Heaven or Las Vegas (The Verse-by-Verse Bible Preacher vs. The DJ)

[waveslider]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Did the church have these at one time? Verse by verse? 

Not that I am aware of. I went to Bible studies offered by other Christian sects.

[Calm]

8 hours ago, Gray said:

As a lifelong Sunday School attender, I'm not sure we miss out on many of those  

We miss out on others' version, not saying we don't have our own.

[Calm]

Victor Ludlow was an excellent OT prof at BYU.  I think I took half my religion courses from him, mostly OT based.

Tacenda, have you read the institute manuals for OT?  The OT scholars I know aren't totally thrilled with it and Are hoping the updated versions come soon, but it is probably the closest to what you are thinking.  There is also a NT manual (perhaps more than one).  Also a D&C manual (not the Church History one, teaches by section and verse).

These would probably be the easiest for you to access from an LDS POV.  There is a four volume pretty close to verse by verse commentary on the D&C by Robinson and Garrett, which is good...though it avoids the controversy.  Unlike institute manuals not free, but IMO well worth the price if you are sincerely wanting to learn from a faithful LDS POV.

The question is do you want to learn the teachings and doctrine, want to learn what nonLDS think about the Bible, or want to learn the controversies behind and debates about the verses.

 

[Calm]

Ben Spackman does an excellent job with adding supplemental info for Gospel Doctrine class:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/benjaminthescribe/

This year coming up is CH & DC, but if you want to focus on the Bible first, you could read his blog archives:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/benjaminthescribe/archive-index/

For the New Testament, there is also Kevin .barney's online Footnotes to the New Testament, which provides extensive info by verses:

https://bycommonconsent.com/2006/08/28/footnotes-to-the-new-testament/

Book of Mormon Central provides many additional details through their KnowWhys, which you can have mailed daily (weekly?) to you.  They are also working on interactive text and may already have a verse by verse commentary (haven't explored it lately).

https://bycommonconsent.com/2006/08/28/footnotes-to-the-new-testament/

Tacenda, I am going to be blunt.  If you don't take advantage of at least some of these resources, you are not serious about wanting to learn verse by verse.  I am not saying this is a bad thing, just that it is better to be realistic about one's desires as that is the only way we will actually be fulfilled.  Don't waste time with moaning for things you don't really want.  There may be other good things you are desiring...perhaps what you really want is to take about scriptures with people face to face, but if the primary drive is to learn, then these should answer that desire.

If they don't catch your attention, then there is something else you need and it is better to look seriously for that than just post here wistful comments about how you want to study scriptures in depth.  We end up doing what we want if the opportunity is given us.  If we have the opportunity and we don't take it up, it is not our true desire, something else is more important to us and we only waste time and do ourselves harm by pretending we want something we don't for whatever reason.

It can be very hard to figure out what we want, but a good starting place is to stop pretending to ourselves to want stuff because it makes us feel good about ourselves.  There are things that are hard to get that we are honest in wanting, but if something is easy and we still don't do it, it is not a true desire (may be close, but probably not if as easy as simply studying online and yet we don't do it).

If the problem is you have a hard time reading, there are still podcasts/recorded shows discussing scriptures you could watch instead.  Let me know if you want links to those.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Calm

[Tacenda]

30 minutes ago, Calm said:

Ben Spackman does an excellent job with adding supplemental info for Gospel Doctrine class:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/benjaminthescribe/

This year coming up is CH & DC, but if you want to focus on the Bible first, you could read his blog archives:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/benjaminthescribe/archive-index/

For the New Testament, there is also Kevin .barney's online Footnotes to the New Testament, which provides extensive info by verses:

https://bycommonconsent.com/2006/08/28/footnotes-to-the-new-testament/

Book of Mormon Central provides many additional details through their KnowWhys, which you can have mailed daily (weekly?) to you.  They are also working on interactive text and may already have a verse by verse commentary (haven't explored it lately).

https://bycommonconsent.com/2006/08/28/footnotes-to-the-new-testament/

Tacenda, I am going to be blunt.  If you don't take advantage of at least some of these resources, you are not serious about wanting to learn verse by verse.  I am not saying this is a bad thing, just that it is better to be realistic about one's desires as that is the only way we will actually be fulfilled.  Don't waste time with moaning for things you don't really want.  There may be other good things you are desiring...perhaps what you really want is to take about scriptures with people face to face, but if the primary drive is to learn, then these should answer that desire.

