more so called priesthood power than any place in the world and more priesthood blessings are given in Utah than anywhere else in the world....as a result one would expect to see a significant impact on those who live, die, recover from illness from all of the priesthood blessings given to the sick as compared to the rest of the nation/world who receive no priesthood blessings..but we don't.  Priesthood has ZERO impact on whether one gets better, lives or dies...its all a made up placebo...but the funny thing is that real placebos have a higher impact than the priesthood blessing placebos.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Johnnie Cake

[RevTestament]

25 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

If I could have hung on to my childhood memories..the love, the lessons and the pure safety of the church, I would still be there for sure.  As an adult..these experiences you talk about I know about..I really do know what those are!! 

Well, as an adult, I don't think it fair to always expect the warm, cozy feelings from church that we had as a child. As an adult we have to deal with real life problems and pressures, games people play, etc - even in church. The alienation I have felt I know is because my beliefs are outside the norm of the "mormon bubble" or traditionally taught scriptural interpretations. It's being released from home teaching "that person" I was just assigned to home teach, probably because I home-taught his sister, who disagreed with this or that I said, and found out I was assigned to teach her brother...... or many other things like that. But if one believes that is "better" in other churches I think they are fooling themselves. Been there, done that too. 

Quote

I think the difference is that there came a point where I had to give my own self permission to think on my own.  My self esteem and self worth counted on it.  It doesn't mean that you forget experiences or good things..or even walk away but only to say..I don't have to have this frustration.  Outside that "mormon bubble" are some experiences waiting with those intense feelings that you speak of..the thing is..it will belong to you.

I'm not sure if you are saying the difference between you and me, or the difference in having "grown up." I certainly "think on my own." Sometimes and often that leads me to agree with Church leaders. However, I can usually pick at least one thing I disagree with prior church Presidents about. I suppose I could choose not to have that "frustration" by leaving, but then I would be frustrated about the lack of spirituality in other churches like I felt before I returned. I don't long for experiences outside of the "Mormon bubble" - with the occasional exception of a cold beer on a hot summer day, but in all fairness the "Mormon bubble" I am speaking of is one I feel the Lord thrusts on me - not one of societal expectations or norms. 

[RevTestament]

2 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

There in lays the difference between you and I...you believe it to be " The Lord's restored Gospel" whereas I believe it to be a completely Man Made institution... invented whole clothe by Joseph Smith and his co accomplices.  The BoM is fiction, the BoA is a fraudulent fabrication, priesthood claims were convenient contrivances made up as needed to maintain control and power.  Case in point Utah has more so called priesthood power than any place in the world and more priesthood blessings are given in Utah than anywhere else in the world....as a result one would expect to see a significant impact on those who live, die, recover from illness from all of the priesthood blessings given to the sick as compared to the rest of the nation/world who receive no priesthood blessings..but we don't.  Priesthood has ZERO impact on whether one gets better, lives or dies...its all made up placebo...but placebos have a higher impact that the priesthood blessing placebos.

Placebos don't restore one's voice. Placebos don't audibly talk to one's mind as so many have reported.

I am sorry you have lost all faith in the church Johnnie. Speaking as one who has run the gammut of emotions, and beliefs, however, I can say that once I sat down to systematically look at how many archaeological evidences there are for the church, I was floored. I just kept finding them. There is no way the BoM is fiction. There is no way JS could have gotten so many things right that he did if he was just making it up. The world will soon have to come to grips with this I believe. But where much is given, much is required.  We are in the calm before the storm Johnnie. Stay tuned...

[Danzo]

8 hours ago, stemelbow said:

It's been a long time since I've felt like I've gotten anything out of my attendance at Church.  I've always put the onus on me when it comes to getting something out of Church and it usually gets me thinking, while I'm there, about how I can utilize what's coming at me.  I attend the full block each week and some who are close to me wonder why I do.  It remains my method of worship--that's the main reason.  But I admit the meetings are pointless to me, other than just giving me time to sit and ponder.  I can't really contribute.  I used to try but it really just upset people, so I mostly stay silent. 

Anyway, what's your take on someone who doesn't really care for the messages shared and can't really participate?  Should he even be there?  For the most part I feel out of place, now, and don't really feel welcome anyway.  But, to be fair to me, I don't see myself doing the worship thing without Church. 

Thanks for your thoughts.  I'm curious if anyone else feels similar too. 

try going to a different ward.

 

Spanish Wards are usually much more interesting.

 

[Guest]

On December 12, 2016 at 11:39 AM, stemelbow said:

It's been a long time since I've felt like I've gotten anything out of my attendance at Church.  I've always put the onus on me when it comes to getting something out of Church and it usually gets me thinking, while I'm there, about how I can utilize what's coming at me.  I attend the full block each week and some who are close to me wonder why I do.  It remains my method of worship--that's the main reason.  But I admit the meetings are pointless to me, other than just giving me time to sit and ponder.  I can't really contribute.  I used to try but it really just upset people, so I mostly stay silent. 

Anyway, what's your take on someone who doesn't really care for the messages shared and can't really participate?  Should he even be there?  For the most part I feel out of place, now, and don't really feel welcome anyway.  But, to be fair to me, I don't see myself doing the worship thing without Church. 

Thanks for your thoughts.  I'm curious if anyone else feels similar too. 

Do you feel that there is nothing to learn? I have never got to the point that I know all, and cannot learn from a different perspective. What are you saying that upsets others, have they even told you they are upset, or do you oust imagine that others are upset? If you see the meetings as "pointless", maybe you no longer believe, in the Church, in Christ, in learning more about either. Everyone passes through Valley's, especially through the "valley of death", but this is when most see the need to climb to the  mountian top. My suggestion, put on your climbing shoes. BTW, what is it you say that you think upsets others?

Either way, go, don't go...your choice. 

Edited December 14, 2016 by Bill "Papa" Lee

[Atheist Mormon]

8 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Fair enough.  I've had a different experience.  I try.  I'm not sure what more I can do. 

Why don't you do whatever you would like to do Without feeling guilty?