Should I attend Church?

[RevTestament]

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Answer this question:  Do you feel you can attend and be your true self?  If yes then attend...if No then why bother attending something where you can't be yourself?

Because the "natural man" is an enemy to God. We must be willing to put the "natural" selfish man away to follow Christ.

The only time I would be hesitant to advise someone to attend Church is if they have forsaken their covenants or are living an unrepentant life, and therefore departed from the gospel.

 

3 Nephi 18:29

29 For whoso eateth and drinketh my flesh and blood unworthily eateth and drinketh damnation to his soul; therefore if ye know that a man is unworthy to eat and drink of my flesh and blood ye shall forbid him.

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

My faith has transitioned over the past year from very literal to something more figurative and more open ended, and I've found myself in tension with various aspects of discussion and talks at church. That being said, I found that I can still contribute by finding the places where there is room for discussion. For example, instead of pointing out that I have qualms with our claim to sole salvational authority, instead, I explain the problems associated with constantly using us-vs.-them comparisons in church and how emphasizing our common ground with those around us will make us more likely to improve the world around us. I'd also point out that our leaders have encouraged us to reach out and work with other churches in the community, and that this will be difficult without recognizing our common faith and common cause. Each week I find more and more areas where I can contribute and uplift my community, which helps me feel like my church attendance is meaningful for me. This also makes me more receptive to the messages at church that I do see as valid, and the more comfortable I become, the less the tension with issues I disagree with seem to be at the forefront of my church experience. I've decided I'm in this for the long haul as this is my family's faith community and one that I cherish despite what I view as flaws and misconceptions, etc.

Not to sound like I've been there and done that, but what you describe is really how it worked for me a few years ago.  It was fun and exciting to me.  I felt like I was quite engaged and others appreciated my perspective and where I am coming from.  But unfortunately since then, and after some unfortunate incidents, I think most of that went away.  Anyway, I don't think that door is closed for me, though.  I'm hoping for a revitalization.  Thanks for the reminder. 

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, Mystery Meat said:

This is a great answer and reason to go. 

I honestly appreciate your sincere desire to understand and evaluate your participation in Church. Worship is largely why I go as well. I think worship is a reason why many (if not most) members go as well. But, I have a couple of comments. There have been some discussions about what is appropriate to discuss at Church on the board lately. My question to you would be is it necessary that every single member know everything about the race issue, LGBT rights, polygamy or any other thorny issue to adequately worship the Lord on Sunday? I don't think so and you may disagree. That's fine. But to the extent that there were ruffled feathers in the past, could it not have been better to take a step back and let the focus of those three hours be on your own worship and other people's worship rather than undertaking the responsibility to educate them on issues that ultimately don't affect their ability to worship (the stated purpose of your own attendance)? Otherwise, it seems that your purpose is not to worship but to advocate for certain things and educate people on things that you find important (not necessarily bad, but, again, not necessary for worship).

My thoughts, for what they are worth.

Oh I agree with your general theme here.  I've never really seen myself as one who goes to educate others, or talk about difficult or controversial things for funsies.  I've realized I've ruffled enough feathers trying to share with others concerning the welfare of my soul, that it just feels selfish trying to push it on others.  I'm happy thinking people are best where they are--that is to say if they want to continue happily worshipping as they do, I won't stop them or try to change anything for them.  I'm by nature, pretty quiet in a crowd.  So it comes pretty natural for me to sit back and let people say whatever in Church without disagreement or response. 

 

Anyway...thanks.  I think your points are valid for sure. 

[Benjamin Seeker]

1 minute ago, stemelbow said:

Not to sound like I've been there and done that, but what you describe is really how it worked for me a few years ago.  It was fun and exciting to me.  I felt like I was quite engaged and others appreciated my perspective and where I am coming from.  But unfortunately since then, and after some unfortunate incidents, I think most of that went away.  Anyway, I don't think that door is closed for me, though.  I'm hoping for a revitalization.  Thanks for the reminder. 

Sounds like you've been there and done that.  