If they don't catch your attention, then there is something else you need and it is better to look seriously for that than just post here wistful comments about how you want to study scriptures in depth.  We end up doing what we want if the opportunity is given us.  If we have the opportunity and we don't take it up, it is not our true desire, something else is more important to us and we only waste time and do ourselves harm by pretending we want something we don't for whatever reason.

It can be very hard to figure out what we want, but a good starting place is to stop pretending to ourselves to want stuff because it makes us feel good about ourselves.  There are things that are hard to get that we are honest in wanting, but if something is easy and we still don't do it, it is not a true desire (may be close, but probably not if as easy as simply studying online and yet we don't do it).

If the problem is you have a hard time reading, there are still podcasts/recorded shows discussing scriptures you could watch instead.  Let me know if you want links to those.

You read my mind, I have a tough time reading scriptures when reading independently. It would be nice to know the meaning or what the scripture is really about. On Shawn McRaney's website he has meetings but I'm not able to attend them. http://www.bornagainmormon.com/meetings/ But it's not pro LDS either.

I don't understand why the church doesn't offer these kinds of meetings for older members that are non students, though I really am a student. I know in the past they did, maybe they still do? I will definitely try to do a better job on my home, but fear I'll fall off the wagon and lose interest again. 

 

[Calm]

You can attend any BYU class for minimal cost once a senior.  You probably could crash any UVU or other college ones if you want.  Check to see if your stake offers adult institute classes if you want it closer.

BYUtv offers Roundtable discussions online as well as on TV.  My mom watches them regularly.

You should also check LDS.org media library and the Mormon Channel for material.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Calm

[boblloyd91]

38 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

You read my mind, I have a tough time reading scriptures when reading independently. It would be nice to know the meaning or what the scripture is really about. On Shawn McRaney's website he has meetings but I'm not able to attend them. http://www.bornagainmormon.com/meetings/ But it's not pro LDS either.

I don't understand why the church doesn't offer these kinds of meetings for older members that are non students, though I really am a student. I know in the past they did, maybe they still do? I will definitely try to do a better job on my home, but fear I'll fall off the wagon and lose interest again. 

 

Institute is always available. If I recall you live in Utah right? That may be an option.

[Tacenda]

26 minutes ago, boblloyd91 said:

Institute is always available. If I recall you live in Utah right? That may be an option.

I checked in my area, they do offer a Book of Mormon course. Maybe it has to be a Bible year. https://arc.byu.edu/davis

Thanks Calm and Bob!!

ETA: I just found a women's Bible Study group near my home at a Bible church, although I'm a little scared to do that. It's not my element, I guess if I go enough it could be. And it's my insurance man's church, that has been working on me to attend, he's a former LDS guy. 

It's so hard to know what to do about my own faith when I have so many doubts.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Tacenda

[Calm]

Do you want to live this way the rest of your life?  Do you want in five years' time to be able to look back at your posts right now and see a change or just the same sort of doubts and anxiety being expressed?

I know it can be very hard when you suffer from anxiety in general to deal with your specific anxieties, but it is worth it.  Do something that almost feels right if nothing feels right.  Just try something new so you can stop chewing yourself up for not trying.

[Five Solas]

11 hours ago, Tacenda said:

...

ETA: I just found a women's Bible Study group near my home at a Bible church, although I'm a little scared to do that. It's not my element, I guess if I go enough it could be.

...

I suggest you visit & report back, Tacenda

:0)

--Erik

 

[CV75]

On 12/4/2016 at 10:49 PM, Five Solas said:

Spent last week in Las Vegas

While it may have worked for your needs at the time, I think this is a superior method than relying upon one individual's expertise for understanding the scriptures: https://www.lds.org/manual/teaching-in-the-saviors-way?lang=eng  "The goal of every gospel teacher—every parent, every formally called teacher, every home teacher and visiting teacher, and every follower of Christ—is to teach the pure doctrine of the gospel, by the Spirit, in order to help God’s children build their faith in the Savior and become more like Him." Not that that there is anything wrong with learning about the scriptures, we emphasize learning the gospel from the scriptures.

The LDS approach to congregational scriptural learning is more of a group study and discovery process: “Appoint among yourselves a teacher, and let not all be spokesmen at once; but let one speak at a time and let all listen unto his sayings, that when all have spoken that all may be edified of all, and that every man may have an equal privilege.” (D&C 88:122).

 

[Five Solas]

22 hours ago, bluebell said:

Not all protestants agree with you.

This Baptist preacher for example recognizes that there is truth in the BOM and that it does not contradict the bible (not any more than the bible contradicts the bible, anyway  )

The Baptist Version of the Book of Mormon

If ever there was an exception to prove the rule...

;0)

Worth noting he never actually calls himself a preacher or pretends he has a congregation to preach to.  You did him that honor.  But for a modest fee, he will come speak at your stake fireside.  And for those LDS desperately wishing their Book of Mormon could be taken seriously by someone (anyone!) outside of Mormonism--he'll scratch your itch. 

And he has pamphlets for sale, $3. 

--Erik

[bluebell]

59 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

If ever there was an exception to prove the rule...

;0)

Worth noting he never actually calls himself a preacher or pretends he has a congregation to preach to.  You did him that honor.  But for a modest fee, he will come speak at your stake fireside.  And for those LDS desperately wishing their Book of Mormon could be taken seriously by someone (anyone!) outside of Mormonism--he'll scratch your itch. 

And he has pamphlets for sale, $3. 

--Erik

He called himself a minister.  Are preachers and ministers different?  I've always thought they were basically the same thing. According to the article, he's a licensed baptist minister who has pastored baptist churches for years.  Is that worth noting?

Whatever he is though, he seems to have a hit a nerve with you.    

Edited December 6, 2016 by bluebell

[thesometimesaint]

14 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I checked in my area, they do offer a Book of Mormon course. Maybe it has to be a Bible year. https://arc.byu.edu/davis

Thanks Calm and Bob!!

ETA: I just found a women's Bible Study group near my home at a Bible church, although I'm a little scared to do that. It's not my element, I guess if I go enough it could be. And it's my insurance man's church, that has been working on me to attend, he's a former LDS guy. 

It's so hard to know what to do about my own faith when I have so many doubts.

Going to a different church won't help you there. Even if not directly Anti Mormon they put their own spin on the Scriptures. 

[pogi]

On ‎12‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 9:47 AM, bluebell said:

Not all protestants agree with you.

This Baptist preacher for example recognizes that there is truth in the BOM and that it does not contradict the bible (not any more than the bible contradicts the bible, anyway  )

The Baptist Version of the Book of Mormon

Wow!  Thank you for introducing me to this fascinating man!  Apparently he has addressed BYU religion education faculty on campus.  This is an interesting article on his address, which affirms that he is a "preacher" by the way:

https://religion.byu.edu/news/witness-restoration#_edn1

Quote

For about an hour that morning, this Baptist preacher recounted his conversion to the Book of Mormon and explained why he preaches in his Baptist congregations from both the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

 

Edited December 6, 2016 by pogi

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, pogi said:

Wow!  Thank you for introducing me to this fascinating man!  Apparently he has addressed BYU religion education faculty on campus.  This is an interesting article on his address, which affirms that he is a "preacher" by the way:

https://religion.byu.edu/news/witness-restoration#_edn1

 

Thanks for sharing some more info on him.  I wonder if his congregation knows that he shares the book of mormon with them?  That's pretty crazy!

[waveslider]

2 hours ago, Five Solas said:

If ever there was an exception to prove the rule...

;0)

Worth noting he never actually calls himself a preacher or pretends he has a congregation to preach to.  You did him that honor.  But for a modest fee, he will come speak at your stake fireside.  And for those LDS desperately wishing their Book of Mormon could be taken seriously by someone (anyone!) outside of Mormonism--he'll scratch your itch. 

And he has pamphlets for sale, $3. 