The other thing that I wanted to say is that if people like us are going to have a voice that is heard as meaningful and valid in the LDS community, there is going to have to be enough of us that are integral to the community, in the pews, etc. If you have a way to stay (and enjoy it), we need you!

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Stemelbow, I really believe there are others going through the same as you in your ward. I highly doubt the ward would want you to stay home. Not only doubt, but know. They don't care, or they shouldn't, the church is a hospital for sinners remember?  And that may be why so many can't accept the church's handbook rule about gay couples children not being allowed to be baptised. I think if you get something out of church it's your right to go there, if you find you are unable to worship without the church, I'm going through the same thing, then by all means you should go and partake as you see fit. No one has any right to take that away. You aren't harming anyone there. You probably need to get back to voicing any concern you may have, I think times have definitely changed and you wouldn't get the backlash like the time you taught in Elders Quorum. By reading your posts on here, you don't come off as anti at all. In fact you have appeared more like a believer to me. But like Jeanne said, maybe a church vacation might help. 

It could help.  I am a believer.  I'm glad you recognize it. 

[stemelbow]

52 minutes ago, bluebell said:

So, you don't get anything out of taking the sacrament?  I'm not setting you up or asking a leading question, i just think that whether or not you truly believe that taking the sacrament is an essential part of your covenant relationship with Christ makes a difference on how i would answer your question. 

I'm not sure what you're talking about.  Sacrament is nothing but worship in my view.  I thought I was clear there.  Sorry for the confusion. 

[stemelbow]

53 minutes ago, canard78 said:

This is a bigger question to discuss.

It got to the stage where I didn't feel like I was making an uplifting contribution any more. It felt like I had the choice of either being inauthentic and, at times, silent or be authentic and disruptive. These people were my friends and I wanted church to be a place where they could feel uplifted, supported and affirmed. I was aware that my contributions were either going to be non-existent (if I bit my tongue) or troubling.

There were other reasons for not continuing attendance too, but concern for others was a part of it.

On the other hand, a member could choose to keep the concerning questions or issues to themselves and instead focus on selectively sharing aspects and messages that were affirming and uplifting. I spent 6 months as Gospel Principles teacher in the latter stages of activity and focused solely on teaching messages that were common ground and mutually uplifting. My problem was that the common ground became increasingly limited. 

(I like the idea of a "response council" to your specific situation too... but appreciate it might not be what you're looking for).

It's really nice to recognize there are others who've been through this.  What you say here really hits home.  Thanks.  If I end up staying I'm certain most of these types of feelings and issues will remain.  I just have to figure out how much of a problem I am...whether I bring more of a loss to the group than what I add to it. 

[bluebell]

Just now, stemelbow said:

I'm not sure what you're talking about.  Sacrament is nothing but worship in my view.  I thought I was clear there.  Sorry for the confusion. 

Sorry, i'm not sure what you're saying either.  

Maybe if i ask the question a different way.  Do you believe that taking the sacrament is an ordinance that is essential to your spiritual well being?

[RevTestament]

3 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

My wife is really tired of going and doesn't want to go moreso than I.  I think it'd be easier for me if it weren't for her filling me with what she doesn't appreciate about Church so often.  I love her and support her though, so that's not stopping.  She feels far more lied to/betrayed than I ever have.  She has less trust in the organization than I do.

I have a long-time member neighbor in this boat. She just has never really felt a connection to the church, but they are both wonderful people. 

May I offer that "lied to" is really not an accurate description. "Lying" involves an intentional falsification of the facts, etc. I believe the Church leadership has tried to offer positive, affirming, "faith-promoting" history and stories of the gospel. 

This has resulted in "whitewashing" church history, overlooking flaws of JS, etc, to the point that perhaps it has somewhat "caught up" to the church in this modern, cynical age when people are questioning the very roots of Christianity and the Bible. However, I think most every church and organization is "guilty" of this to some extent. Ours less so since many negative facts were recorded by members who were strongly encouraged to keep their own private history in the form of journals. So perhaps, when the subject comes up, it would do well to discuss that many of the "negative facts" are available because JS and the Church were so forward about keeping their own histories. Thus, because of this habit not present in other churches, we have warts recorded in our history which otherwise would not be there to "disillusion" people. Would they be happier if these warts were not recorded at all? Yet, they are recorded and this makes them "disillusioned?" There is a certain incongruence there in my mind...