--Erik

He's not the only one. On my mission in Kentucky I have seen other Baptist preachers gain a testimony of the BoM, Some decided not to get baptized even with the testimony that the LDS church was the true Church on Earth, because they had a family to take care of and being a preacher was the only lively hood they ever knew and were scared that they wouldn't be able to provide for their wife and children. I actually went and checked Bluebell's link to see if it was one that I know, but that is a different one. It was too bad that we weren't allowed to teach about the welfare system. Converts weren't to know about that until after baptism because the church would be over run with poor people joining just to receive welfare instead of because they actually gained a testimony.

Anyway there are more than one exception to the so called rule in this case.

[halconero]

On 12/4/2016 at 8:49 PM, Five Solas said:

Spent last week in Las Vegas, stayed at the Wynn resort on the strip.  All for work, attending AWS re:Invent with colleagues and clients.  (Okay, there might have been a little time at a craps table--the only game I'll play.)  Donny & Marie perform there on occasion—don’t judge. 

 

;0)

 

The conference crescendo came with a Thursday night party for the 30,000 participants (quite a large event, unless you’re Salesforce).  A famous DJ was flown in to work the audio/visual magic, Martin Gerrix.  And he knew his craft.  Someone shot a brief video late in the evening, you can see it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEtjryeY0RI

 

For a while I was at the very front, enjoying the spectacle.  And as I stood there listening to him mix pieces of songs and splice them into new sounds, I thought how very different it was from my humble DJing efforts back in the day.  And then I had another thought: Modern DJing is a bit like my old religion, Mormonism.  It does to Scripture what the modern DJ does with songs—take a bit here, take a verse there, mix in some modern revelation and voilà—a fresh context, sounding familiar yet exciting and new. 

 

Back in January, 2005 I had my first encounter with verse-by-verse, chapter-by-chapter expositional-style preaching.  It was on the Book of Genesis and I got hooked, returning to the evening service each Sunday for the next installment (while attending LDS services in the morning).  Therein I discovered the Bible is remarkably coherent and compelling, all of its own.  And I’ve no doubt God used the experience to change me and bring me to faith. 

 

Not every Christian preacher preaches through entire books of the Bible, of course.  And those who do don’t necessarily do so exclusively, meaning they may do a topical sermon series from time to time. Nothing inherently wrong with that.  But in Mormonism, a verse-by-verse exposition of an entire book of the Bible—well, that simply isn’t done.  Nowhere in the ~ 3 hour weekly block.  Nowhere in seminary or Institute programs.  Nowhere in firesides or YSA family home evenings.  All the many hours/week devout LDS consume with meetings, instruction, service, etc.—they never find time for this…

 

Well, why not?   

 

--Erik

PS.  On an unrelated note, if you're a single female who wants to maximize her odds vis-a-vis males, of those 30,000 attending Amazon Web Services re:Invent 2016—maybe 3,000 were women.

PPS.  Yes, I worked in a Cocteau Twins reference in the title.

__________________________________________________

Burn down the disco
Hang the blessed DJ
Because the music that they constantly play
It says nothing to me about my life

--The Smiths, 1986

 

You realize that the Bible's coherence partly comes through that same literary DJ'ing right? Take the experience you had with Genesis. Are we talking about the Elohist, the Yahwist or Priestly account of creation? 'Cus what you're reading from is a synthesis.

[BlueDreams]

On 12/5/2016 at 11:35 AM, Tacenda said:

It's a strange phenom with some LDS people. I will have to admit, I was not like you, wish I were. When in a neighborhood years ago, when my children were young, there were a couple of neighbor kids that went to a bible school in the summer and I felt bad for them, poor kids I thought. Wow, what a dummy I was. 

I'm glad you said some, because that's always a little weird to me. My one brother went to a bible camp when he was little with his friends and my mom agreed to it. And my youngest brother went to a catholic pre-school/day care as a child that he loved. Mom also went through this self-healing process of attending way way too many evangelical/non-denom christian services for weeks (I say way too many cuz she was kinda gone half of sunday it felt like and it was getting annoying). I like to go to midnight mass for the singing, sometimes the rituals....mostly just the singing. I never fully got why others would be allergic to other faiths. The only christian faith I ever had a major prejudice towards was baptist, but I had a number of good reasons for that that I had to work through.