[stemelbow]

34 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Coming out of a short lived MD&D retirement to say: This is why I no longer attend...it became emotionally and mentally too unhealthy for me to do so.  I could not attend lessons that taught belief in a literal BoM that historically took place, or in a Jesus that was anything more than a wise man, or listen to lessons that praised JS or BY, two men I found to be intellectually offensive or hear another  lesson on how we all need to be examples of truth and honesty knowing full well that the church failed to live up to that standard or hear someone promote the official stance of the church against the LGBT community...nothing has changed in the years since I stopped attending...the church pushes the the same old tripe, which is their right.  Members of the church have the right to meet with like minded people who share a common worldview...out of respect for that right...it was best I not attend to disrupt that right.

 

Answer this question:  Do you feel you can attend and be your true self?  If yes then attend...if No then why bother attending something where you can't be yourself?

In answer to your question, I don't know.  It may be partly because I have yet to really come to terms with myself.  or it could be it's part yes and part no.  Or it could simply be I'm not sure what the hell it means to be true to myself.  I mean I think I am, but I also realize I hold back, or fall in line in many ways.  Then again, when you think about that, I don't know how one ever would avoid falling in line in certain instances or holding oneself back in life. 

[stemelbow]

16 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Sorry, i'm not sure what you're saying either.  

Maybe if i ask the question a different way.  Do you believe that taking the sacrament is an ordinance that is essential to your spiritual well being?

 Not sure how to answer you.  I go to Church and as part of my worship I take the sacrament, in what I'd call, good faith.  Does that mean I'd lose any spiritual sense if I stopped attending and did not partake?  Probably not.  Does it mean to me that others who do not partake of the sacrament have no spiritual life?  no.  So "essential" may not work. 

But I do feed off the ordinance. 

[hope_for_things]

22 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

It's really nice to recognize there are others who've been through this.  What you say here really hits home.  Thanks.  If I end up staying I'm certain most of these types of feelings and issues will remain.  I just have to figure out how much of a problem I am...whether I bring more of a loss to the group than what I add to it. 

I'm not sure that we can honestly assess whether what we contribute is a net positive or net negative for the community.  Even if your comments contribute to contentious lessons from time to time, how do we evaluate the effects of our participation to a group?  If you remove yourself, you're having an impact, if you stay you're having an impact.  Who's to say whether that is positive or negative in the grand scheme of things, I'm not sure its possible.  

Also, I have to say that part of why I decided to stop attending, is that I felt like it would be important for me to show an example to my family and friends of someone who lives a good life, but doesn't attend church regularly.  Too many cautionary tales about losing the light/spirit for those that leave the church, and having a life that spirals downward.  I want to show that old stereotype to be untrue.  

Edited December 12, 2016 by hope_for_things

[CV75]

17 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

It's really nice to recognize there are others who've been through this.  What you say here really hits home.  Thanks.  If I end up staying I'm certain most of these types of feelings and issues will remain.  I just have to figure out how much of a problem I am...whether I bring more of a loss to the group than what I add to it. 

I think feeling like a problem or a liability is very different from not feeling welcome or that you don't fit in where you would like to be.

[stemelbow]

13 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I have a long-time member neighbor in this boat. She just has never really felt a connection to the church, but they are both wonderful people. 

May I offer that "lied to" is really not an accurate description. "Lying" involves an intentional falsification of the facts, etc. I believe the Church leadership has tried to offer positive, affirming, "faith-promoting" history and stories of the gospel. 

This has resulted in "whitewashing" church history, overlooking flaws of JS, etc, to the point that perhaps it has somewhat "caught up" to the church in this modern, cynical age when people are questioning the very roots of Christianity and the Bible. However, I think most every church and organization is "guilty" of this to some extent. Ours less so since many negative facts were recorded by members who were strongly encouraged to keep their own private history in the form of journals. So perhaps, when the subject comes up, it would do well to discuss that many of the "negative facts" are available because JS and the Church were so forward about keeping their own histories. Thus, because of this habit not present in other churches, we have warts recorded in our history which otherwise would not be there to "disillusion" people. Would they be happier if these warts were not recorded at all? Yet, they are recorded and this makes them "disillusioned?" There is a certain incongruence there in my mind...

I, in part, agree.  I think there was some effort to cover-up and control the message over the years and the sentiment and practice remains there today.  But I think there's at least some intent and effort to avoid doing that. 

[stemelbow]

2 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think feeling like a problem or a liability is very different from not feeling welcome or that you don't fit in where you would like to be.

Sure.  Different issues. 

[HappyJackWagon]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

I meant to make this more of a discussion about is there a point in which someone is better off not going, or if the ward is better off if the person does not go, as well.  I'm curious if I'm more of a burden, or if it's me bringing people down type of stuff too. 

Thanks for the comments.  I'll get back to this later. 

Obviously, each person has to determine whether the level of benefit outweighs the cost. Do you get more out of it than what it costs you to go?

What are the costs of going? Time you could be doing something different, temporary discomfort, boredom, gas money,  (are there others)

What are the benefits of going? Time with family, participating in a community (even if marginally), time to contemplate or read, perhaps the ability to serve by teaching a class or handing out programs etc,, some kind of communion with God by at least trying to connect.

What are the costs and benefits of not going? You get the idea.

Is there a way you can maximize the benefit and minimize the cost by adjusting your activity or supplementing it with a different activity?

That said, I feel for you. Church was rough yesterday. I admit that I didn't try all that hard. At some point it feels like putting forth the effort doesn't yield the result so I try less and seem to have the same lackluster experience.

Personally, I think the most important thing to do is connect with God. If it's not happening at your usual services I think you owe it to yourself to seek out connection in other ways. But I know that is often easier said than done.

[bluebell]

19 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

 Not sure how to answer you.  I go to Church and as part of my worship I take the sacrament, in what I'd call, good faith.  Does that mean I'd lose any spiritual sense if I stopped attending and did not partake?  Probably not.  Does it mean to me that others who do not partake of the sacrament have no spiritual life?  no.  So "essential" may not work. 

But I do feed off the ordinance. 

I wondered because, without the sacrament (and believing that it's done with proper and necessary authority), you could probably go to any church.  So, if the LDS church isn't bringing you closer to God, maybe try out some different ones and see if they help you get more out of your sabbath worship.

 

[stemelbow]

16 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Obviously, each person has to determine whether the level of benefit outweighs the cost. Do you get more out of it than what it costs you to go?

What are the costs of going? Time you could be doing something different, temporary discomfort, boredom, gas money,  (are there others)

What are the benefits of going? Time with family, participating in a community (even if marginally), time to contemplate or read, perhaps the ability to serve by teaching a class or handing out programs etc,, some kind of communion with God by at least trying to connect.

What are the costs and benefits of not going? You get the idea.

Is there a way you can maximize the benefit and minimize the cost by adjusting your activity or supplementing it with a different activity?

That said, I feel for you. Church was rough yesterday. I admit that I didn't try all that hard. At some point it feels like putting forth the effort doesn't yield the result so I try less and seem to have the same lackluster experience.

Personally, I think the most important thing to do is connect with God. If it's not happening at your usual services I think you owe it to yourself to seek out connection in other ways. But I know that is often easier said than done.

Back in college my friend contemplated marrying a girl.  She was ready and wanted them to get married.  He felt pressured and decided to write out the costs and benefits.  After his analysis he went on to propose.  A week or so later, she looked in his backpack while he was in the bathroom and found his paper.  A couple of days of fighting later and they were done. 

Maybe I'm afraid to write it out because HF will see my paper and put a stop to it all.  Didn't someone compare Church to a marriage relationship? 