 

As for the Bible study. I don't know if I'd go. I won't lie. I liked my religion courses at BYU that would go through books. But I've attended institute maybe 3-5 times in my life....maybe. And it's not an overt favoritism of one book v. another. I prefer the format for sunday school as long as people are actually in a questions discussion oriented mode. But I have to go. Going to be late for work if I don't!

With luv,

BD 

[mnn727]

On 12/5/2016 at 0:48 AM, Tacenda said:

If I were to approach the goal of teaching the whole New Testament in random fashion, it would be a hopeless maze to lead people through....

One other thought: neither the Old Testament nor the New Testament was written as a collection of verses to be thrown into the air and allowed to fall back wherever they might. 

If I received five letters in the mail one day, it would make no sense to read a sentence or two out of one, skip two, read a few sentences out of another, and go to the next one and read a few out of that, and on and on.

What Sunday School class are you attending?

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, mnn727 said:

What Sunday School class are you attending?

What you quoted me as saying, isn't me, it is part of a quote in my post. 

[oats]

I enjoy topical study (splicing excerpts from throughout the scriptures) over a verse-by-verse study. I also find it more useful. That is my personal preference.

The topical studies enhance my verse by verse studies. They add a great ability to contextualize, especially in regards to the teachings and principles. A verse-by-verse kind of study might align better with historical study. That is not really what I look for in the scriptures which is probably why I prefer a topical study more prone to principles or something similar.

There are the Old and New Testament institute manuals that I recall might be more along the lines of a verse-by-verse kind of study? Have you seen those? How does their content differ from the classes or studies you are talking about?

[Five Solas]

On 12/6/2016 at 10:20 AM, halconero said:

You realize that the Bible's coherence partly comes through that same literary DJ'ing right? Take the experience you had with Genesis. Are we talking about the Elohist, the Yahwist or Priestly account of creation? 'Cus what you're reading from is a synthesis.

Have to confess, I hadn't thought of it this way.  Moses as the original Martin Garrix, "mixing" the Books of Moses/Torah. 

;0)

I do recall reading Harold Bloom's The Book of J, Bloom's effort to get back to the original Yahwist (the "J-Writer").  But to tell you the truth, I wasn't greatly persuaded.  As a side note, Bloom would go on to flatter LDS in a subsequent book, The American Religion, in which he predicted Mormonism would become the predominant religion in the American West, akin to the Southern Baptist Convention in the American South.  How different things look in 2016 then they did in the 90's!

But let's explore the tangent.  You'd consider yourself a pretty devout LDS, wouldn't you, halconero?  Does contemporary biblical scholarship along the lines of your post help or hinder the cause of Mormonism?  Does it strengthen or weaken your confidence in Joseph Smith's creation account in the Book of Abraham, for example?

--Erik

[snowflake]

On ‎12‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 2:41 PM, boblloyd91 said:

 Then it's obvious you haven't really read the Book of Mormon.....

 

Here's a blog you might be interested in http://scripturalmormonism.blogspot.com/

 

Sure I have read the BOM. And I would say that it does sound like the KJV of the Bible.  What is your point?

[CV75]

23 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

Have to confess, I hadn't thought of it this way.  Moses as the original Martin Garrix, "mixing" the Books of Moses/Torah. 

;0)

I do recall reading Harold Bloom's The Book of J, Bloom's effort to get back to the original Yahwist (the "J-Writer").  But to tell you the truth, I wasn't greatly persuaded.  As a side note, Bloom would go on to flatter LDS in a subsequent book, The American Religion, in which he predicted Mormonism would become the predominant religion in the American West, akin to the Southern Baptist Convention in the American South.  How different things look in 2016 then they did in the 90's!

But let's explore the tangent.  You'd consider yourself a pretty devout LDS, wouldn't you, halconero?  Does contemporary biblical scholarship along the lines of your post help or hinder the cause of Mormonism?  Does it strengthen or weaken your confidence in Joseph Smith's creation account in the Book of Abraham, for example?

--Erik

I think all good scholarship is helpful in the long run because those who use it in good faith can only further the cause of Mormonism, not due to the content of the material or their comprehension of it, but because of the spiritual training that acting in good faith provides.