 

[stemelbow]

8 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I wondered because, without the sacrament (and believing that it's done with proper and necessary authority), you could probably go to any church.  So, if the LDS church isn't bringing you closer to God, maybe try out some different ones and see if they help you get more out of your sabbath worship.

 

I see.  I've tried.  While I usually enjoy attending different churches, its' not the same for me.  It's interesting.  It's cool.  But ti's not the same.  My home worship community is LDS.  I don't know that that'll change. 

[LittleNipper]

3 hours ago, stemelbow said:

It's been a long time since I've felt like I've gotten anything out of my attendance at Church.  I've always put the onus on me when it comes to getting something out of Church and it usually gets me thinking, while I'm there, about how I can utilize what's coming at me.  I attend the full block each week and some who are close to me wonder why I do.  It remains my method of worship--that's the main reason.  But I admit the meetings are pointless to me, other than just giving me time to sit and ponder.  I can't really contribute.  I used to try but it really just upset people, so I mostly stay silent. 

Anyway, what's your take on someone who doesn't really care for the messages shared and can't really participate?  Should he even be there?  For the most part I feel out of place, now, and don't really feel welcome anyway.  But, to be fair to me, I don't see myself doing the worship thing without Church. 

Thanks for your thoughts.  I'm curious if anyone else feels similar too. 

I would suggest you try another church --- preferably a small one. Such love visitors. Go to one that preaches only the Bible and be in prayer. God will find a place for you if you desire to follow Him.

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I see.  I've tried.  While I usually enjoy attending different churches, its' not the same for me.  It's interesting.  It's cool.  But ti's not the same.  My home worship community is LDS.  I don't know that that'll change. 

So it sounds like you do get something out of church that is unique to the LDS faith.  Is it just familiarity do you think, or something else?

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, LittleNipper said:

I would suggest you try another church --- preferably a small one. Such love visitors. Go to one that preaches only the Bible and be in prayer. God will find a place for you if you desire to follow Him.

To each his own, but going to a Church that preaches only the Bible, sounds far too painful for me.  I'm far too much a proponent of a non-literal reading of scripture, far too convinced by scholarship focused on biblical criticism to treat it as anything more than sincere efforts of past people mostly pseudonymously trying to convey their messages of God.  Scripture to me is far to expansive to be limited to old writings of ancient Israelites. 

But I appreciate the suggestion. 

[Tacenda]

Stemelbow: "To each his own, but going to a Church that preaches only the Bible, sounds far too painful for me.  I'm far too much a proponent of a non-literal reading of scripture, far too convinced by scholarship focused on biblical criticism to treat it as anything more than sincere efforts of past people mostly pseudonymously trying to convey their messages of God.  Scripture to me is far to expansive to be limited to old writings of ancient Israelites. 

But I appreciate the suggestion." 

Me: That's how I think, I like that the church is fluid in it's teachings. 

Edited December 12, 2016 by Tacenda

[HappyJackWagon]

7 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

I would suggest you try another church --- preferably a small one. Such love visitors. Go to one that preaches only the Bible and be in prayer. God will find a place for you if you desire to follow Him.

When I visit other churches I enjoy the larger ones so I think your personality and level of commitment to the other church play a role. Personally, part of my discomfort with church is feeling alienated from the ward community so I find myself gravitating to a larger church where it's easier to keep to myself without investing in community again.

Quote

Stemelbow: Maybe I'm afraid to write it out because HF will see my paper and put a stop to it all.  Didn't someone compare Church to a marriage relationship? 

Of course, if you believe God has the power to put a stop to it all if He found out you would probably also believe that God already knows the deepest feelings of your heart, so writing it down is really just an exercise to organize thoughts in a rational way   I find writing to be very therapeutic, hence my participation here.

[stemelbow]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

So it sounds like you do get something out of church that is unique to the LDS faith.  Is it just familiarity do you think, or something else?

Oh no doubt one reason that keeps me in Church is it's been my practice my whole life.  It's second nature to me.  If I were raised in a different Church it might be quite different for me.  I don't see any other Church as better than LDS (and I might not see LDS better than some others), so why would I go away from that which is familiar to me?  There'd really be no point.